The question cessationists must answer.

Hillsage said:

And the mostly "ungifted" church of today doesn't have the Holy Spirit that inspired the scriptures. Therein lies the perpetual chasm of our debate.

1CO 14:16 Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

"Amen" to the prayer tongues of "the spirit" of a man/woman.

1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole (Corinthian charismatic) church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

And the same "ungifted" "they" still say we're basically mad today with 'babble and gibberish.

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The scriptures (God's words) do far better than the gifts ever could. Today's "charismatic gifts" are not anything like the originals.

Billy Evmur said:

You are repeating arguments that are blown...the scriptures exhort us to covet the best gifts. Your argument therefore that the scriptures are somehow in apposition to the gifts is spurious.

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The best gifts are revealed in scripture. And your "charismatic gifts" are not in any way like the originals. If, you would spend more time in the bible, it will become obvious.

Billy Evmur said:

nonsense...on that basis Paul rubbished the church in all his letters....

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You are presenting a false agenda for Christians, and depriving those on the right track.

Dave L said:

In Acts, God distributed the gifts in the two outpourings. And then only through the hands of an apostle. Only an apostle could impart them. When the apostles died off, only the ministerial gifts remained. Tongues, prophecy. word of knowledge, signs and wonders all ceased.

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The apostolic gift is still for today.

The 12 apostles had to have seen Jesus ministry from John till his resurrection to special eye witnesses bitbthevspostles AFTER the resurrection are for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.

“ Ephesians 4 - 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:”

There were other apostles after the 12

We read of Paul, Barnabas, Timotheus, Silvanus, snd I believe Titus.

So the erroneous view that apostles and prophets have ceased is false

Here are s few scriptures to see the apostles AFTER the resurrection

1 Thessalonians 1 - 1. Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ... 1 Thessalonians 2 - 6. Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.”

Acts 13 - 1. Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them... Acts 14 - 14. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out”

Dave L said:

The scriptures (God's words) do far better than the gifts ever could.

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According to my experience it is 'hearing God's words which "PROCEEDETH from His mouth" which enables a "gifted" Christian to walk in the 'supernatural power' giftings He manifests through me or others who are biblically qualified. There's no bible record of Jesus manifesting the miraculous gifts until after He received His Spirit baptism, and that pattern holds experientially true to this day, for me.

MAT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And the scriptures weren't written by 'every word spoken', they were written as men were 'inspired' to write. That's why Paul even admits it's his opinion, as well as admitting he doesn't even know if what he wrote is the will of God. THAT is in the BIBLE you want me to blindly follow like you. I will not, I will walk not only with the knowing of the bible that 'I have', just 'like you'. I will also walk according to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD." Does that mean I will never 'miss' in what I think I'm hearing? NO! But neither will I walk in the naivety I see as revealed in your understanding of 'the bible'.

Today's "charismatic gifts" are not anything like the originals.

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You are entitled to your unsubstantiated opinion, with which I disagree. BUT, neither are 'the scriptures' of today "anything like the originals" either. 38,000 'corrections from the KJV to the NIV alone, are proof enough IMO. So you can 'trust only' in whatever translation of the bible you may have today, I will trust ALSO in hearing the 'Spirit that inspired 'the original words' written. Words which differ from the originals multiple translations today.

Hillsage said:

According to my experience it is 'hearing God's words which "PROCEEDETH from His mouth" which enables a "gifted" Christian to walk in the 'supernatural power' giftings He manifests through me or others who are biblically qualified. There's no bible record of Jesus manifesting the miraculous gifts until after He received His Spirit baptism, and that pattern holds experientially true to this day, for me.

MAT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And the scriptures weren't written by 'every word spoken', they were written as men were 'inspired' to write. That's why Paul even admits it's his opinion, as well as admitting he doesn't even know if what he wrote is the will of God. THAT is in the BIBLE you want me to blindly follow like you. I will not, I will walk not only with the knowing of the bible that 'I have', just 'like you'. I will also walk according to "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD." Does that mean I will never 'miss' in what I think I'm hearing? NO! But neither will I walk in the naivety I see as revealed in your understanding of 'the bible'.


You are entitled to your unsubstantiated opinion, with which I disagree. BUT, neither are 'the scriptures' of today "anything like the originals" either. 38,000 'corrections from the KJV to the NIV alone, are proof enough IMO. So you can 'trust only' in whatever translation of the bible you may have today, I will trust ALSO in hearing the 'Spirit that inspired 'the original words' written. Words which differ from the originals multiple translations today.

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You are not God speaking. And scripture thoroughly furnishes the believer in the things of God. If you think you supplement this, you are adding to God's word.

LoveofTruth said:

The apostolic gift is still for today.

The 12 apostles had to have seen Jesus ministry from John till his resurrection to special eye witnesses bitbthevspostles AFTER the resurrection are for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.

“ Ephesians 4 - 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:”

There were other apostles after the 12

We read of Paul, Barnabas, Timotheus, Silvanus, snd I believe Titus.

So the erroneous view that apostles and prophets have ceased is false

Here are s few scriptures to see the apostles AFTER the resurrection

1 Thessalonians 1 - 1. Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ... 1 Thessalonians 2 - 6. Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.”

Acts 13 - 1. Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them... Acts 14 - 14. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out”

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There are no apostles today. There were many in the first century who knew Jesus personally, spending time with him, being appointed by him. And these were also witnesses of his resurrection. This made one an apostle. Nobody today fulfills this criteria.

Dave L said:

You are not God speaking. And scripture thoroughly furnishes the believer in the things of God. If you think you supplement this, you are adding to God's word.

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I never said I was God speaking. That's why I'm done here, and for the same reason I quit before. You really just don't seem to understand any better than you respond.

Hillsage said:

I never said I was God speaking. That's why I'm done here, and for the same reason I quit before. You really just don't seem to understand any better than you respond.

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You are God speaking if you relay what you imagined to be him speaking and put his stamp on it.

Dave L said:

You are God speaking if you relay what you imagined to be him speaking and put his stamp on it.

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The same could be said about bible teaching.

Francis Drake said:

The same could be said about bible teaching.

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But, it's two totally different things. One is God's word, not of private interpretation. And the other your word of private interpretation.

“For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:17–20) (KJV 1900)

Dave L said:

But, it's two totally different things. One is God's word, not of private interpretation.

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Utterly wrong again.
No its NOT God's word at all. Its just someone's cruddy opinion of what God's word means. In other words, your private interpretation!

If it were just God's word, you could sack the preachers and just have recorded readings of scripture. But people like you add your own false gloss of what scripture means in order to draw people away from the real truth.

swordsman1 said:

Paul never said the 'the perfect' or 'completion' in 1 Cor 13 is the return of Christ. The fact that the 2nd coming is mentioned elsewhere in scripture does not give weight to that being the meaning in this particular passage. It is beside the point. Neither the 2nd coming nor the completion of the canon are explicitly named, so it is case of determining which of those 2 views are more favorable given the context.

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Christ's return is always within the context of everything Paul has to say. The canon is never in the context of what Paul says.

The apostles knew they were writing scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16) and that when they died there would obviously be no further apostles to write scripture. The canon would then be complete. Paul was well aware of the concept of a completed canon - he had one in his own hands, the OT. Now that they were in a new covenant era it would be perfectly reasonable for him to realise there would be a completed New Testament canon.

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You're speculating on what might have been in Paul's mind that he never alluded to. And again, we know for a fact that following the deaths of the apostles, there was no explicit effort on the part of the Church to create a definitive canon, so what is obvious is that the people Paul actually wrote those letters to did not have the same idea you have.

Deborah D said:

After 40 years of being a Christian and seeing the supernatural gifts operate in my life and in the lives of other Christians, I've reached the conclusion that Cessationism is straight from the pit of hell. God didn't end these gifts, but the devil is trying to rob God's people of gifts that we need to operate in the body of Christ.

I've also come to see that the Christian who has the gift of prophecy and uses it in the power of the Holy Spirit is like the canary in the coal mine. He/she is used by God to warn the church when they are getting off God's course. But this gift has been mostly silenced because of some who have abused it. It takes mature church leaders to allow the gifts to operate and make sure they aren't being abused, but it's doable and worth it!

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The interesting thing is that cessations sound exactly like and use exactly the same arguments and reasoning as the atheists in other areas of these forums.

Just like atheists, cessationists reason, "We don't see miracles, so there are no miracles." You can give them witness of miracles, and they respond exactly as atheists do: "You just got it wrong."

And ultimately, the purpose of cessationists is exactly the same as the purpose of atheists: To destroy the faith of the Christians they meet.

Dave L said:

But you move beyond scripture when you assume that.

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What? That is so absurd.

You are the one claiming "laying on of hands" is necessary, and when I point out that scripture does not say it's necessary, your response is that I'm moving beyond scripture, when you are the one insisting on the necessity of something that isn't even scripture.

That's the kind of tortuous twisting of scripture that we get from atheists in other parts of these forums.

RDKirk said:

Christ's return is always within the context of everything Paul has to say. The canon is never in the context of what Paul says.

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That's patently not true. We don't see Christ's return in everything Paul wrote. Far from it. And to read Christ's return into the statement 'when completion (or the perfect) comes' is reading something into scripture that isn't there.

RDKirk said:

You're speculating on what might have been in Paul's mind that he never alluded to. And again, we know for a fact that following the deaths of the apostles, there was no explicit effort on the part of the Church to create a definitive canon, so what is obvious is that the people Paul actually wrote those letters to did not have the same idea you have.

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That's not true either. Towards his end of his life, Paul told Timothy to guard the teaching he had received and to pass it on, not to expect more revelation from new apostles to come. Looks like he was expecting a completed canon to me.


(To be an apostle you had to have been an eye-witness of the resurrected Christ, and Paul said he was the last person to see Christ.)

RDKirk said:

Just like atheists, cessationists reason, "We don't see miracles, so there are no miracles." You can give them witness of miracles, and they respond exactly as atheists do: "You just got it wrong."

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Cessationists don't say that at all. God can and does perform miracles today if he so wishes (but not nearly as often as some people make out). What we deny is men being given the ability to perform miracles as they were in New Testament times. And the miracles these people claim to perform are invariably fake, such as the classic leg-lengthening parlor trick we so often see.

RDKirk said:

And ultimately, the purpose of cessationists is exactly the same as the purpose of atheists: To destroy the faith of the Christians they meet.

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How can wanting to see miracles be an expression of faith? If anything it shows a lack of faith. Do you really need to see a tangible display like a David Copperfield magic show before you will believe? Jesus told the Jews who demanded yet another miracle before they would believe in him, "It is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks a sign" (Matt 12:38-39). They had seen numerous miracles already yet they still refused to believe. No, true faith comes simply by hearing the word of God - "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." (Rom 10:17).