The great divide...

Neogaia777 said:

Look you guys can argue doctrine/false doctrine all you want, and till your blue in the face, K...

But, are you gonna help me, and perhaps others also, address the concerns that follow us never being able to be sinlessly perfect...? or not...?

Much thanks if you wish to participate,

God Bless!

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Ecclesiastes 7:20

Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

If it were possible to be perfect within ourselves ... there would be no need for Jesus.

Romans 8:10 - But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. (His righteousness)

we will one day be changed and only then become sinless - at His 2nd coming

1 Peter 1:4

to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you

God Bless.

Neogaia777 said:

I addressed some of the concerns in my prior posts (in the OP) "if sinlessness isn't possible here, why try...? (one concern)... another is sin destroying "everything" (details in post #10) Nations, people, societies, worlds...

And I also wanted to know if we are only "declared" perfect somehow in the Lord, and how does that work, or what does that look like...? (post #5)...

What does true obedience look like...? How is it achieved, and is it different from the Law...? And what does that look like...? And is "that" (whatever that is) possible...? (post #12)...

God Bless!

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Revelation 7:14
These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Neogaia777 said:

That's a nice and good scripture, but what is the point you are trying to make (assuming there is one your trying to make by that is) (and if not my mistake, sorry)...

God Bless!

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My point is those who believe in Jesus are perfect and clean through his blood.

Neogaia777 said:

Declared so, or made so...?

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Both.

Neogaia777 said:

What about Jesus saying we have to be "perfect", and all the sins he said would keep us out of the Kingdom of God (Heaven)...?

And as long and only if it Jesus or God working in us to make us perfect, and we never lose sight of that or him/them, then, is, or would it then maybe be possible...? to be, if not sinless, declared sinless, or made not guilty of any sin even though we may still sin, and in that way be perfect, or completely obedient to and in the Spirit, and if that would be different or look different from the Law, or at least, would (it/that) look different from the letter of the Law, and, finally, what would that, or all this, "look like", if it was, or if it is possible, in say a person, or individual or people group, nation, society, or whatever...?

(in theory, theorize)...

God Bless!

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Philippians 3:8, 9 I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

The "theory" is not supported biblically. We have earthly death because of sin (1st death). Without Christ ... those will die the 2nd death because of sin and because they did not accept the gift of salvation, only available through Christ Jesus.

Neogaia777 said:

I'm gonna jump ahead...

If it's later, then how are we made perfect now...?

God Bless!

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No. We are forgiven now.

Neogaia777 said:

What about Jesus saying we have to be "perfect"

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That's from Mathew chapter 5, and reading fully (i suggest the NIV), one thing you can see from the full reading is that to love an enemy is a perfect response (and one we can't do very long without Christ). Christ is saying we are to aim at this perfect response, which we can in fact do if we look to Him, pray, forgive....

This isn't the same as being fully perfect:
Luke 18:19 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus replied. "No one is good except God alone.
He said to one who didn't yet know Who He was.

Neogaia777 said:

So no one is held accountable (for sin(s))...? On what basis for that...?

God Bless!

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On the basis of the righteousness and forgiveness of Christ.

Neogaia777 said:

These two sides should not be at war with each other, or be hating one another in any way, and, beyond that, they should each be open to even considering changing their views based upon and being also open to each sides views and opinions...

How do we do that...?

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I don't hate or despise anyone who espouses a legalistic, sinless-perfection, works-based soteriology. I don't agree with them at all, but this doesn't require that I hate them. In my experience, the SAL (saved-and-lost), works-based salvation crowd tend to work from Strawmen versions of my OSAS perspective. In particular, they like to throw up the "boogeyman" of inevitable licentious immorality as a proof that OSAS is fundamentally corrupt. Of course, the fact that thousands, perhaps millions, of Christians who hold to an OSAS view don't become wicked profligates gives the SAL advocates no pause at all. It is this kind of fallacious thinking and arguing that makes finding any common ground with SAL proponents next to impossible. There are things upon which we agree but they get obscured by the over-generalizations and faulty thinking that crowds into every discussion I've had with SAL folks.

My views on soteriology have changed even in the last couple of years. My once Calvinistic views on salvation have recently migrated to a mix of Traditionalism and Molinism. I'm open, then, to well-reasoned argument and careful interpretation of Scripture altering my doctrine, but, so far, I have found precious little of either thing emanating from the SAL side.