Sola Scriptura circa 700 AD

Man on Fire

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How do you know this about Ezekiel?

A Seer is a particular thing with a particular definition.

One of the major roles of a prophet was to see The Spiritual, and report it to the Church or The Body. To be able to see what God was doing or what has happening in The Spiritual. The Spiritual has worked in particular ways.

There are Seers, for example, in Eastern Religions. Terrance Mckenna, a Doctor in The West, may be said to be a Seer or Mystic. Part of the Occult, from the Crusades on, was working to re-learn "pagan mysteries," or what men like the Court Sorcerers and wise-men in Egypt with Pharaoh, or in Babylon, or the False Prophets of Baal in Israel during Elijah's time knew. Someone in the dark, with false beliefs about God and the spiritual, may be spreading lies, and be ego centric. (Deuteronomy 13) Jesus Christ is the light of the World. Those who love Truth love Jesus.

It is a topic that hasn't been taught much in Church. It is something God taught me about. The following may be helpful:

Anywhere there are people who believe the gifts of the spirit stopped with early Christians, or there are no more prophets or prophetic seers, or that God doesn't talk to people, it may be the sign of Occult Secret Societies working to Occult Away knowledge so that mobs don't end up at their front doors, or to hamstring Christians. Christians are not children of the dark, but children of the light. (Ephesians 5:8) What happens in the dark? A Seer may end up with vision of the dark through The Spirit of God like in Ezekiel 8.
 
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redleghunter

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A Seer is a particular thing with a particular definition.

One of the major roles of a prophet was to see The Spiritual, and report it to the Church or The Body. To be able to see what God was doing or what has happening in The Spiritual. The Spiritual has worked in particular ways.

There are Seers, for example, in Eastern Religions. Terrance Mckenna, a Doctor in The West, may be said to be a Seer or Mystic. Part of the Occult, from the Crusades on, was working to re-learn "pagan mysteries," or what men like the Court Sorcerers and wise-men in Egypt with Pharaoh, or in Babylon, or the False Prophets of Baal in Israel during Elijah's time knew. Someone in the dark, with false beliefs about God and the spiritual, may be spreading lies, and be ego centric. (Deuteronomy 13) Jesus Christ is the light of the World. Those who love Truth love Jesus.

It is a topic that hasn't been taught much in Church. It is something God taught me about. The following may be helpful:

Anywhere there are people who believe the gifts of the spirit stopped with early Christians, or there are no more prophets or prophetic seers, or that God doesn't talk to people, it may be the sign of Occult Secret Societies working to Occult Away knowledge so that mobs don't end up at their front doors, or to hamstring Christians. Christians are not children of the dark, but children of the light. (Ephesians 5:8) What happens in the dark? A Seer may end up with vision of the dark through The Spirit of God like in Ezekiel 8.
My question was how do you know anything about Ezekiel?
 
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redleghunter

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Not really proof. You would need to show how the actual works of the Reformers advocated dismissing the dueterocanon books as opposed to making them part of the protocanon as did EO and Rome did.

Then show how refusing to make the dueterocanon books part of the protocanon was against any established church tradition.

Then after establishing that explain why there are differences between the OT canons of the EO and Roman Church. Then as an EO explain how even in your church tradition the Ethiopian Orthodox have more OT and NT books in their canon.

If you can address the above your assertions along with Catholic Answers become arguments worthy of response.
 
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Man on Fire

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A Seer is a particular thing with a particular definition.

One of the major roles of a prophet was to see The Spiritual, and report it to the Church or The Body. To be able to see what God was doing or what has happening in The Spiritual. The Spiritual has worked in particular ways.

There are Seers, for example, in Eastern Religions. Terrance Mckenna, a Doctor in The West, may be said to be a Seer or Mystic. Part of the Occult, from the Crusades on, was working to re-learn "pagan mysteries," or what men like the Court Sorcerers and wise-men in Egypt with Pharaoh, or in Babylon, or the False Prophets of Baal in Israel during Elijah's time knew. Someone in the dark, with false beliefs about God and the spiritual, may be spreading lies, and be ego centric. (Deuteronomy 13) Jesus Christ is the light of the World. Those who love Truth love Jesus.

It is a topic that hasn't been taught much in Church. It is something God taught me about. The following may be helpful:

My question was how do you know anything about Ezekiel?

He wrote a book. The Holy Ghost is a teacher and a councilor.

God spoke through men. Given God is speaking through men, they may be aware of the Power of the Tongue. The prophets do not contradict each other. God does not lie.
 
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redleghunter

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Gregory is using Holy Tradition to refute the Arian. Tradition has always been on the same level as scripture. As Gregory of Nyssa bases his argument on it as he would on scripture.
Gregory gave an extensive Scriptural dissertation before even mentioning the word “tradition.” He used the word once in the entire of book 4 you quoted from.

Yet quoted from at least 4 Pauline epistles and the Gospel of John.

Once again noting the “tradition” he speaks of is creedal and derived from the earlier rule of faith. Which of course was derived from the Scriptures.
 
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rjs330

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We do know because we still have their writings and we also have their traditions codified in the Church all the way from in founding at Pentecost to now.
Yes the written word , scripture, is how we know. The other codified things, we have no idea if they were set at Penticost and who set them.

Hers some examples that I have witnessed.
Traditions:
Incense used by the priest as he walks down the isle
Things spoken in Latin in the service
Kneeling and standing at certain times
When communion is given.

These are traditions. And although some of these things such as communion are spojen of in scripture the tradition of exactly how and when are not spoken of or detailed in scripture. Thus the tradition of how and when are not equal yo scripture. Which is fine. We say have communion according to your traditions, but don't say we are doing it wrong because we don't follow your tradition.
 
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Man on Fire

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Question: What does The Holy Ghost is a teacher and a councilor mean to you?

I received a prophetic calling around the age of 30. (Luke 3:23) Amos was a regular man. A shepherd when God called him. I was a regular man. I had been a Secondary School Teacher, and a US Army Veteran. I was called Fall 2013.

Summer 2014, I found myself saying, through the Spirit, things like "Muhammad is an ass, and I am going to ride him all the way to Jerusalem." I have also said things like "I may be riding some Democrats all the way to Jerusalem."

Months later, in the news, I found a news article about an Orthodox Priest riding a man like a donkey in an exorcism.

Article: VIDEO: Priest rides 'possessed' man like donkey in bizarre exorcism

Some people may have thought he was crazy. I did not. Man is made in the image of God. What man does reflects. Certain spirits may hate what said priest was doing.

Given someone were to like to read more about my testimony: Have Gun Will Travel : Christianity And The Ties That Bind | Christian Forums
 
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redleghunter

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He wrote a book. The Holy Ghost is a teacher and a councilor.

God spoke through men. Given God is speaking through men, they may be aware of the Power of the Tongue. The prophets do not contradict each other. God does not lie.
Yes we know about him from the written Holy Scriptures.

Now what definition of Sola Scriptura are you operating from?
 
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Man on Fire

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Now what definition of Sola Scriptura are you operating from?

My quote from post #95

Sola Scriptura is blinding.

Prophet Ezekiel was a Seer. He saw or had visions of the spiritual. In Ezekiel 1, Ezekiel has a vision of angels. How do those angels work? What exactly do they do?

Angels have functions. Satan was known as an accuser. Arch Angel Michael was known as mankind's advocate. In Revelations 1/3 of the angels were kicked out of heaven. What did they do? What were their functions in heaven?

Context is important. Many people who support Sola Scriptura have taken the context out of how certain scriptures work. It may blind people to how God actually works, and what the spiritual is. It may have helped "occult" away certain knowledge.

The bible says "man is made in the image of God" or our image. The Bible does not say that "What man does reflects into the spiritual." Given the context of how various Prophets operated, and things they do in obedience to God, in context of various popular media, in context of a lot of things, What man does reflects into the spiritual.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Al Masihi said:
Actually it was the same reason the “Reformers” threw out seven books out of the Bible, it simply didn’t agree to their agendas or to what they were preaching.
redleghunter said:
Prove it.
Just how does that prove your charge? That there a settled canon which Catholics uniformly held to, or had to? And that the deuterocanonical (or Deuteros for short, Apocrypha to us) books were rejected before they all taught contrary to distinctive Protestant teachings? No, that is not what your source proves. As for what it attempts, consistent with the sophistry arrogant "Catholic Answers" is known for, let us look at pertinent assertions of what it does argue, see here (just posted in response to you):

Refuting Catholic Answers How to Defend the Deuterocanonicals

God’s written word was entrusted to the Jews, but he never provided them with an inspired table of contents.

Neither has Rome, thus the distinction CA attempts to make here is negated.

• They divided their sacred writings into three parts: the law, the prophets, and the writings (which were canonized in that order).

Which tripartite canon is what we see being referred to in the Lord's instruction to His disciples in Luke 24:

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Luke 24:44)

Which is understood as being the Palestinian canon held to by those who sat in the seat of Moses, and which the ancient 1st century Jewish historian Josephus numbered as 22 books, and which is understood as correspondent to the 39 book Protestant canon, which divides books the Jews referred to as single works.

Answering the charges of an anti-Semite named Apion at the end of the first century A.D., Josephus says:

“We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time....” — Josephus, Against Apion, 1,8 (38-41)

"...the pseudepigraphical work 4 Ezra (probably written about A.D. 1208)...admits that only twenty-four Scriptures have circulated publicly since Ezra's time." — Robert C. Newman, "THE COUNCIL OF JAMNIA AND THE OLD TESTAMENT CANON," Westminster Theological Journal 38.4 (Spr. 1976) 319-348

Cyril of Jerusalem, whose list rejected the apocrypha (except for Baruch) exhorts his readers to “read the Divine Scriptures, the twenty-two books of the Old Testament, these that have been translated by the Seventy-two Interpreters,” the latter referring to the Septuagint but not as including the apocrypha. (Cyril of Jerusalem on the Canon of Scripture)

And which means that the 39 book Protestant canon is more ancient than that of Rome's, as it corresponds to a ancient canon held by Palestinian Jews from before the third century, and which is affirmed in Catholic scholarship:

“the protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon. (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217)

By the time of Christ, the law—and most likely the prophets—was set in number, but the writings were not yet closed.
Not yet universally closed, yes, but which was also the case for most of Rome's history, yet nor is the canon universally settled today in all that is called Christianity.

In Jesus’ time, the Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the law but rejected the prophets and writings. The Pharisees accepted all three. Other Jews used a Greek version (the Septuagint) that included the seven disputed books, known as the deuterocanonicals. Still other Jews used a version of the canon that is reflected in the Septaguint and included versions of the seven books in question in their original Hebrew or Aramaic.

Which is is simply ignorance and or erroneous or dubious (at best) statements deceptively presented as facts. For this claim presumes that the Septuagint contained all the apocryphal books at that time, but for which there is no historical evidence. The earliest existing Greek manuscripts which contain some of them date from the 4th Century and are understood to have been placed therein by Christians.

Philo of Alexandria (1st c A.D.) states that only the Torah (the first 5 books of the O.T.) was commissioned to be translated, leaving the rest of the O.T. following in later centuries, and in an order that is not altogether clear, nor do all LXX manuscripts have the same apocryphal books and names.

British scholar R. T. Beckwith states,

Philo of Alexandria's writings show it to have been the same as the Palestinian. He refers to the three familiar sections, and he ascribes inspiration to many books in all three, but never to any of the Apocrypha....The Apocrypha were known in the church from the start, but the further back one goes, the more rarely are they treated as inspired. (Roger T. Beckwith, "The Canon of the Old Testament" in Phillip Comfort, The Origin of the Bible [Wheaton: Tyndale House, 2003] pp. 57-64)

It is understood that manuscripts of anything like the capacity of Codex Alexandrinus were not used in the first centuries of the Christian era, and since in the second century AD the Jews seem largely to have discarded the Septuagint…there can be no real doubt that the comprehensive codices of the Septuagint, which start appearing in the fourth century AD, are all of Christian origin.

Nor is there agreement between the codices which the Apocrypha include...Moreover, all three codices [Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus], according to Kenyon, were produced in Egypt, yet the contemporary Christian lists of the biblical books drawn up in Egypt by Athanasius and (very likely) pseudo-Athanasius are much more critical, excluding all apocryphal books from the canon, and putting them in a separate appendix. (Roger Beckwith, [Anglican priest, Oxford BD and Lambeth DD], The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church [Eerdmans 1986], p. 382, 383; Triablogue: The legendary Alexandrian canon)

Edward Earle Ellis attests,
“No two Septuagint codices contain the same apocrypha, and no uniform Septuagint ‘Bible’ was ever the subject of discussion in the patristic church. In view of these facts the Septuagint codices appear to have been originally intended more as service books than as a defined and normative canon of Scripture,” (E. E. Ellis, The Old Testament in Early Christianity [Baker 1992], 34-35.

Furthermore, if quoting from some of the Septuagint means the whole is sanctioned, then since the Psalms of Solomon, which is not part of any scriptural canon, is found in copies of the Septuagint as is Psalm 151, and 3 and 4 Maccabees (Vaticanus [early 4th century] does not include any of the Maccabean books, while Sinaiticus [early 4th century] includes 1 and 4 Maccabees and Alexandrinus [early 5th century] includes 1, 2, 3, and 4 Maccabees and the Psalms of Solomon), then we would be bound to accept them as well.

Gleason Archer states,
Even in the case of the Septuagint, the apocryphal books maintain a rather uncertain existence. The Codex Vaticanus (B) lacks [besides 3 and 4] 1 and 2 Maccabees (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 1 Esdras (non-canonical, according to Rome). The Sinaiticus (Aleph) omits Baruch (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 4 Maccabees (non-canonical, according to Rome)... Thus it turns out that even the three earliest MSS or the LXX show considerable uncertainty as to which books constitute the list of the Apocrypha.. (Archer, Gleason L., Jr., "A Survey of Old Testament Introduction", Moody Press, Chicago, IL, Rev. 1974, p. 75; What are the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha?)

The German historian Martin Hengel writes,

“Sinaiticus contains Barnabas and Hermas, Alexandrinus 1 and 2 Clement.” “Codex Alexandrinus...includes the LXX as we know it in Rahlfs’ edition, with all four books of Maccabees and the fourteen Odes appended to Psalms.” “...the Odes (sometimes varied in number), attested from the fifth century in all Greek Psalm manuscripts, contain three New Testament ‘psalms’: the Magnificat, the Benedictus, the Nunc Dimittis from Luke’s birth narrative, and the conclusion of the hymn that begins with the ‘Gloria in Excelsis.’ This underlines the fact that the LXX, although, itself consisting of a collection of Jewish documents, wishes to be a Christian book.” (Martin Hengel, The Septuagint as Christian Scripture [Baker 2004], pp. 57-59)

Also,

The Targums did not include these books, nor the earliest versions of the Peshitta, and the apocryphal books are seen to have been later additions, and later versions of the LXX varied in regard to which books of the apocrypha they contained. “Nor is there agreement between the codices which of the Apocrypha include. (Eerdmans 1986), 382. The two most complete targums (translations of the Hebrew Bible into Aramaic which date from the first century to the Middel Ages) contain all the books of the Hebrew Bible except Ezra, Nehemiah and Daniel.

When the Christians claimed that they had written new scriptures, Jews from a rabbinical school in Javneh met around year 80 and, among other things, discussed the canon. They did not include the New Testament nor the seven Old Testament works and portions of Daniel and Esther. This still did not settle the Pharisee canon, since not all Jews agreed with or even knew about the decision at Javneh.

This also indicates ignorance. As WP documents, The theory that Jamnia finalised the canon, first proposed by Heinrich Graetz in 1871,[2] was popular for much of the 20th century. However, it was increasingly questioned from the 1960s onward, and the theory has been largely discredited.[3] (Council of Jamnia - Wikipedia) Sid Z. Leiman made an independent challenge for his University of Pennsylvania thesis published later as a book in 1976, in which he wrote that none of the sources used to support the theory actually mentioned books that had been withdrawn from a canon, and questioned the whole premise that the discussions were about canonicity at all, stating that they were actually dealing with other concerns entirely. Other scholars have since joined in and today the theory is largely discredited.[28]

Some scholars argue that the Jewish canon was fixed earlier by the Hasmonean dynasty.[5]
(Development of the Hebrew Bible canon - Wikipedia)

Next, Part 2
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Next, Part 2
If anything is certain, it is that there was no common canon among the Jews at the time of Christ.

Which is simply deceptive, for while there was also variant views as there are today on many things, the manifest reality is that an authoritative body (canon) of wholly inspired writings had been established by the time of Christ, and without an infallible magisterium, which Rome presumes is essential for ascertaining that is of God.

Therefore the Lord and disciples repeatedly quoted from, referenced, and referred them and others to the Scriptures as authoritative, (Matthew 21:42; 26:54,56; Mark 14:49) including reading from one of the established books in the synagogue as Scripture, (Luke 4:21) and men such as Paul reasoned with Jews likewise "from the Scriptures," and men "searched the Scriptures" in order to ascertain his veracity, (Acts 17:2,11) and there were souls who were "mighty in the Scriptures," (Acts 18:34,28) and the Lord substantiated His mission to the disciples by the Scriptures (as a tripartite canon), and opened their minds to the understanding "of the Scriptures." (Luke 24:44,45)

Yet Catholics argu that there was no authoritative canon of sacred writings! And note that those who sat in the seat of Moses, whom the Lord enjoined conditional (only Scriptural) obedience to, (Mt. 23:2) never made the canonical status of the Scriptures the Lord and His prima NT church invoked as issue, this implicitly affirming there accepted status.

At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).

None of which were ecumenical councils that settled the canon so that disagreement was disallowed. Thus as even the Catholic Encyclopedia states,

In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. The prevailing attitude of Western medieval authors is substantially that of the Greek Fathers. The chief cause of this phenomenon in the West is to be sought in the influence, direct and indirect, of St. Jerome's depreciating Prologus (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the Old Testament)

Further, if Catholics added the deuterocanonical books in 1546, then Martin Luther beat us to the punch: He included them in his first German translation, published the Council of Trent...
they had been included at least in an appendix of Protestant Bibles. It is historically demonstrable that Catholics did not add the books, Protestants took them out.


Which is more deception, for the issue is not whether the Deuteros can be read, but the canonical status of them. And as they are were not considered canonical, Luther translated them but placed them in a separate section, as did typical Protestant Bibles, as per an ancient tradition. Thus it is historically demonstrable that Catholics did not the books as Scripture, while Protestants followed the more ancient canon, out of which the NT shows Lord referenced writings as authoritative Scripture.

Luther had a tendency to grade the Bible according to his preferences. In his writings on the New Testament, he noted that the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were inferior to the rest, and they followed "the certain, main books of the New Testament."

Which was nothing novel or unCatholic, for in reality, scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries, and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon after the death of Luther.

Thus Luther was no maverick but had substantial RC support for his non-binding canon, and which did not determine the canon for Protestantism.

In 1519, this same attitude fueled his debate against Johannes Eck on the topic of purgatory. Luther undermined Eck’s proof text of 2 Maccabees 12 by devaluing the deuterocanonical books as a whole.

And since the canon had not been settled then Eck had a problem which would not be rectified until after the death of Luther. Likewise, Luther's position on the canon could not be made a damnable issue, as it is with later Catholicism, until after Trent.

Though there are no quotes, the New Testament does make numerous allusions to the deuterocanonical books. For one strong example, examine Hebrews 11:35: "Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release that they might rise again to a better life."

Even contemporary news can be referenced in Scripture, (Luke 13:1-3) which does not mean it is the latter, but, in contrast to the basis for Catholic oral tradition being the word of God, affirmation of such by inspired Scripture surely means it is true. And in contrast to canonical writings, the deuteros (Apocrypha) were never referred to as scripture as in "Search the scriptures" (John 5:39) and to Sadducees Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God (Matthew 22:29) or "It is written."(Mt. 4:4)

"Early Christians read the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint. It included the seven deuterocanonical books.

Which is a repetition of the deceptive statement which was dealt with earlier.

Since there was disagreement between some Church Fathers, it became obvious that no individual could provide an infallible list of inspired books.The bottom line: "We have no other assurance that the books of Moses, the four Gospels, and the other books are the true word of God," wrote Augustine, "but by the canon of the Catholic Church."

Which presumption would logically mean that first century souls had no other assurance that the books of Moses were the true word of God," yet the manifestly did! And rather than the historical magisterium infallibly indisputably defining what and who was of God, the church began with common souls assuredly ascertaining that both men (such as the prohets and John the baptizer: "for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed" (Mark 11:32) and writings were of God. (John 7:40-42)

So much for the presumption of Rome with her the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility.

• One must either trust a rabbinical school that rejected the New Testament 60 years after Christ established a Church, or one must trust the Church he established.

Which is simply a reiteration of ignorance dealt with before, as well as pure propagada, For the fact is that the church of Rome (nor the EOs, if less aberrant) cannot claim to be the one true and apostolic church, since distinctive Catholic are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.

Which deserves our trust? Martin Luther makes a pertinent observation in the sixteenth chapter of his Commentary on St. John "We are obliged to yield many things to the papists [Catholics]—that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."

Which helps the RC argument how? The Catholic logic is that if one is indebted to Catholicism for the Bible then it means acknowledging and submitting to Catholicism as being the infallible authority on what it consists of and means.

However, this logically means that first century souls should have submitted to those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23)

And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

Note also that whenever you see a Catholic quote Luther as this one , one should avail the research of James Swan a site search (site:beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com "We are obliged to yield many things" ..).

Thus once again the sophistry of (money-begging) Catholic Answers is once again exposed, but the grace of God.
 
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That’s the question, it could have been sources written by rivals or enemies of Pope Damascus l whose goal was to discredit him.
Its Damasus (no "c") and further research does find the charge that details of this scandalous conflict are attacked as being from ancient prejudiced sources, while Kelly is not alone in testimony against him.

These churches were a mark of the upbeat confidence of post-Constantinian Christianity in Rome. The popes were potentates, and began to behave like it. Damasus perfectly embodied this growing grandeur. An urbane career cleric like his predecessor Liberius, at home in the wealthy salons of the city, he was also a ruthless power-broker, and he did not he did not hesitate to mobilize both the city police and [a hired mob of gravediggers with pickaxes] to back up his rule…

Self-consciously, the popes began to model their actions and their style as Christian leaders on the procedures of the Roman state. — Eamon Duffy “Saints and Sinners”, p. 37,38
 
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Barney2.0

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Yes the written word , scripture, is how we know. The other codified things, we have no idea if they were set at Penticost and who set them.

Hers some examples that I have witnessed.
Traditions:
Incense used by the priest as he walks down the isle
Things spoken in Latin in the service
Kneeling and standing at certain times
When communion is given.

These are traditions. And although some of these things such as communion are spojen of in scripture the tradition of exactly how and when are not spoken of or detailed in scripture. Thus the tradition of how and when are not equal yo scripture. Which is fine. We say have communion according to your traditions, but don't say we are doing it wrong because we don't follow your tradition.
It is however testified by the early Church regardless if it’s absent from scripture.
 
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Its Damasus (no "c") and further research does find the charge that details of this scandalous conflict are attacked as being from ancient prejudiced sources, while Kelly is not alone in testimony against him.

These churches were a mark of the upbeat confidence of post-Constantinian Christianity in Rome. The popes were potentates, and began to behave like it. Damasus perfectly embodied this growing grandeur. An urbane career cleric like his predecessor Liberius, at home in the wealthy salons of the city, he was also a ruthless power-broker, and he did not he did not hesitate to mobilize both the city police and [a hired mob of gravediggers with pickaxes] to back up his rule…

Self-consciously, the popes began to model their actions and their style as Christian leaders on the procedures of the Roman state. — Eamon Duffy “Saints and Sinners”, p. 37,38
Sorry for the misspelling, Pope Damasus was operating in a time of rampant heresy which was effectively stamped out in his reign, so it wouldn’t surprise me to find that he was disliked by many. Once more I’d doubt the authenticity of the many claims against him.
 
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Just how does that prove your charge? That there a settled canon which Catholics uniformly held to, or had to? And that the deuterocanonical (or Deuteros for short, Apocrypha to us) books were rejected before they all taught contrary to distinctive Protestant teachings? No, that is not what your source proves. As for what it attempts, consistent with the sophistry arrogant "Catholic Answers" is known for, let us look at pertinent assertions of what it does argue, see here (just posted in response to you):

Refuting Catholic Answers How to Defend the Deuterocanonicals

God’s written word was entrusted to the Jews, but he never provided them with an inspired table of contents.

Neither has Rome, thus the distinction CA attempts to make here is negated.

• They divided their sacred writings into three parts: the law, the prophets, and the writings (which were canonized in that order).

Which tripartite canon is what we see being referred to in the Lord's instruction to His disciples in Luke 24:

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Luke 24:44)

Which is understood as being the Palestinian canon held to by those who sat in the seat of Moses, and which the ancient 1st century Jewish historian Josephus numbered as 22 books, and which is understood as correspondent to the 39 book Protestant canon, which divides books the Jews referred to as single works.

Answering the charges of an anti-Semite named Apion at the end of the first century A.D., Josephus says:

“We do not possess myriads of inconsistent books, conflicting with each other. other. Our books, those which are justly accredited, are but two and twenty, and contain the record of all time....” — Josephus, Against Apion, 1,8 (38-41)

"...the pseudepigraphical work 4 Ezra (probably written about A.D. 1208)...admits that only twenty-four Scriptures have circulated publicly since Ezra's time." — Robert C. Newman, "THE COUNCIL OF JAMNIA AND THE OLD TESTAMENT CANON," Westminster Theological Journal 38.4 (Spr. 1976) 319-348

Cyril of Jerusalem, whose list rejected the apocrypha (except for Baruch) exhorts his readers to “read the Divine Scriptures, the twenty-two books of the Old Testament, these that have been translated by the Seventy-two Interpreters,” the latter referring to the Septuagint but not as including the apocrypha. (Cyril of Jerusalem on the Canon of Scripture)

And which means that the 39 book Protestant canon is more ancient than that of Rome's, as it corresponds to a ancient canon held by Palestinian Jews from before the third century, and which is affirmed in Catholic scholarship:

“the protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon. (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217)

By the time of Christ, the law—and most likely the prophets—was set in number, but the writings were not yet closed.
Not yet universally closed, yes, but which was also the case for most of Rome's history, yet nor is the canon universally settled today in all that is called Christianity.

In Jesus’ time, the Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the law but rejected the prophets and writings. The Pharisees accepted all three. Other Jews used a Greek version (the Septuagint) that included the seven disputed books, known as the deuterocanonicals. Still other Jews used a version of the canon that is reflected in the Septaguint and included versions of the seven books in question in their original Hebrew or Aramaic.

Which is is simply ignorance and or erroneous or dubious (at best) statements deceptively presented as facts. For this claim presumes that the Septuagint contained all the apocryphal books at that time, but for which there is no historical evidence. The earliest existing Greek manuscripts which contain some of them date from the 4th Century and are understood to have been placed therein by Christians.

Philo of Alexandria (1st c A.D.) states that only the Torah (the first 5 books of the O.T.) was commissioned to be translated, leaving the rest of the O.T. following in later centuries, and in an order that is not altogether clear, nor do all LXX manuscripts have the same apocryphal books and names.

British scholar R. T. Beckwith states,

Philo of Alexandria's writings show it to have been the same as the Palestinian. He refers to the three familiar sections, and he ascribes inspiration to many books in all three, but never to any of the Apocrypha....The Apocrypha were known in the church from the start, but the further back one goes, the more rarely are they treated as inspired. (Roger T. Beckwith, "The Canon of the Old Testament" in Phillip Comfort, The Origin of the Bible [Wheaton: Tyndale House, 2003] pp. 57-64)

It is understood that manuscripts of anything like the capacity of Codex Alexandrinus were not used in the first centuries of the Christian era, and since in the second century AD the Jews seem largely to have discarded the Septuagint…there can be no real doubt that the comprehensive codices of the Septuagint, which start appearing in the fourth century AD, are all of Christian origin.

Nor is there agreement between the codices which the Apocrypha include...Moreover, all three codices [Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus], according to Kenyon, were produced in Egypt, yet the contemporary Christian lists of the biblical books drawn up in Egypt by Athanasius and (very likely) pseudo-Athanasius are much more critical, excluding all apocryphal books from the canon, and putting them in a separate appendix. (Roger Beckwith, [Anglican priest, Oxford BD and Lambeth DD], The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church [Eerdmans 1986], p. 382, 383; Triablogue: The legendary Alexandrian canon)

Edward Earle Ellis attests,
“No two Septuagint codices contain the same apocrypha, and no uniform Septuagint ‘Bible’ was ever the subject of discussion in the patristic church. In view of these facts the Septuagint codices appear to have been originally intended more as service books than as a defined and normative canon of Scripture,” (E. E. Ellis, The Old Testament in Early Christianity [Baker 1992], 34-35.

Furthermore, if quoting from some of the Septuagint means the whole is sanctioned, then since the Psalms of Solomon, which is not part of any scriptural canon, is found in copies of the Septuagint as is Psalm 151, and 3 and 4 Maccabees (Vaticanus [early 4th century] does not include any of the Maccabean books, while Sinaiticus [early 4th century] includes 1 and 4 Maccabees and Alexandrinus [early 5th century] includes 1, 2, 3, and 4 Maccabees and the Psalms of Solomon), then we would be bound to accept them as well.

Gleason Archer states,
Even in the case of the Septuagint, the apocryphal books maintain a rather uncertain existence. The Codex Vaticanus (B) lacks [besides 3 and 4] 1 and 2 Maccabees (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 1 Esdras (non-canonical, according to Rome). The Sinaiticus (Aleph) omits Baruch (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 4 Maccabees (non-canonical, according to Rome)... Thus it turns out that even the three earliest MSS or the LXX show considerable uncertainty as to which books constitute the list of the Apocrypha.. (Archer, Gleason L., Jr., "A Survey of Old Testament Introduction", Moody Press, Chicago, IL, Rev. 1974, p. 75; What are the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha?)

The German historian Martin Hengel writes,

“Sinaiticus contains Barnabas and Hermas, Alexandrinus 1 and 2 Clement.” “Codex Alexandrinus...includes the LXX as we know it in Rahlfs’ edition, with all four books of Maccabees and the fourteen Odes appended to Psalms.” “...the Odes (sometimes varied in number), attested from the fifth century in all Greek Psalm manuscripts, contain three New Testament ‘psalms’: the Magnificat, the Benedictus, the Nunc Dimittis from Luke’s birth narrative, and the conclusion of the hymn that begins with the ‘Gloria in Excelsis.’ This underlines the fact that the LXX, although, itself consisting of a collection of Jewish documents, wishes to be a Christian book.” (Martin Hengel, The Septuagint as Christian Scripture [Baker 2004], pp. 57-59)

Also,

The Targums did not include these books, nor the earliest versions of the Peshitta, and the apocryphal books are seen to have been later additions, and later versions of the LXX varied in regard to which books of the apocrypha they contained. “Nor is there agreement between the codices which of the Apocrypha include. (Eerdmans 1986), 382. The two most complete targums (translations of the Hebrew Bible into Aramaic which date from the first century to the Middel Ages) contain all the books of the Hebrew Bible except Ezra, Nehemiah and Daniel.

When the Christians claimed that they had written new scriptures, Jews from a rabbinical school in Javneh met around year 80 and, among other things, discussed the canon. They did not include the New Testament nor the seven Old Testament works and portions of Daniel and Esther. This still did not settle the Pharisee canon, since not all Jews agreed with or even knew about the decision at Javneh.

This also indicates ignorance. As WP documents, The theory that Jamnia finalised the canon, first proposed by Heinrich Graetz in 1871,[2] was popular for much of the 20th century. However, it was increasingly questioned from the 1960s onward, and the theory has been largely discredited.[3] (Council of Jamnia - Wikipedia) Sid Z. Leiman made an independent challenge for his University of Pennsylvania thesis published later as a book in 1976, in which he wrote that none of the sources used to support the theory actually mentioned books that had been withdrawn from a canon, and questioned the whole premise that the discussions were about canonicity at all, stating that they were actually dealing with other concerns entirely. Other scholars have since joined in and today the theory is largely discredited.[28]

Some scholars argue that the Jewish canon was fixed earlier by the Hasmonean dynasty.[5]
(Development of the Hebrew Bible canon - Wikipedia)

Next, Part 2
The Jewish canon was never fixed, Saint Cyril of Jerusalem never rejected the Deuterocanonical books either:

Did Some Church Fathers Reject the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture?

The difference between the Orthodox and Catholic Canon is what we believe should be read in the liturgy, Rome still considers certain books included the Orthodox Canon of scripture to be used in theological studies, our difference comes to what we believe should be read in the liturgy. The Council of Trent basically just had the Catholic Church officially confirm what should be in the Bible, it didn’t declare what was inspired and what wasn’t inspired. The differences in the Septuagint don’t necessarily invalidate the position on the Deuterocanonical books, the point was Jews saw fit to translate them, which means they placed great importance on the books. The earliest versions of the Peshitta do include the Deuterocanonical books, as for the Targum the reason for the rejection of the Deuterocanonical books would be the same reason Jews rejected the Septuagint because it was used by Christians. Josephus listed a canon of scripture that had nothing to do with the Septuagint likely because it became increasingly associated with Christians.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Neither Jesus nor any of the Bible writers quoted a supposed document called the LXX. As far as I know there is no proof of a B.C. date for the LXX (Greek Old Testament). If there was any copying/quoting, it was the other way round (see Origen's six column Old Testament, the Hexapla, and compare it to today's LXX).

But of course creators of corrupt modern Bible Versions have often given preference to Septuagint readings over the Masoretic Text.
how could diaspora Jews be studying their Scriptures, in Greek, in the early first century AD, unless the Scriptures had been translated into Greek earlier, beforehand...

BC ?
 
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In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals...The chief cause of this phenomenon in the West is to be sought in the influence, direct and indirect, of St. Jerome's depreciating Prologus (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the Old Testament)
THAT is plausible
Saint Jerome was influenced by the proto Masoretic text of the 4th century AD?


And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

Note also that whenever you see a Catholic quote Luther as this one , one should avail the research of James Swan a site search (site:beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com "We are obliged to yield many things" ..).

Thus once again the sophistry of (money-begging) Catholic Answers is once again exposed, but the grace of God.
you're comparing Luther to the MESSIAH??

Wasn't there was only ONE true Messiah?
 
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