The Gospel Straw man

JohnB445

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2018
1,374
921
Illinois
✟176,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
We know saved by grace through faith exists, and being saved as a sovereign gift of God. The standards of God is very high and Holy, no man will be able to keep all of the law until they get glorified bodies during the resurrection. We will all be in sin as long as we are in the flesh. One sin is enough to separate you from God, that is why God gave his begotten son to go die on the cross for our sins, that's the whole message.

Faith is intertwined with obedience. Like a saying, we are saved by faith alone, but that faith is will never be alone.

The Gospel message seems too good to be true to a lot of people, it is common for a man to believe they need to earn something. But what man believes or whatever his philosophy may be doesn't matter.

The common strawman goes something like this. Or the reductio ad absurdum fallacy (When you completely misinterpret what someone said and take it to the very extremes).

"Your preaching lawlessness, are you saying we can sin as much as we want without a care"
"Are you saying we don't have to get baptized or do anything else?"
"Wow, just believe and do nothing else"?

Well no, nobody was saying that. That whole straw man is easily taken care of with Romans 6. No dissection of terms needed.

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old selfawas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set freeb from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.


To add anything to the finish work on the cross, is to say Jesus didn't do enough. Which essentially rejects the gospel.
 

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
We know saved by grace through faith exists, and being saved as a sovereign gift of God. The standards of God is very high and Holy, no man will be able to keep all of the law until they get glorified bodies during the resurrection. We will all be in sin as long as we are in the flesh. One sin is enough to separate you from God, that is why God gave his begotten son to go die on the cross for our sins, that's the whole message.

Faith is intertwined with obedience. Like a saying, we are saved by faith alone, but that faith is will never be alone.

The Gospel message seems too good to be true to a lot of people, it is common for a man to believe they need to earn something. But what man believes or whatever his philosophy may be doesn't matter.

The common strawman goes something like this. Or the reductio ad absurdum fallacy (When you completely misinterpret what someone said and take it to the very extremes).

"Your preaching lawlessness, are you saying we can sin as much as we want without a care"
"Are you saying we don't have to get baptized or do anything else?"
"Wow, just believe and do nothing else"?

Well no, nobody was saying that. That whole straw man is easily taken care of with Romans 6. No dissection of terms needed.

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old selfawas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set freeb from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.


To add anything to the finish work on the cross, is to say Jesus didn't do enough. Which essentially rejects the gospel.

St. Paul says that Jesus lives and continually makes intercession for us.

Is this adding to the "finished work on the cross"--a phrase the Bible uses NOWHERE? (And if it's nowhere in the Bible, why do you use it?)

Another problem with this phrase is that it omits His Resurrection, Ascension, and Return, which are also salvific.
 
Upvote 0

Doug Melven

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,080
2,576
60
Wyoming
✟83,208.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
St. Paul says that Jesus lives and continually makes intercession for us.

Is this adding to the "finished work on the cross"--a phrase the Bible uses NOWHERE? (And if it's nowhere in the Bible, why do you use it?)

Another problem with this phrase is that it omits His Resurrection, Ascension, and Return, which are also salvific.
When people say "finished work on the cross" they are referring to what Jesus said in John 19:30. "It is finished".
When people say others are adding to it they mean things like works, you have to do works to be saved.
But Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:2 "I determined not to know anything among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified"
The finished work on the cross is the Gospel as told in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

And what is this statement about not using "finished work on the cross" because it is not found in the Bible?
Many terms are used that are not in Scripture.
Trinity, Transubstantiation , sacraments
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
We know saved by grace through faith exists, and being saved as a sovereign gift of God. The standards of God is very high and Holy, no man will be able to keep all of the law until they get glorified bodies during the resurrection. We will all be in sin as long as we are in the flesh. One sin is enough to separate you from God, that is why God gave his begotten son to go die on the cross for our sins, that's the whole message.

Faith is intertwined with obedience. Like a saying, we are saved by faith alone, but that faith is will never be alone.

The Gospel message seems too good to be true to a lot of people, it is common for a man to believe they need to earn something. But what man believes or whatever his philosophy may be doesn't matter.

The common strawman goes something like this. Or the reductio ad absurdum fallacy (When you completely misinterpret what someone said and take it to the very extremes).

"Your preaching lawlessness, are you saying we can sin as much as we want without a care"
"Are you saying we don't have to get baptized or do anything else?"
"Wow, just believe and do nothing else"?

Well no, nobody was saying that. That whole straw man is easily taken care of with Romans 6. No dissection of terms needed.

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old selfawas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set freeb from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.


To add anything to the finish work on the cross, is to say Jesus didn't do enough. Which essentially rejects the gospel.
I certainly agree that there are two extremes, one is legalism and the second is licentiousness (grace is a license to sin), both are condemned in Scripture categorically and in no uncertain terms. We do well to realize that at conversion we a simply hopeless sinners, we bring nothing to the table, God's grace saves us by the blood of Christ. But your quote points out that discipleship comes at a cost, and failure to learn the discipline of grace comes at a great cost.

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field. (Matthew 13:44)

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it. (Matthew 13:45-46)
What should be obvious in both of these parables is that it cost both of them everything. The gospel is simple, you hear the message, believe, and receive the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14). That's called justification by grace through faith alone. But wait, justification is never alone, sanctification (being made holy) must follow. What kind of a salvation would leave you in the clutches of sin, covetousness, fornication, self loathing and unbearable guilt? Sanctification, bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit, joy, peace, long suffering, meekness, patience and the like are not required for salvation, that is salvation, it's what you are saved for. We think of sin as an offense against God, basically because that is exactly what it is, but it's not just offenses, it's not something we do it's something we lack, which comes down to a specific word in the New Testament, righteousness.

Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10)​

A good working definition for grace is 'unmerited favor', Paul worked in the ministry field by grace alone and he is crystal clear on this point. The merits of Christian ministry are Christ's alone we can add nothing. We don't emphasis grace because we want believers to do nothing with God's gift of grace at conversion, but because it's grace that propels us to good works. I honestly believe every believer seeks to honor and glorify God by the grace he or she receives.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
3,702
2,813
Midwest
✟305,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. I have witnessed people perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
God is exemplified by the moral tenets that He sets forth in scripture. He shows forth His nature and character by what he says in His law is the requirement for us.

When He is living within us, we will exemplify His nature and character; yet not us, but Him who dwells within us.
 
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
We know saved by grace through faith exists, and being saved as a sovereign gift of God. The standards of God is very high and Holy, no man will be able to keep all of the law until they get glorified bodies during the resurrection. We will all be in sin as long as we are in the flesh.....

I think that is wrong idea, because of these:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46


He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.

1 John 3:7-10
 
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
I think that is wrong idea, because of these:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46


He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.

1 John 3:7-10
Also, sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Also, sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4.

That is also good scripture that should not be ignored. But it would be good to know also what is the law. I have understood the Law is this:

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10
 
Upvote 0