Is the Rapture Deception?

ewq1938 said:

I explained what I disagree with. I know you believe there is a distinction but there isn't. Paul knew about the endtimes and the trumps and in that letter he speaks of the last trump. Rev didn't need to exist. Paul had the knowledge and spoke to these people in person and only reminds them about a small part of what he taught them. I feel it's important to show the errors or pre-trib whenever it is being promoted so people can at least have a fair chance at deciding which is true or not true on the Rapture.

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There are no errors regarding the pre-trib removal of The Church.
It is layed out easily for us believers to see.
I don't have time to get into the nuances of the trumps , but will tomorrow if time permits.
I actually went over it recently in other threads .
There is a distinction .
Just like the Rapture and The Second Coming of Christ.

ewq1938 said:

Other than it doesn't exist in scripture. The Rapture is placed after the end of the trib, after the second coming and after the resurrection of all the dead in Christ. Not a single time is it placed before the trib begins. That doctrine was countered by Paul himself in 2 thess. but the doctrine remained in spite of Paul's efforts and here we are much later and it is still here but I believe God allows it to exist.

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Once again my friend we shall agree to disagree, due to the Scriptures indicating that the Church will be removed before the execution of The Day of The Lord.
The Groom (Christ) will remove the Bride (The Church) before divine judgment comes upon a rebellious , rejecting word full of depravity.
Anyway, I love you as my brother in Christ regardless of our differences.
⚘

HTacianas said:

The "rapture" is an idea that has only been around for around 150 years. It has never been a teaching of Christianity.

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Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is the writer of Against Heresies. On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, and then quotes Matthew 24:21. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

Saint Ephraim the Syrian (306 AD – 373 AD) is possibly the writer of Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraim. The opinions of scholars are divided on the origins of this apocalypse, but as for the historical implications of showing that the teaching of the Rapture event pre-dates 150 years ago, the latest date of the manuscript is the early 7th century. In this writing:

"See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Ephraim (or Pseudo-Ephraim, if written by another author after Saint Ephraim) writes that the end times are upon this world and could start at any moment. This text very clearly states the saints and elect of God, all born again believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, will be “taken to the Lord” before the Great Tribulation. Ephraim also identifies the Old Testament “Day of The Lord” and the end times Great tribulation as the same event.

There is no doubt that early Christian writings existed prior to 150 years ago professing a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture.

FireDragon76 said:

Except Jesus actually didn't. Jesus is speaking of the removal of the wicked in Matthew 24, not the "rapture" as many American evangelicals understand it.

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That is commonly used as a Rapture text, but really was not addressing that issue!

FireDragon76 said:

Jordan Cooper is a respected Lutheran theologian and scholar of church history.

It's difficult for me to know how to answer you because I reject that entire eschatological paradigm. Chiliasm in particular is heretical and has been rejected by the Church, so I see apocalyptic literature mostly as symbolism.

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Actually, a majority of the early Church father did hold to a form of it in the first 3 Centuries of the Church, and it was not until Augustine was it supplanted!
The Church always has seen premil viewpoint as within bounds of orthodoxy, just would not see the Dispy view of the Rapture as biblical

Northwest Savant said:

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is the writer of Against Heresies. On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, and then quotes Matthew 24:21. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

Saint Ephraim the Syrian (306 AD – 373 AD) is possibly the writer of Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraim. The opinions of scholars are divided on the origins of this apocalypse, but as for the historical implications of showing that the teaching of the Rapture event pre-dates 150 years ago, the latest date of the manuscript is the early 7th century. In this writing:

"See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Ephraim (or Pseudo-Ephraim, if written by another author after Saint Ephraim) writes that the end times are upon this world and could start at any moment. This text very clearly states the saints and elect of God, all born again believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, will be “taken to the Lord” before the Great Tribulation. Ephraim also identifies the Old Testament “Day of The Lord” and the end times Great tribulation as the same event.

There is no doubt that early Christian writings existed prior to 150 years ago professing a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture.

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A majority of the early church fathers held to a form of premil, and a smaller group the rapture!

BibleloverBill said:

No where does it say in the Bible that all Christians are part of that church.
Revelation 2:
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere,
I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon all the World,
to test them who dwell upon the Earth.

That does not say or indicate a rapture. God now protects believers from many testings and trials throughout the World. But He knows how much we can each handle (1 Corinthians 10:13), so He even allows death to come to true Christians.

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I am a historical premil, so do not see a pretrib rapture, but do see that passage as a main one used to support it!

YeshuaFan said:

Actually, a majority of the early Church father did hold to a form of it in the first 3 Centuries of the Church, and it was not until Augustine was it supplanted!
The Church always has seen premil viewpoint as within bounds of orthodoxy, just would not see the Dispy view of the Rapture as biblical

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The Lutheran confessions, in keeping with most ancient churches, condemn chiliasm:

"Likewise, we also reject here certain Jewish teachings that are also surfacing at the present time, which claim that before the resurrection of the dead, the saints and pious will have a worldly kingdom and will annihilate all the godless." Augsburg Confession, Article 17

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Luther was clear that Christ's kingdom is eternal and spiritual and he reigns in the human heart. Chiliasm denies this truth of our religion.

FireDragon76 said:

The Lutheran confessions condemn chiliasm:



Luther was clear that Christ's kingdom is eternal and spiritual and he reigns in the human heart. Chiliasm denies this truth of our religion.

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Perhaps in the Lutheran viewpoint, but it does not rise up to non orthodox in either reformed or Baptist!

YeshuaFan said:

Perhaps in the Lutheran viewpoint, but it does not rise up to non orthodox in either reformed or Baptist!

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Historic Reformed churches did not believe in chiliasm, either. Calvin in particular wrote against such an interpretation, and was in agreement with Luther and all the other historic Christian churches:

For hereby [Jesus] meant to drive out of his disciples' minds that fond and false imagination which they had conceived of the terrestrial kingdom, because he showeth unto them briefly, that his kingdom consisteth in the preaching of the gospel. There was no cause, therefore, why they should dream of riches, of external principality, or any other earthly thing, whilst they heard that Christ did then reign when as he subdueth unto himself (all the whole) world by the preaching of the gospel. Whereupon it followeth that he doth reign spiritually, and not after any worldly manner.

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The Second Helvetic Confession of 1566 also echoes the Augsburg Confession in rejecting chiliasm:

We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matthew 24 and 25, and Luke 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thessalonians 2, and II Timothy 3 and 4, present something quite different. (Chapter 11)

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Devin P said in post #1:

Is the Rapture Deception?

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The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib Christians begin to suffer in the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken His (supposed) promise, that He has pulled the rug out from under them, that He lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the Tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think: "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan has not defeated God, and God did not lie to us"; nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be unprepared to face the long Tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some Christians unprepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the Church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future Tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus Christ's Second Coming, immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

HTacianas said in post #2:

The "rapture" is an idea that has only been around for around 150 years. It has never been a teaching of Christianity.

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Note that the idea of what is commonly called the rapture is in the Bible. For the rapture is the gathering together of the Church to Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3.

Also, just as it is okay to use the English word "Bible" even though it is not in the Bible, so it should be okay to use the English word "rapture" even though it is not in the Bible. The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old, Latin, Vulgate translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo: G0726) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is simply the Church's being "caught up" together to Jesus Christ at His future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the Church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at His Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. For such an idea could be employed by the future Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' Second Coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26), without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the Church into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Him at His Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

At that meeting, Jesus Christ will judge everyone in the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the Church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the Church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as He defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the physically-resurrected and married obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Southernscotty said in post #3:

Then why is the church not mentioned after chapter four of revelation until the end of Revelation? It is because the church left . . .

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No significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason that the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to seven, literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11), which is today western Turkey.

The Church in the general sense will definitely be in the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For Christians will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the Church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the Church without using the specific word "church".

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus Christ will not come and gather together (rapture) the Church until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the Church does not happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' Second Coming and the physical resurrection of the Church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same Second Coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the Church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same Second Coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the Church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus Christ will not return and gather together (rapture) the Church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the Church, and the future Antichrist sits (at least one time) in a third Jewish temple building in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the Church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the Church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the Church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the Church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

YeshuaFan said:

That is commonly used as a Rapture text, but really was not addressing that issue!

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That doesn't matter. It was obvious what Irenaeus was writing about. The scripture citing only reassured the reader that he referred to the rapture. Do a search for Irenaeus' "Against Heresies" and read the entire chapter leading to 5.29 and you will see for yourself. I did not think it necessary to copy-paste the entire chapter in this forum.

YeshuaFan said:

A majority of the early church fathers held to a form of premil, and a smaller group the rapture!

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Thanks for supporting my reply that even a smaller group held that the "rapture" is an idea that has only been around for more than 150 years and that it has been a teaching of Christianity prior to that time as well.

Northwest Savant said:

Thanks for supporting my reply that even a smaller group held that the "rapture" is an idea that has only been around for more than 150 years and that it has been a teaching of Christianity prior to that time as well.

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Premil to a large degree, and Rapture to a smaller degree, was commonly held until times of origin and Augustine, when their spiritualize prophecy came into vogue, as Augustine wanted to have catholic Church be same as kingdom of God on earth!

Southernscotty said in post #3:

. . . why is the church not mentioned after chapter four of revelation until the end of Revelation? It is because the church left, The Bridegroom came for His bride and we are "caught up" To meet Him in the air.

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Note that the ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ will not occur until His Second Coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), just as Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage will not occur until after the future Tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of Christians, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the Church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the Church to Jesus at His Second Coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) will not have started by the time of Revelation 19, which will not begin until after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the Church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the Church (of all times) at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the Church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus Himself at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the ten virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says: "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the Church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus Christ's Second Coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Southernscotty said in post #7:

. . . He is not coming back at that time, WE believers will meet Him in the air. He will not come back to earth until later and the saints with Him.

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Note that Jesus Christ's coming for the Church, and with the Church, will occur at the same Second Coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' Second Coming, the souls of all obedient dead Christians of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all Christians who will survive the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth, those who will still be "alive and remain", will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a). And then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before He descends to set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12), which is in Jerusalem.

It is because of this Second-Coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus Christ will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the Church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the Church will already be with Jesus when He subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

I believe we will all go through the tribulation period, but God's chosen people will be protected. That's why God warns his people to flee into the mountains away from the cities when we see the signs. We will be protected during the tribulation and the reign of the anti-christ. But nobody will be swooped away in the sky. Until someone has solid scripture to prove pre-tribulation rapture I will remain believing this.