Pre tribulation is awful grammar

BABerean2 said:

There will be a real future Second Coming of Christ, where the dead will be raised and judged, based on the scripture found below.


Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Luk_10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.



Luk_11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.


The timing of the event described in 2 Timothy 4:1 is found below.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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And this post further proves the point I have been trying to make. Luke 17:20 has zero to do with a passage such as 2 Timothy 4:1. Two entirely different contexts. The former comes without observation, the latter comes with observation, because if the latter doesn't, one then is denying that the 2nd coming of Christ will be an observable event, where Christ will be seen coming in His kingdom.

JacksBratt said:

I am not ignoring anyone. I am not focusing on you. It is just you that I am conversing with.

My own problem? What would that be? Being a person who holds the Pre Trib view? Seriously? You are that arrogant? That you would hold your view as the one and only truth and you own it?

I hold the Pre Trib view, but I'm not about to say that others cannot have a different view or that I may be erroneous in my view.

Many times, on this forum, I have said "we must chose to agree to disagree. Look me up when we get to glory and we can laugh about all the things we got wrong"

As for me being afraid to die. Where on earth did you get that. It is very tiresome when people read something that is posted and assume some wild and wacky point that is 1/ not made 2/ used as condescension and 3/ portrayed as some view that is anti christian or shows the one posting to be ignorant or weak in their faith.

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What would be the reasons Pretribbers desire to get raptured before the time of the mark of the beast if it has nothing to do with fearing being persecuted by the beast and possibly killed? Isn't this exactly what a Pretrib rapture would avoid altogether?

DavidPT said:

And this post further proves the point I have been trying to make. Luke 17:20 has zero to do with a passage such as 2 Timothy 4:1. Two entirely different contexts. The former comes without observation, the latter comes with observation, because if the latter doesn't, one then is denying that the 2nd coming of Christ will be an observable event, where Christ will be seen coming in His kingdom.

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I have never claimed the Second Coming of Christ is not a real, observable event.

If someone else has made that claim, take it up with them.

If scripture is taken as a whole, nobody can deny that the kingdom has a present and a future context.

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Did Christ cast out devils during the first century?

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DavidPT said:

We're not on the same page here. A lot of these things in your post I'm not even arguing against. My argument is with seeing Christ coming in His kingdom, and that when Christ returns, all will see Him doing that,

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Here is the point, "every eye" will see him when comes, even those who pierced him.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the tribes of the land will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

But no one can see his kingdom if they haven't been born again.
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again

Luke 17:20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,

So how do you reconcile that EVERY EYE will see HIM when he comes, but ONLY those born again CAN SEE the kingdom of God?

DavidPT said:

But that doesn't imply the lost will be included in His kingdom once He returns, thus I'm not suggesting that nor arguing for that. Even if there are a thousand years after the 2nd coming, and that there are unsaved mortals remaining, that doesn't make them being in His kingdom then, meaning where they are a part of it forever. They obviously don't inherit it if they are living outside of it rather than inside of it.

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So if there are unsaved mortals living during Christ's 1000 year physical earthly reign, how could they have seen Christ come, but not literally see his kingdom? Will its buildings and palace in Israel be literally invisible to those not born again? Will they scoff at those that can literally see with their eyes a physical brick and mortar kingdom in Jerusalem?

DavidPT said:

IMO the NJ will be like the garden of Eden. The garden of Eden was a place on earth, maybe like heaven on earth, yet the garden of Eden wasn't the entire planet though.

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Will it be invisible to those not born again?

DavidPT said:

My point is, the kingdom that comes without observation is not the same thing as seeing Christ coming in His kingdom when He is returning, the 2nd coming.

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I'm trying to understand this statement, so please correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying the coming of the kingdom of God is not the same as Christ coming in his kingdom?

BABerean2 said:

I have never claimed the Second Coming of Christ is not a real, observable event.

If someone else has made that claim, take it up with them.

If scripture is taken as a whole, nobody can deny that the kingdom has a present and a future context.

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Did Christ cast out devils during the first century?

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I'm not saying you did nor am I claiming anyone in this thread has made that claim. The page I'm on, apparently no one else is on, thus might explain some of the confusion. Perhaps my fault. Maybe I'm not being as clear about things as I have been thinking I have. It's easy for each of us to understand what we ourselves are meaning. What's not so easy sometimes, is having others also easily understanding what we ourselves are meaning.

Meaning this in general then, if we are unable to understand one another at times, why shouldn't we assume the same can be true of our understanding of Scriptures at times, that sometimes, all of us, and not just some of us, misunderstand Scriptures at times?

Billy Evmur said:

John Nelson Darby was a villain, no doubt about it. He is the father of Pretribulation doctrine.

An Oxford educated theologian he knew very well that the word apostasies in 2.Thessalonians.2. meant falling away as in rebellion but he reinterpreted it to mean departure or removal as in from one place to another. He knew it was wrong therefore he deliberately set out to deceive in order to produce his pretribulation doctrine.

But it is awful grammar.

He says concerning the rapture [in essence] That day will not come unless there been a rapture.

The rapture doesn't come unless there has been a rapture

doesn't make one iota of sense.

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Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Shame on you and your kind. Repeatedly, you and yours merely parrot and re-parrot an ever obvious poorly researched, ever just as obviously purposely distorted version of Darby's FINDINGS/assertions.

What Darby actually asserted regarding the error the Apostle Paul was addressing in 2 Thessalonians 2, was that...

QUOTE
In answering this error, and in guarding them from the wily efforts of seducers, he puts everything in its place here by appealing to precious truths of which he had already spoken. Their gathering together unto Christ in the air was a demonstration of the impossibility of the day of the Lord being already come.

Moreover with regard to this last he presents two considerations: first, the day could not be already come, since Christians were not yet gathered to the Lord, and they were to come with Him; second, the wicked one who has then to be judged had not yet appeared, so that the judgment could not be executed.

The apostle had already instructed the Thessalonians with regard to this wicked one, when at Thessalonica; and in the former epistle he had taught them concerning the rapture of the church. In order that the Lord should come in judgment, iniquity must have reached its height, and open opposition to God have been manifested. But the truth had another and more precious side: the saints were to be in the same position as Christ, to be gathered together unto Him, before He could manifest Himself in glory to those outside. But these truths require a more connected examination.

Their gathering together unto Christ before the manifestation was a truth known to the Thessalonians; it is not revealed here, it is used as an argument. The Lord Jesus was coming, but it was impossible that He should be without His church in the glory. The King would indeed punish His rebellious subjects; but, before doing so, He would bring to Himself those who had been faithful to Him amid the unfaithful, in order to bring them back with Him and publicly to honour them in the midst of the rebels. But the apostle here speaks only of the rapture itself, and he adjures them only by that truth not to allow themselves to be shaken in mind as though the day were come. What an assured truth must this have been to Christians, since the apostle could appeal to it as to a known point, on which the heart could rest! The relationship of the church to Christ, its being necessarily in the same position with Him rendered the idea that the day was already come a mere folly.

In the second place, the already known fact is asserted, that the apostacy must previously take place, and then the man of sin be revealed. Solemn truth! Everything takes its place. The forms and the name of Christianity have long been maintained; true Christians have been disowned; but now there should be a public renunciation of the faith-an apostacy. True Christians should have their true place in heaven. But, besides this, there should be a person who would fully realise in sin the character of man without God. He is the man of sin. He does his own will-it is but Adam fully developed; and incited by the enemy, he opposes himself to God (it is open enmity against God), and he exalts himself above all that bears the name of God; he assumes the place of God in His temple. So that there is apostacy, that is, the open renunciation of Christianity in general, and an individual who concentrates in his own person (as to the principles of iniquity) the opposition that is made against God.

2 Thessalonians 2 Bible Commentary - John Darby’s Synopsis

END QUOTE

In other words, that THAT day - of the LordiN HIS WRATH, that the Thessalonians had been duped into believing they were already living in - would not come until AFTER (1) The Lord catches them up to be with Him forever (2) followed by those false Believers REMAINING on the Earth follow the coming Antichrist, in THEIR Apostacy (3) AFTER which The Lord THEN returns in His Wrath.

Whether your kind believe that or not is on you.

But NONE OF you have ANY business distorting ANYONE's words.

Let alone, asserting, based on such distortions, that the person your kind so wilfully malign, was the one up to no good.

Thank God for, Rom. 5:6-8 - in each, our stead.

Douggg said:

Well, the falling away is not referring to being the rapture, but a departure from believing that Jesus is the messiah and Christianity.

The biggest problem I see with the Pre-trib rapture label is that what is really meant is Pre-70th week. I don't take issue with that the rapture could happen before the 70th week begins, but I don't agree that it has to.

Based on 1Thessalonians5, combined with 2Thessalonians2:4, the rapture has to take place before the Day of the Lord years begin - which will be triggered by the Antichrist, King of Israel (illegitimate) at the time, suddenly and unexpectedly going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

What we don't know, and cannot know, is how far before that event, the rapture takes place.

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Hey Dougg, good to see you still around (here and there, I read various of your posts over on TF, but I don't post there).

But yeah, PreTrib is more aptly named Pre-Prophecy - for it takes place within and at the end of this Mystery Age's present TEMPORARY interruption of Israel's Prophetic or Prophesied Timeline, Rom. 11:25.

Again, good to see you around.

Rom. 5:6-8.

Danoh said:

Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Shame on you and your kind. Repeatedly, you and yours merely parrot and re-parrot an ever obvious poorly researched, ever just as obviously purposely distorted version Darby's FINDINGS/ assertions.

What Darby actually asserted regarding the error the Apostle Paul was addressing in 2 Thessalonians 2, was that...

QUOTE
In answering this error, and in guarding them from the wily efforts of seducers, he puts everything in its place here by appealing to precious truths of which he had already spoken. Their gathering together unto Christ in the air was a demonstration of the impossibility of the day of the Lord being already come.

Moreover with regard to this last he presents two considerations: first, the day could not be already come, since Christians were not yet gathered to the Lord, and they were to come with Him; second, the wicked one who has then to be judged had not yet appeared, so that the judgment could not be executed.

The apostle had already instructed the Thessalonians with regard to this wicked one, when at Thessalonica; and in the former epistle he had taught them concerning the rapture of the church. In order that the Lord should come in judgment, iniquity must have reached its height, and open opposition to God have been manifested. But the truth had another and more precious side: the saints were to be in the same position as Christ, to be gathered together unto Him, before He could manifest Himself in glory to those outside. But these truths require a more connected examination.

Their gathering together unto Christ before the manifestation was a truth known to the Thessalonians; it is not revealed here, it is used as an argument. The Lord Jesus was coming, but it was impossible that He should be without His church in the glory. The King would indeed punish His rebellious subjects; but, before doing so, He would bring to Himself those who had been faithful to Him amid the unfaithful, in order to bring them back with Him and publicly to honour them in the midst of the rebels. But the apostle here speaks only of the rapture itself, and he adjures them only by that truth not to allow themselves to be shaken in mind as though the day were come. What an assured truth must this have been to Christians, since the apostle could appeal to it as to a known point, on which the heart could rest! The relationship of the church to Christ, its being necessarily in the same position with Him rendered the idea that the day was already come a mere folly.

In the second place, the already known fact is asserted, that the apostacy must previously take place, and then the man of sin be revealed. Solemn truth! Everything takes its place. The forms and the name of Christianity have long been maintained; true Christians have been disowned; but now there should be a public renunciation of the faith-an apostacy. True Christians should have their true place in heaven. But, besides this, there should be a person who would fully realise in sin the character of man without God. He is the man of sin. He does his own will-it is but Adam fully developed; and incited by the enemy, he opposes himself to God (it is open enmity against God), and he exalts himself above all that bears the name of God; he assumes the place of God in His temple. So that there is apostacy, that is, the open renunciation of Christianity in general, and an individual who concentrates in his own person (as to the principles of iniquity) the opposition that is made against God.

2 Thessalonians 2 Bible Commentary - John Darby’s Synopsis

END QUOTE

In other words, that THAT day - of the LordiN HIS WRATH, that the Thessalonians had been duped into believing they were already living in - would not come until AFTER (1) The Lord catches them up to be with Him forever (2) followed by those false Believers REMAINING on the Earth follow the coming Antichrist, in THEIR Apostacy (3) AFTER which The Lord THEN returns in His Wrath.

Whether your kind believe that or not is on you.

But NONE OF you have ANY business distorting ANYONE's words.

Let alone, asserting, based on such distortions, that the person your kind so wilfully malign, was the one up to no good.

Thank God for, Rom. 5:6-8 - in each, our stead.

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PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson:

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Billy Evmur said:

The difference dear brother in reference to the Lord coming in the clouds is that the scripture specifically says "every eye shall see Him"

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Did you not read the post of mine you quoted?

Did every eye of everyone in every nation See Gods actual arm as "scripture specifically says" here:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

Did EVERY EYE of Every person of every nation SEE God execute Judgment upon Israel at the time of the Babylonian Exile as "scripture specifically says" here:

Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. (Ez 5:7-9)

Did ALL FLESH SEE God Kindle the fire In Israel that devoured every green tree there at that same time as "scripture specifically says" here?

Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...
(Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Again, where does scripture teach you to apply a polar opposite interpretation to the OT Phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by all flesh", "before the eyes of all nations" from the NT phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see?

Billy Evmur said: ↑
John Nelson Darby was a villain, no doubt about it. He is the father of Pretribulation doctrine..........

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Danoh said:

Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Shame on you and your kind. Repeatedly, you and yours merely parrot and re-parrot an ever obvious poorly researched, ever just as obviously purposely distorted version Darby's FINDINGS/ assertions.......

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Gotta watch out for them lying spirits.......

1 Ki 22:
22 “The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?' So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.'
And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.'

23 “Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours,
and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”


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Billy Evmur said:

Isaiah 52.10. you should understand that this is prophecy and you misquote it "The Lord hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations and all the ends of the earth shall see His salvation." it is speaking about the cross, the gospel and salvation.

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Ok...Did you see Jesus hanging on the cross with your physical eyes? or do you assert that "seen by the eyes of all nations" means something besides literal, optical vision here?

And what of the other passages I quoted?

BABerean2 said:

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson:

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Already addressed as what all that is - the same parroting and reparroting of poor research and willful misrepresentation of Darby's approach, and of his resulting findings.

In short, thank you for those examples of my very point.

Rom. 5:6-8.

claninja said:

Here is the point, "every eye" will see him when comes, even those who pierced him.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him

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Yeah.
Note the high priest tearing/renting his garments in Matt 26 and Mark14, which was unlawful in the OT.....

Leviticus 10:6-7
And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled…

Question about the High Priest seeing Jesus coming on clouds of heaven

Matthew 26:
63 But Jesus remained silent.
Then the high priest said to Him, “I charge You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 “Thou say,” Jesus answered.
“But I say to all of ye, from now on ye be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of the heaven.”g
65 At this, the high priest tore his garments and said, “He has blasphemed!
Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
66 What do you think?”
“He deserves to die,” they answered.
Mark 14:
61 But Jesus remained silent and made no reply.
Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62“I AM,” said Jesus,
“and ye will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of the heaven.”
63 At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “Why do we need any more witnesses? 64
you have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?”

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.

Revelation 16:11
And they blaspheme the God of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them, and not they reform out of the works of them


Seems as if Paul didn't fare much better against the High Priests......

Acts 23:
2 and the chief priest Ananias commanded those standing by him to smite him on the mouth,
3 then Paul said unto him, 'God is about to smite thee, thou whitewashed wall, and thou -- thou dost sit judging me according to the law, and, violating law, dost order me to be smitten!'

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye Murder<5407> the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21
And not they reform/repent out of their Murders/<5408>, nor out from their sorceries,...........


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Billy Evmur said:

Darby simply was not honest, sorry but there it is...he got his view from Edward Irving....and Irving got them from very dubious sources.

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No. Your kind are not sorry. You live to parrot your endless books "about" a thing, as if you yourselves did the research.

Result, your kind consistently evidence an inability to see where Darby, et al, were coming from.

In contrast, I've personally read Irving and McDonald - both held a Post-Trib view.

As did Psuedo-Ephraim back around 300 to 600 AD.

And from what I have read of Darby, his view was the result of he himself having understood first, the Believer's Completeness in Christ.

I've dealt with your kind before. Repeatedly, over many years now.

And repeatedly, your kind prove yourselves not only unable to see the pattern of progression in the man's research in Scripture itself that eventually resulted in his view, but you continually prove yourselves ever very reliant on the misinformed, poorly researched, intentionally distorted, endless books your kind get your supposed "understanding" from.

What in the world do you own Bibles for?

You all parrot the exact same "books based" distortions.

Best your kind put away your massive personal libraries and get in, and stay in, The Book.

Isaiah 8:20
Nehemiah 8:10
Acts 17:11,12
2 Timothy 3:6-17

Danoh said:

No. Your kind are not sorry. You live to parrot your endless books "about" a thing, as if you yourselves did the research.
Best your kind put away your massive personal libraries and get in, and stay in, The Book.

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Excellentomundo!

As the wise man once wisely said:

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1
*SNIP*

........ Now, what is meant by this term – THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB?
The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).

The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life. Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order.
However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death.


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