Which camp do you agree with?

JohnB445 · Oct 23, 2018

I would go with justified by faith, but sanctification must follow and Jesus must be the Lord of your life and not pushed to the side. Similar to the Orthodox view, of theosis.

Why do we believe and refuse to work with God's grace to transform us? Has his grace even came upon those who refuse to change?

Albion · Oct 23, 2018

Choice #5:

'Jesus death on the cross was sufficient, and we may be saved by Faith in him and his atoning sacrifice.'

Dave L · Oct 23, 2018

None of the above. Jesus fully paid only for the sins of all who believe in him. And they will overcome all sin because it is the nature of the new birth to do so.

Dave-W · Oct 23, 2018

Also none of the above. The closest is # 1 but you did not finish the reason that "sanctification MUST follow."

Must follow for what exactly?
Salvation? no.

JohnB445 · Oct 23, 2018

Dave-W said:
Also none of the above. The closest is # 1 but you did not finish the reason that "sanctification MUST follow."

Must follow for what exactly?
Salvation? no.

Because we must accept him as our Lord too?

Dave-W · Oct 23, 2018

JohnB445 said:
Because we must accept him as our Lord too?

Do you say "must" as in order to get saved or to stay saved?

JohnB445 · Oct 23, 2018

I'm not 100% sure.

But to be on the safe side I would believe that Jesus died for sins, then obey Jesus out of love.

carp614 · Oct 23, 2018

I just voted to see the results.

I am genuinely interested in the stay saved arguments. Does the bible lay out how a saved person can lose there salvation?

bling · Oct 23, 2018

None of those:

God forgives our sins 100% if we just humbly accept it as pure charity, so there is nothing to be "paid" to God. There is a huge ransom payment offered to the criminal undeserving kidnapper, who is not satan. You know how we try to get the nonbeliever to accept through faith Jesus Christ and Him crucified, so a child can enter the kingdom to be with God, yet that nonbeliever often rejects, for lack of faith, Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, so a child never is set free to go to the Kingdom. That nonbeliever fits a good description of a kidnapper and Jesus Christ and Him Crucified is describe by Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer as the ransom payment.

bcbsr · Oct 23, 2018

JohnB445 said:
I would go with justified by faith, but sanctification must follow and Jesus must be the Lord of your life and not pushed to the side. Similar to the Orthodox view, of theosis.

Why do we believe and refuse to work with God's grace to transform us? Has his grace even came upon those who refuse to change?

You missed one.
Jesus' death was sufficient and faith in him the sole requirement to be saved, and having been saved we are eternally secure and have lost the ability to live lawlessly (1John 3:9)

JohnB445 · Oct 23, 2018

bcbsr said:
You missed one.
Jesus' death was sufficient and faith in him the sole requirement to be saved, and having been saved we are eternally secure and have lost the ability to live lawlessly (1John 3:9)

I agree with you, I may have mistakenly looked at this concept by my own set of experiences since I cannot cope living in unrepentant sin anymore whenever I willfully sin the conviction is too strong for me not to want to do it again.

Butch5 · Oct 31, 2018

JohnB445 said:
I would go with justified by faith, but sanctification must follow and Jesus must be the Lord of your life and not pushed to the side. Similar to the Orthodox view, of theosis.

Why do we believe and refuse to work with God's grace to transform us? Has his grace even came upon those who refuse to change?

Paul said the 'wages of sin is death'. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die' If death is the penalty for sin and Jesus paid it why do Christians die?

A New Dawn · Oct 31, 2018

Dave-W said:
Also none of the above. The closest is # 1 but you did not finish the reason that "sanctification MUST follow."

Must follow for what exactly?
Salvation? no.

I interpreted it to mean that it must follow because we have been saved, and those who are saved are saved unto good works.

JohnB445 · Oct 31, 2018

I should have rephrased it better.

The Holy Spirit brings forth good works. has nothing to do with saving, but good fruit will happen regardless. A drive for the Lord happens as a result.

These are just indications of possessing the Holy Spirit.

I am not claiming to be correct about everything, I'll just share my view based off my own experience and through what I read in the Bible. I believe having the Holy Spirit will change our lives.

Greg J. · Nov 5, 2018

Dave L said:
None of the above. Jesus fully paid only for the sins of all who believe in him. And they will overcome all sin because it is the nature of the new birth to do so.

From the perspective of one in eternity, this may be the case, but I don't believe people can reason properly when God's perspective (which we can't have) is a part of their logic. We can basically repeat what God told us about what He sees in eternity.

From a human perspective (cause and effect), Jesus does not need to die again when someone repents. His death paid for everyone's sins, but people that do not come under His authority do not receive the benefit of it. That is, He is everyone's Savior, but not everyone benefits (1 Timothy 4:10).

1. We can't be forgiven unless we believe He is real (otherwise we would actually be repenting to an imagined figure).
2. We won't be forgiven unless we want to be forgiven (forgiveness then being contrary to our will/request).
3. We won't be forgiven unless we believe He has the authority to forgiven (though the grocery store clerk is real, he/she is not God).
4. One wouldn't be forgiven without accepting God as "my" God. If He is God but not my God, I have not accepted the truth about His authority over me (a part of which is the authority to forgive). If one is not willing to obey God, then one is trying to get something from a false God. The real God is the Lord of all.

Dave L · Nov 5, 2018

Greg J. said:
From the perspective of one in eternity, this may be the case, but I don't believe people can reason properly when God's perspective (which we can't have) is a part of their logic. We can basically repeat what God told us about what He sees in eternity.

From a human perspective (cause and effect), Jesus does not need to die again when someone repents. His death paid for everyone's sins, but people that do not come under His authority do not receive the benefit of it. That is, He is everyone's Savior, but not everyone benefits (1 Timothy 4:10).

1. We can't be forgiven unless we believe He is real (otherwise we would actually be repenting to an imagined figure).
2. We won't be forgiven unless we want to be forgiven (forgiveness then being contrary to our will/request).
3. We won't be forgiven unless we believe He has the authority to forgiven (though the grocery store clerk is real, he/she is not God).
4. One wouldn't be forgiven without accepting God as "my" God. If He is God but not my God, I have not accepted the truth about His authority over me (a part of which is the authority to forgive). If one is not willing to obey God, then one is trying to get something from a false God. The real God is the Lord of all.

This fails to take the extent of people's sin into consideration. And the blindness of the human heart in discerning between God and idols. Unless God directly saves us, we will never come up with it.

Greg J. · Nov 5, 2018

Dave L said:
... Jesus fully paid only for the sins of all who believe in him. ...

I was only addressing this statement. While it is God who saves us, which He grants through granting us to believe in Him, most people end up wondering if they are saved or question their salvation. I didn't try to explain God's role in it all, which if focused on, means we don't have to do anything, such as make a commitment to Him. While it is God that enables us to make a commitment, we still have to decide to do it, otherwise we are not forgiven even through Jesus paid for our sins.

Dave L · Nov 5, 2018

Greg J. said:
I was only addressing this statement. While it is God who saves us, which He grants through granting us to believe in Him, most people end up wondering if they are saved or question their salvation. I didn't try to explain God's role in it all, which if focused on, means we don't have to do anything, such as make a commitment to Him. While it is God that enables us to make a commitment, we still have to decide to do it, otherwise we are not forgiven even through Jesus paid for our sins.

This results in salvation only for the self-righteous. And not for those who cannot save themselves. God raises our spirit from the dead where faith is a natural reaction to hearing the gospel.

Gr8Grace · Nov 5, 2018

JohnB445 said:
I would go with justified by faith,

Saved by grace through faith.

JohnB445 said:
but sanctification must follow

And what verse says 'must?' All the verses I find say "should." Maybe we will, maybe we won't.

JohnB445 said:
and Jesus must be the Lord of your life

The Lord Jesus Christ IS the Lord of our lives. It is the height of arrogance to say, ' We must make Jesus the Lord of our lives.'

JohnB445 said:
Why do we believe and refuse to work with God's grace to transform us?

Freewill. And for a lot of us, ignorance of His Word. Most believers are taught right out of the chute to clean up their physical life, be nice, praise Jesus, a do lots of overt 'good' things. And their spiritual life is still in it's infancy........and starving.

JohnB445 said:
Has his grace even came upon those who refuse to change?

Possibly. Because we use our own volition to advance or not.

I question more those who stress their change and their 'management' of their salvation by their change.

Gr8Grace · Nov 5, 2018

Dave L said:
This results in salvation only for the self-righteous. And not for those who cannot save themselves. God raises our spirit from the dead where faith is a natural reaction to hearing the gospel.

Jailer~~What must I do to be saved?

Paul~~God has raised your spirit from the dead. You need do nothing. You are already saved......You and your household.

Is this how it went?

Which camp do you agree with?

Which camp do you agree with?

Jesus death on the cross was sufficient to pay for our sins, but sanctification must follow

Jesus death on the cross was NOT sufficient, and we are saved by our good works on our behalf

Jesus death on the cross was sufficient, and we can live lawlessly and still be saved

Jesus death on the cross was to put a brand new law in affect and we are saved it we keep it

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