Romans and Faith Alone

GingerBeer said:

There's the evidence of the claim. Testimony is evidence. Yet testimony can be unsupported by facts and in James 2:14 the faith has no works so the facts do not support the idea that the faith has any life in it. James emphasises the lack of works as evidence of lifelessness in the faith. James doesn't say the faith is false he says only that it is dead.

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Well, in which case it is faith but a false salvific faith, like as a body is a body but it is a dead body without the spirit of life, and a false teacher is still a teacher. Dead faith is set in contrast to the justifying faith of Abraham, a imputed faith that thru works was fulfilled. Faith that is alone, that does not change the person and thus his life, is dead.

The faith is real but unproductive like the branches in a vine that bear no fruit are real branches and they are really in the vine but, being unproductive, the vine dresser removes them (John 15:2). The discarded branches are gathered together and burnt (John 15:6). James is teaching what Jesus taught.

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Indeed.

The word doesn't imply that the person who is "declared righteous" is not actually in fact righteous.

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Indeed. We have forgiveness, regeneration by faith, (Acts 15:7-9) and thus sanctification in position and in profession and practice. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Galatians 5:25) And as the SBC states , "In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification."

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11-12)

The presumption is that such a person really is righteous

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Sounds like such sola fide preachers as,
A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace...his Holy Spirit producing such a change in us, that we should glorify God by our good conversation, and perseverance in holiness. None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible

...faith, without works, is a dead faith, and not like the lively hope and faith of regenerated persons: — Dr. John Gill (1690-1771), Exposition of the Entire Bible

They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. - Westminster Confession; Westminster Theological Seminary - Westminster Confession

(Note that invoking sources cannot mean i affirm all that they teach, though I mostly do here, but such are provided here as at least documenting a historical position.)

And while it is true that the righteousness that the justified person has is the righteousness of Christ given to him or her by God as grace through faith (instrumentally)

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Which is sola fide teaching.

it still does follow that justification tends to imply actual righteousness is properly attributed to the person because they are in fact righteous.

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Which is set in contrast to righteousness by regeneration as being the basis for the believer being accounted righteous enough to be with God (not that i am saying you believe this, but for purposes of contrast). Which is the RC position (with regeneration being by baptism), thus leading to the necessity of RC Purgatory, since if salvation was received by becoming good enough to be with God, then (since the defiling sinful nature still remains and soon is manifest after baptism) the same must attain that state before death or after it in order to be with God. Such is not bad enough for Hell, but not good (God) enough for Heaven. (Augustine)

That is why James says that "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24)

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If properly understood, but Catholics invoke it to suppose their doctrine, thus you can be misunderstood as espousing that.

In summation, "faith alone" as in "Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification," is set in contrast to justification by merit, but it is not speaking of faith that is alone, but faith that is a verb, which is "not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love." (Westminster confession, chapter 11)

And as such in its manifestation this confidence/reliance/faith is in effect, works, and thus faith is judged as being salvific and rewarded (Hebrews 10:35) based on its works by the Spirit. (Romans 8:14; Revelation 2:19; Mathew 25:31-40)

However, while it is disallowed that one must actually become good enough to be with God (Paul admittedly was not perfect: Philippians 3:12; yet would be with the Lord once absent from His body, as would all the believers: Philippians 1:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:17) yet the issues that i find remaining is why mere innocence is not enough to justify a person, so that all infants would go to Heaven as well as all who are only forgiven?

Mere innocence or just forgiveness not being enough means imputed righteousness is required, but if imputed perfect righteousness is enough to render one accepted in the Beloved then would the effect of regeneration needful, of not only "the washing of regeneration" but the renewing of the Holy Spirit?" (Westminster thus does hold that "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ").

But if mere innocence or simply forgiveness is not enough to justify, and the actual practical righteousness of Christ is, then regeneration fails to provide that, since the "old man," that of the carnal Adamic nature is at "enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7)

Yet if forgiveness plus only some degree of actual righteousness is enough, then there is no need for imputed righteousness.

What is manifest though is that imputed righteousness is required, but which is not received apart from forgiveness and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, even though neither actually makes the person actually perfect in character, nor needs to in order for the believer to be with the Lord.

However, the carnal nature will not be with the Lord, flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom of God, (Romans 8:7) and the believer is to strive to be in heart and in life that which he is positionally, looking forward to being made as much conformable to Christ as he can be, "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Philippians 3:20-21)

And I need to better practice what I preach.

PeaceByJesus said:

Well, in which case it is faith but a false salvific faith

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Please, tell me what a true "salvific faith" is.

GingerBeer said:

Please, tell me what a true "salvific faith" is.

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How can you even ask that when i have so often basically described it and in contrast to what it is not, including in debating those who defend OSAS? Just what has been lacking in such descriptions that you find unclear?

PeaceByJesus said:

How can you even ask that when i have so often basically described it and in contrast to what it is not, including in debating those who defend OSAS? Just what has been lacking in such descriptions that you find unclear?

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I believe it is a fair question, and clarification of a statement is always a good thing.

So what is the difference between "salvific faith" and true "salvific faith" doesn't salvific mean leading to salvation?

When someone uses the word 'true' then some theological statement, it puts up a red flag for me. It is basically saying as opposed to what you believe, so I am always a little cautious as jumping to conclusions to what the meaning is.

PeaceByJesus said:

How can you even ask that when i have so often basically described it and in contrast to what it is not, including in debating those who defend OSAS? Just what has been lacking in such descriptions that you find unclear?

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I asked because I wanted a written answer. And I wanted an answer because after all the things you wrote in your replies it sounded like "true [saving] faith" means "faith working through love" and that is what I said James was looking for. Faith that doesn't work doesn't save (hence it is not saving). And faith that works through love is saving. There's no OSAS implied - OSAS seems like a crazy doctrine to me.

GingerBeer said:

I asked because I wanted a written answer. And I wanted an answer because after all the things you wrote in your replies it sounded like "true [saving] faith" means "faith working through love" and that is what I said James was looking for. Faith that doesn't work doesn't save (hence it is not saving). And faith that works through love is saving. There's no OSAS implied - OSAS seems like a crazy doctrine to me.

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It is indeed faith working by love, and which is what James, Paul etc. are looking for, as written to you here :

"To believe is to obey," "one is accounted righteous by Biblical saving faith which enables and effects practical righteousness, (Romans 4:5)" "to believe is to obey, as to be forgiven was to walk, but only one actually obtained the deliverance [Mark 2:9-11];

No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

"it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt)

And ,

and thus those who are of "an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:15)

Thus while faith is imputed for righteousness, yet where there no confession of the Lord Jesus in word and deed (according to ability and opportunity) then there is no faith, and thus no salvation. And that is just what so many reformers taught

Saving faith will “necessarily” produce good works, because justification and sanctification are inseparable.

And ,

You and classic sola fide sources such as the Westminter Confession concur that a faith that is alone (provided opportunity to manifest) does not save.

And finally,

A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace...his Holy Spirit producing such a change in us, that we should glorify God by our good conversation, and perseverance in holiness. None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible

...faith, without works, is a dead faith, and not like the lively hope and faith of regenerated persons: — Dr. John Gill (1690-1771), Exposition of the Entire Bible

They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. - Westminster Confession; Westminster Theological Seminary - Westminster Confession

which [faith] is "not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love." (Westminster confession, chapter 11)
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I think the above does not simply seem to sound like "true [saving] faith" means "faith working through love," but says it. Thus, "And I need to better practice what I preach."

PeaceByJesus said:

It is indeed faith working by love, and which is what James, Paul etc. are looking for, as written to you here :

"To believe is to obey," "one is accounted righteous by Biblical saving faith which enables and effects practical righteousness, (Romans 4:5)" "to believe is to obey, as to be forgiven was to walk, but only one actually obtained the deliverance [Mark 2:9-11];

No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]

"it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!" (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt)

And ,

and thus those who are of "an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:15)

Thus while faith is imputed for righteousness, yet where there no confession of the Lord Jesus in word and deed (according to ability and opportunity) then there is no faith, and thus no salvation. And that is just what so many reformers taught

Saving faith will “necessarily” produce good works, because justification and sanctification are inseparable.

And ,

You and classic sola fide sources such as the Westminter Confession concur that a faith that is alone (provided opportunity to manifest) does not save.

And finally,

A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace...his Holy Spirit producing such a change in us, that we should glorify God by our good conversation, and perseverance in holiness. None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible

...faith, without works, is a dead faith, and not like the lively hope and faith of regenerated persons: — Dr. John Gill (1690-1771), Exposition of the Entire Bible

They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. - Westminster Confession; Westminster Theological Seminary - Westminster Confession

which [faith] is "not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love." (Westminster confession, chapter 11)
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I think the above does not simply seem to sound like "true [saving] faith" means "faith working through love," but says it. Thus, "And I need to better practice what I preach."

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I reject The Westminster Confession of Faith and its Calvinist doctrines but not because every words in it is in error but because some are and as Jesus said "a little leaven levens the whole lump". Some error makes the whole of the confession erroneous.

GingerBeer said:

I reject The Westminster Confession of Faith and its Calvinist doctrines but not because every words in it is in error but because some are and as Jesus said "a little leaven levens the whole lump". Some error makes the whole of the confession erroneous.

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Which is not a valid objection relative to the point of the reference, which as already explained to you, "invoking sources cannot mean i affirm all that they teach, though I mostly do here, but such are provided here as at least documenting a historical position."

If i was attacking a strawman of even Catholic Eucharistic theology I would cite Catholic sources on such, despite their leaven, and which would be a valid use.

However, I could even cite Mark Twain if he had something valid to say, as Paul cited a pagan prophet, despite the leaven in the whole of the bag. And the Lord even enjoined conditional obedience to those whose leaven He warned is ot be avoided. Thus I find your objection invalid unless I were referencing WC as some infallible document i held to, which i explained I was not.

David Cabrera said:

Except in Luther's Bible.
But seriously, some people think that "saved by faith apart from the works of the law" means indirectly Faith Alone.

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David Cabrera said:

I want someone to define me what is "work-based salvation".

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Thank you for your post. I assume most people mean keeping God's Law, the 10 Commandments, WITHOUT understanding HOW it is required for Salvation. Without the Law, how can you explain:
BELIEF - FAITH - LAW - OBEDIENCE - JUSTIFICATION - GRACE - REPENTANCE?
It all fits together! We cannot discuss one without discussing the others and expect to understand.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”

Many people sincerely believe that all one has to do is “believe on Jesus” to be saved. Jesus says this to those who believe but do not do the things He says:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven...’” (Matthew 7:21–23).
“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)?
“But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
The Importance of Belief
Jesus asked Martha... “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25–26).
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12).
Acts 16:30-31: “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” The reply was simple and direct: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household”

Acts 13:38–39 tells us that, “through this Man [Jesus Christ] is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

Belief and Obedience AND Faith are Connected
Many today seek to disconnect belief from obedience, and faith from works BUT the scriptures show the WHOLE picture of HOW they connect.
The law does not justify us. It teaches us the reason we need justification. It teaches us what sin is (1 John 3:4). Once we have sinned by breaking that law, it is through faith in the sacrifice of Christ that justification—forgiveness of past sins—takes place. The law defines sin. Faith in Christ’s sacrifice brings about justification.

This is summarized in Galatians 2:15–18: “We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.”

Paul also said, “for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified” (by Christ) (Romans 2:13). We are justified to God by Christ having paid the penalty for our past sins, but the Bible teaches that we should become diligent in keeping the commandments and (strive to) sin no more.

(James 2:19) James says “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” . “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?” (v. 20). Then, using the example of Abraham offering up his son Isaac, he says: “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (v. 22).
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?” (Hebrews 3:14–18). Then Paul sums up this passage by saying: “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief” (v. 19). He connects Belief with Obedience

Hebrews 11 is known as the “faith chapter” because it records example after example of men and women who exercised faith in the face of trials and stress. “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him” (v. 6).

Some conclude that the Apostle Paul taught against commandment keeping, but as Peter said, many have misunderstood some things Paul wrote: "as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16). Paul never contradicted Jesus by teaching commandment breaking.

Some refer to Acts 15 and claim it does away with the necessity to keep the law of God, but it says no such thing. The subject under discussion in Acts 15 was: if circumcision is necessary; not whether the commandments were "done away." Later Paul, in a letter to uncircumcised Gentile Christians said, "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (1 Corinthians 7:19). Even the Apostle to the Gentiles taught commandment keeping!

If we truly love God, we will begin keeping His commandments, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

God's Grace
Grace is a “gift from God.” But, is this grace a permanent state, such that “once saved, always saved”?
An often-misunderstood verse in Scripture. Ephesians 2:8 tells us, “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (KJV). The phrase “are ye saved” uses a present-progressive verb. A “present-progressive” verb describes an ongoing action. Any good Bible concordance will verify that the KJV correctly renders the tense of the original Greek verb. Sadly, many newer translations wrongly translate the phrase as “you have been saved”—which can wrongly imply a permanent condition—leading readers to infer wrongly the “once saved, always saved” doctrine. The most precise translation of Ephesians 2:8, in light of modern English grammar, would be that we “are being” saved through faith.

To sum up, Christians have been saved from our past sins by the blood of Christ (justification); we are now “being saved” through faith (Matthew 24:13), and we “shall be saved by His life” (Romans 5:10).

Repentance
Many preach and teach - "Just believe, and you will be saved!" BUT God tells us to repent of sin and be baptized - is THAT "salvation by works"?
What is repentance? The Greek word translated "repent" is metanoeo, which means to "think differently." One must repent of—think differently about—one's sin. But what is sin? "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4). The King James Version puts it plainly—"sin is the transgression of the law."

When we repent of sin, we are deeply sorry for having transgressed God's law. We no longer have a hostile attitude toward God and His law of liberty. We no longer have a carnal attitude that is enmity against the law of God (Romans 8:7). After repentance, we want to be in harmony with God's law of love—the Ten Commandments. Repentance brings a deep change in our thinking, and a commitment to live by every word of God. As Jesus said: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God" (Luke 4:4).

On the day of Pentecost in 31ad, in the first inspired sermon of the New Testament Church, the Apostle Peter spoke in Jerusalem to several thousand people, after which they became convicted for their part in killing the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Thousands asked Peter and the other Apostles: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37).

Here was Peter's opportunity to tell them that they did not need to do anything more than "believe." Did he tell them so? No! What did he actually say? "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 2:38). Peter proclaimed wonderful news—that they could be forgiven of their sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For this to occur, he insisted on two points—that they repent (of breaking God's Spiritual Law - The 10 Commandments), and that they be baptized. We need the Holy Spirit to overcome the downward pull of human nature. Paul described his struggles with human nature: "I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin" (Romans 7:25). Christ will live His life in us to help us combat sin and walk in His Way with a CONTINUED state of repentance (Gal 2:20)

A Defense Of God's Spiritual Law
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The effects of God's Law "done away with" in society.
Will You Follow Christ or Paul?
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What happens to faithful, repentant Christians? What happens to those who lived bad lives during this life?

OSAS is faithful and sound doctrine, John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, etc.

The verses that warn against falling away are intended to produce the fear of the LORD that is the primary safeguard against falling away, Jeremiah 32:38-40.

I would say that the way some people perceive OSAS is not faithful and sound. True OSAS is more clearly defined as POTS (Perseverance of the Saints).

David Cabrera said:

You have the wrong assumption that the adjective "eternal" is an adverb, as if it says the brother eternally has life. It is the life that it is eternal, not one possession of it. Eternal life is the life of God in Christ the Son of God, and this life is lost when one departs from Christ (The Word of Truth, 356)

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And this life is in HIS SON.....1 john 5;11

David Cabrera said:

Yeah, so?

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corinth77777 said:

And this life is in HIS SON.....1 john 5;11

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Away of putting 2 and 2 together...
bringing a passage to your statement.

My question is: when you do not have peace and joy, does that mean you have departed from Christ?

I Can't say for myself that Salvation is ever LOST, because Salvation is a LIFE...as Willard puts it. If It is Jesus's Resurrected Life, then one knows they can come to Him- all ye that are weary and heavy laden and He will give them rest. If Salvation is LOST how would they know they could come to him...where He intercedes. If they do not come they most likely will not be delivered (saved)from what ever it is.....

David Cabrera said:

You have the wrong assumption that the adjective "eternal" is an adverb, as if it says the brother eternally has life. It is the life that it is eternal, not one possession of it. Eternal life is the life of God in Christ the Son of God, and this life is lost when one departs from Christ (The Word of Truth, 356)

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Actually, in two of the references mentioned, the adjective/adverb is everlasting, not eternal. He has said to certain ones within His flock, I will never leave you nor forsake you.