Babies/children going to hell?

Serving Zion

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness
May 7, 2016
2,335
900
Revelation 21:2
✟223,022.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Based on my idea of justice. In our courts, a person found guilty of many very severe crimes gets a worse punishment than a person found guilty of one trivial crime. If a person that has 1000 evil points gets the same punishment as someone with 100 evil points or 10 evil points or 1 evil point then it would be fair for even someone virtually innocent (0.00001 evil points) to also receive the full punishment in hell. I thought it is obvious why Hitler and Satan should receive a greater punishment than say the non-Christian Dalai Lama or a nice Muslim woman who rejected Jesus.
Oh, I see. Well, it isn't as though we are discussing how God should judge, rather it is about understanding How God does judge. It sounded earlier like you might have had some insight of a certain weight to contribute in that.
I don't think the idea that most people are going to hell eternally can be reconciled with God being love either. If he needs to punish people that is ok, but I don't think it should be eternally or with equal severity.
I already know that we are looking at this in different ways, that what you have in mind is different from what I have in mind. You seem to see that God is a jailer who expresses His anger through violence at the offender. I rather see Him as one who is holy, whose company can only be enjoyed by those who are of good character. So, those unfit for His presence cannot reside with Him, they end up in some place without Him -- and there is a general collection of those sorts in that place, which is a miserable sort. It is a miserable place, and they are tormented by the despair of it.

St John wrote of the second death being a lake of fire .. and we know that the language of scripture uses fire to describe a thing that destroys worthlessness and refines metal. But, I think that going down the path of suggesting a person can come out of hell after this life is specifically contradicted by Luke 16:26.
I thought Psalm 51:5 for example was very clear.
It doesn't say what you think it says though. The translators have changed the words to convey a meaning that the original words would not convey.

The consequence of thinking the way that they would have you think, is that you will think Christianity teaches that mankind was sinless before the fall and that it can never be sinless after the fall, because there will always be children who are sinful until such time as they are born again. That teaching says that children bring sin into the world. The only natural conclusion from that, is that in order for the world to be saved from sin, it needs to be destroyed and a new one created. That is actually the devil's doctrine, and they love to get hold of minds and make them start believing that that is God's way. But it isn't God's way. Jesus said "God did not send His son to condemn the world, rather that through Him it might be saved" - God wants to save the world! .. and "The thief comes for nothing other than to steal, kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and life abundantly at that!".

.. So, there is this question that they can't yet answer. It doesn't fit with their theology of destruction, and the verse is so inconvenient to them, they ignore it every time!

Romans 7:9 "I was alive once apart from Torah but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died".
You agree that "I don't think anyone should suffer eternally"? Then is eternal hell injust?
Yes, eternal hell as you see it (as though it is punishment - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, without end), little devils with pitchforks, yeah it's injust. Just as I have said though, if the human soul is an eternal thing and the soul cannot be in the presence of God, then it's eternal place is a place of misery as a consequence (ie: not an affliction of wrath, a punishment of vengeance), then it isn't really injust, rather it is tragic. It is simply too late for them to change once the hammer falls (Ecclesiastes 9:6).
I think a limited amount of sin deserves a limited amount of punishment. But maybe sinning against an infinitely holy God deserves an infinite punishment?
Yes, I think that means to say that not everyone who sins is in fact sinning against an infinitely holy God! .. maybe this is drawing out the details of the reasoning behind the Revelation 14:11. There are those (the beast, the false prophet, and the ones who take the mark of the beast), they have sinned against the holy God. It seems to set them apart from an athiest who has lived a life of burglary, for instance. Would like to know your thoughts about that.
Well they were born immortal and it was obvious to them what their rejection of God would mean. On the other hand many people find it hard to believe that God even exists.
You've made assumptions here that I haven't seen scriptural evidence for .. could you support those where you have said "they were born immortal and it was obvious to them what their rejection of God would mean"?
BTW see the section in the following link: "Doesn't Revelation 14 tell us that people will be tormented forever?" (halfway down the page)
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Maybe just say you disagree rather than say they're lying.
I can do that if you need me to. I would be surprised though, if the truth is that God had not made His case sufficiently to them that they would stand blameless in His sight.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
....St John wrote of the second death being a lake of fire .. and we know that the language of scripture uses fire to describe a thing that destroys worthlessness and refines metal.
My sisters' pastor believes the pain it suggests is very literal:

But, I think that going down the path of suggesting a person can come out of hell after this life is specifically contradicted by Luke 16:26.
I am suggesting that maybe the unsaved aren't immortal and that they one day cease to exist. I think that is a merciful end like killing someone who is suffering can be seen as an act of mercy.

....That teaching says that children bring sin into the world. The only natural conclusion from that, is that in order for the world to be saved from sin, it needs to be destroyed and a new one created...
Also the longer the world goes on, the more people go to hell. If the end was "very soon" like Jesus said, there would have been billions of less people in hell.

....Jesus said "God did not send His son to condemn the world, rather that through Him it might be saved" - God wants to save the world!
So did Jesus stop foetuses from going to hell? I thought you were saying that was already the case. I don't really understand what you're saying.

....Just as I have said though, if the human soul is an eternal thing and the soul cannot be in the presence of God, then it's eternal place is a place of misery as a consequence (ie: not an affliction of wrath, a punishment of vengeance), then it isn't really injust, rather it is tragic. It is simply too late for them to change once the hammer falls (Ecclesiastes 9:6).
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
says "Why there is no "immortal soul" doctrine in the Bible, for the lost, at all". It says it was the Greek philosophers who believed in an immortal soul. It is a very big topic though including the Tree of Life from Eden.

There are those (the beast, the false prophet, and the ones who take the mark of the beast), they have sinned against the holy God. It seems to set them apart from an athiest who has lived a life of burglary, for instance. Would like to know your thoughts about that.
So are there different levels of guilt and punishment?

You've made assumptions here that I haven't seen scriptural evidence for .. could you support those where you have said "they were born immortal and it was obvious to them what their rejection of God would mean"?
You seem to assume humans are immortal even though there are many verses like "the wages of sin is death". I don't see any evidence which says angels are mortal. The angels would at least know that God exists. Though I guess they could assume that God might not harshly punish a rebellion.
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Is that the plot of C. S. Lewis's "The Great Divorce"? (I know a little about it). Is there any biblical support that being who you are is meant to be the punishment?

Pretty much. But I didn't say the only punishment (nor did Lewis). And the biblical support is a complex argument not suited to this thread.

Then a person that loves themself (who is evil or nice) might have a better time than a self-critical person that is trying to be a do-gooder.

Actually, C. S. Lewis's The Great Divorce does give us a picture of a narcissist in Hell (Napoleon).
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
As I understand it, Limbo was always thought of as a special zone within Hell. In Dante's Inferno, it is the 1st circle.
...only in that Medieval imagery which Dante reflects. In the teaching of the church, Limbo is or was a place or state in the afterlife that was not a place of punishment at all. It was, rather, a place of happiness...but only what is called natural happiness, not including the Beatific Vision--the big payoff that the souls in Heaven experience.
 
Upvote 0

Serving Zion

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness
May 7, 2016
2,335
900
Revelation 21:2
✟223,022.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
My sisters' pastor believes the pain it suggests is very literal:


I am suggesting that maybe the unsaved aren't immortal and that they one day cease to exist. I think that is a merciful end like killing someone who is suffering can be seen as an act of mercy.


Also the longer the world goes on, the more people go to hell. If the end was "very soon" like Jesus said, there would have been billions of less people in hell.


So did Jesus stop foetuses from going to hell? I thought you were saying that was already the case. I don't really understand what you're saying.


Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
says "Why there is no "immortal soul" doctrine in the Bible, for the lost, at all". It says it was the Greek philosophers who believed in an immortal soul. It is a very big topic though including the Tree of Life from Eden.


So are there different levels of guilt and punishment?


You seem to assume humans are immortal even though there are many verses like "the wages of sin is death". I don't see any evidence which says angels are mortal. The angels would at least know that God exists. Though I guess they could assume that God might not harshly punish a rebellion.
Ah, ok. I see now where you are coming from! .. let me give an overview of the perspective I bring:

No, God does not send foetuses to hell, because they have done no sin that they may be judged for it.

Life and death have two meanings: one is carnal, physical, while the other is spiritual. This is how Jesus and St. John are able to say in John 5:24 and 1 John 3:14, that we have passed from death into life. This is the same context of the expression Jesus used toward Nicodemus when He said "you must be born again". It is the same context that St. Paul uses when He says "I was alive once apart from Torah, but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died".

But there is a carnal death too, and I think it's quite straightforward to recognise when scripture speaks of one or the other (all it means is that I haven't yet been confused about whether scripture is speaking of one or the other).

So, there's that concept that some people in our world have spiritual life and others are spiritually dead. Jude 1:12 describes a type of person in a church who is "doubly dead" - an expression that seems to draw a picture of someone who once was born-again but has since been slain in the spirit - perhaps as those described in Hebrews 6:4-6.

So, that's eternal life - the life of eternity - the spiritual, ever-existing, "before Abraham was, I Am".

Our question is about how one gets to have the authority that they can claim to be partners with Jesus in that anointing (Romans 6:22), rather than being one on the broad road leading to destruction - having a knowledge of the scriptures but not having life (John 5:39-40, 2 Timothy 3:7, John 5:44). One is a spiritual life - a Christian who is born of the spirit, while another is a taught believer, the one having not gone through the gate but has climbed in some other way (John 10:1).

This is why I say to be wary. Your salvation is between you and Him .. and there are some who will lead you to Him while others will draw you in for themselves (consider this age-old problem: Philippians 2:19-22).

So there's a few different ways to approach knowledge: one is to use the brain and figure it out - we make logical conclusions by connecting information and memories according to the light of our perspective. Another way is to produce a formulated answer .. like a librarian finding books according to a catalogued directory, they have simply memorised all the answers. The other way, which I rely upon heavily, is judgement. When we are solving a problem, ask why it is, and then look to identify the cause. The reason it is not a popular approach, is that the questions lead us to a knowledge of the truth that ultimately isn't convenient to the one who is enjoying the problem. It's interesting, isn't it? It's John 3:19-21 in action, but that is exactly the meaning behind what Jesus said in John 4:14.

See why this is: that they have a choice as to whether they will drink the water. They are presently in a state of comfort about their not being exposed by the light (that is the question I am asking that brings the knowledge of the truth to light), so if they can overcome that barrier and in fact come forward to the light - that is the action of drinking the water that Jesus gives. So you can see that the woman was able to do that by choosing to confess the truth that she had been married many times. When you think about that, it isn't a thing that anyone could do .. she had the opportunity, being all alone with Him, to lie and deny the truth of it, and yet she didn't. And on top of that, you have to consider the cultural conditions that were especially shameful for her in the presence of an honorable Jew.

Now, when you begin observing children in that way, you'll probably notice that they're more inclined to be honest and drink that water - even to give that water (often to a grown-up's discomfort). This is because their conscience is so pure and their countenance shines bright - there is nothing about the truth that they are afraid of. In fact, children can ask some very uncomfortable questions .. and that's the way that I approach knowledge.

.. Where I am leading you in this (I haven't lost track of the point), look at 1 John 1:6-7 and see that there is a type of Christian who says they have fellowship with Him (accordingly, we know Him: Matthew 18:20), but they lie. They do not hear what God is saying in their midst, because they have hardened their ears and their heart. Sure they think they are Christian and they have badges to convince themselves of it, but truly when it comes to judging the truth, they just can't draw near to Him. They don't have fellowship with Him, and the best they can cling to is coincidences that they call signs of answered prayers. Next up though, you see there is a type who does walk in the light, and we have fellowship with each other.

Can you see now that a baby is born naked with nothing to hide? What then, is their sin that they should be afraid of God, who is love? No, rather I think that you should at this point be realising the fullness of the meaning in James 1:14-15, and how the fallen world we live in has a corrupting influence, that entices us and lures us to become a person who is no longer comfortable to walk in the light. It is the world that makes us sinners and that cuts us off from the source of life - that is Christ, who is the light of all mankind (John 1:4).

Furthermore, walking in the light is a characteristic of those who are of love - because when you study the character of love as 1 Corinthians 13 describes it, you see that love "does not keep a tally of wrongdoing, and does not rejoice in injustice but rejoices with the truth" - which I find interesting to observe as an underlying core of the philosophy behind some of the words you are speaking and the judgements you are making.

Now as you think again of what St. Paul said in Romans 7:9, you will see where I am coming from in all that I have been saying, and by what authority I discern to know those who are walking in the light.

Your sister's pastor sounds like he has been in Australia for a few years, but has come from South Africa (I hear the accent). I don't recognise the denomination though.

So I think you should be looking at me a bit differently in light of this perspective, and I just wonder how much that would change what you are saying to me, having come to better know who you are talking to.

Yes, this handling of the Word of God is sharp - revealing the very intention of the heart. I do hope you will join us! :wave:
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
...only in that Medieval imagery which Dante reflects. In the teaching of the church, Limbo is or was a place or state in the afterlife that was not a place of punishment at all. It was, rather, a place of happiness...but only what is called natural happiness, not including the Beatific Vision--the big payoff that the souls in Heaven experience.

That's more or less what Dante says, reflecting Catholic belief during his time:

"The sighs arose from sorrow without torments,
out of the crowds-the many multitudes-
of infants and of women and of men.

The kindly master said: 'Do you not ask
who are these spirits whom you see before you?
I'd have you know, before you go ahead,

they did not sin; and yet, though they have merits,
that's not enough, because they lacked baptism,
the portal of the faith that you embrace.

And if they lived before Christianity,
they did not worship God in fitting ways;
and of such spirits I myself am one.

For these defects, and for no other evil,
we now are lost and punished just with this:
we have no hope and yet we live in longing.'
"

And Dante locates this Limbo physically as a zone within Hell (the 1st circle).

As you said eaarlier, however, the Catholic church no longer accepts the idea of Limbo.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well, I was mainly replying to the idea of Limbo being a zone of Hell. But according to what you have quoted, Limbo is described as a place of sorrow and the souls there are aware of what they have lost. When, if ever, the church taught that, I don't know.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,667
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,473.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I am suggesting that maybe the unsaved aren't immortal and that they one day cease to exist.
Mark 9:49a For every one shall be salted with fire,

Salt preserves.
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This is reflecting what you imagine hell to be. Could you explain why you believe they would suffer more severely than, [less-of-an-evil person]?

@Serving Zion @JohnClay

Here is a passage that clearly indicates levels of punishment:

Luke 12:47-48 NKJV And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. (48) But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: JohnClay
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
I talked to my pastor tonight at church and when asked about Psalm 51:5 he agreed that foetuses are sinful. He said children are selfish. He isn't sure about whether they go to hell.

Tonight there was a song:
You Alone Can Rescue - Matt Redman Song Lyrics | Passion Lyrics | Christian Music Song Lyrics, Christian Music | NewReleaseToday
....You alone can lift us from the grave
You came down to find us, led us out of death...

The "grave" and "death" is literally relevant to foetuses that die but I think the song-writer intended these words to be euphemisms for eternal punishment when talking about adults.
 
Upvote 0

Serving Zion

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness
May 7, 2016
2,335
900
Revelation 21:2
✟223,022.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
@Serving Zion @JohnClay

Here is a passage that clearly indicates levels of punishment:

Luke 12:47-48 NKJV And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. (48) But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
It could become an interesting topic! .. if you consider who "they" are that will ask all the more, then you see it has to be the torturers in Matthew 18:34. We are talking about someone who is doing punishment according to God's judgement, (but not according to God's will - Ezekiel 33:11).

There is something of a pressure that is preventing us from doing The Lord's will - whether we know it or not. That pressure, what is it? I say it is the very thing that we are told we must overcome in order to be victorious: Revelation 3:21, Revelation 2:7 - but what is it? It is the sin, of course. It is the way of the world that we must take no part in (Romans 12:1-2, Revelation 18:4, 1 Peter 4:4-5).

I have written to you, children,
because you have known the Father.
I have written to you, fathers,
because you have known the One
who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
because you are strong,
the word of God abides in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.

You are from God, children, and you have overcome them, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world, so they speak from the world and the world listens to them. We are from God; whoever knows God listens to us, but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

It is clear to see that the one we must overcome is the one who is in the world. Children don't have that sense of authority (naturally), but then by the time they do get to that stage, the young man, they have already been enticed and stumbled by their sin per James 1:14-15. Unfortunately, they do still have the childlike quality to comply rather than the fatherly quality to command.
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It could become an interesting topic! .. if you consider who "they" are that will ask all the more, then you see it has to be the torturers in Matthew 18:34. We are talking about someone who is doing punishment according to God's judgement, (but not according to God's will - Ezekiel 33:11).

Of course I see this as figurative.

There is something of a pressure that is preventing us from doing The Lord's will - whether we know it or not. That pressure, what is it? I say it is the very thing that we are told we must overcome in order to be victorious: Revelation 3:21, Revelation 2:7 - but what is it? It is the sin, of course. It is the way of the world that we must take no part in (Romans 12:1-2, Revelation 18:4, 1 Peter 4:4-5).

I know. We all struggle with the siren-call of besetting sin. We must overcome.

I have written to you, children,
because you have known the Father.
I have written to you, fathers,
because you have known the One
who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
because you are strong,
the word of God abides in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.

You are from God, children, and you have overcome them, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world, so they speak from the world and the world listens to them. We are from God; whoever knows God listens to us, but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

It is clear to see that the one we must overcome is the one who is in the world. Children don't have that sense of authority (naturally), but then by the time they do get to that stage, the young man, they have already been enticed and stumbled by their sin per James 1:14-15. Unfortunately, they do still have the childlike quality to comply rather than the fatherly quality to command.

In order to overcome the devil who is in the world, we must first overcome ourselves (Romans 6:11). This is where so many Christians (myself included), struggle, and because we have not crucified ourselves (Galatians 5:24) the devil finds us easy targets.
 
Upvote 0

Serving Zion

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness
May 7, 2016
2,335
900
Revelation 21:2
✟223,022.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Of course I see this as figurative.



I know. We all struggle with the siren-call of besetting sin. We must overcome.



In order to overcome the devil who is in the world, we must first overcome ourselves (Romans 6:11). This is where so many Christians (myself included), struggle, and because we have not crucified ourselves (Galatians 5:24) the devil finds us easy targets.
Hmmm, no that's not a problem for me. It is the ones who dare to say they are Christian but they are liars. It is them that I must keep overcoming. I have already overcome the evil one and crucified the flesh. Now I turn to share that with others, that they may drink of the cup and life overflow.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,667
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,473.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
See 1 Corinthians 12:26 to see what I mean about that pressure that is holding us back. There is too much competitiveness in the churches, not enough empowerment of the various parts to do their work.
As my pastor once said:

"America is filled with churches from one end to the other; and that is just the way Satan wants it."
 
Upvote 0

food4thought

Loving truth
Supporter
Jul 9, 2002
2,929
725
50
Watervliet, MI
✟383,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hmmm, no that's not a problem for me. It is the ones who dare to say they are Christian but they are liars. It is them that I must keep overcoming. I have already overcome the evil one and crucified the flesh. Now I turn to share that with others, that they may drink of the cup and life overflow.

And how did you manage to crucify the flesh... I am really struggling with this. I still smoke cigarettes, and can't seem to quit no matter what I try.
 
Upvote 0

Serving Zion

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness
May 7, 2016
2,335
900
Revelation 21:2
✟223,022.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And how did you manage to crucify the flesh... I am really struggling with this. I still smoke cigarettes, and can't seem to quit no matter what I try.
It happens when you love truth enough. I think it always was my nature, tbh. There was a time when my knowledge was lacking necessary understanding, I believed my sin was not sin, so I was doing sin and of course I was needing to twist the scripture to make them fit my beliefs. But one day The Lord brought me to hear words that brought new understanding so I understood the gravity of the sin, and I resolved to repent of it.

The cigarettes is a different thing. It isn't a sin, but you haven't yet been brought to the place of development of faith where that is cut off. The thing is that you are judging yourself every time, and you feel powerless, and that is extra anxiety that makes you feel powerless. But if you accept yourself for who you are, you are beautiful already. Be grateful to own that testimony! .. and what happened for me when He brought me to stop smoking in 2009, one day I went to have coffee and cigarettes before work, and I looked at the packet and I just didn't like the thought of having a smoke. Then the same thing happened at morning break, and lunch time. So I went without all day, and the next day the same thing happened, so I took advantage of the head-start and gave my smokes away that day. I had quit several times before, so I have wisdom now to not go back there (knowing the various devices it tries).

I consider sin as being a thing that displaces God in us - the thing that makes us incapable of having love. So when you are smoking, you can still have The Holy Spirit (as for instance, you would give freely to someone who asks if they could join you, and you would be courteous to not smoke if it is bothering someone). Whereas, the sin of greed and pride would produce a quarrel - the fruits of the flesh (Galatians 5).

I think it's my core philosophy, afterall. I didn't choose to be born as me, so I could have just as easily been you or him or her or them, and who knows whether maybe I will have to experience myself from their point of view in the next life? Jesus said a similar thing: "Whenever you did it to the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you were doing it to me". Love: morality. The Seven Deadly Sins categorises our tendency to fall short of that perfection.

So that's an interesting observation: that although I was doing sin, it was against my nature to do so, and as soon as the light came and showed me the sin, I acknowledged it and gave it up in order to show my works proved in God's sight (John 3:19-21). Another big part of it, is on these boards for instance, there is a tendency for people to get at each others' throat, the one-up-manship, winning debates, seeing someone that they can take down in order to prove their own might. I don't have that desire though. I just do what I do, and it happens to be right. But if someone else has a point of correction for me, ok I have to take that. They will surely do a dance about it, but that's their own sin, and it only means that I have gained from them while they have suffered a loss. They didn't need to suffer a loss.

Factionism, that's what it is. Insecurity. But it's not like that with me. I make no friends and am no-one's enemy. If you are right you are right, wrong is wrong. We are all brethren in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It looks like in the Catholic church, a child is normally only morally responsible when they reach the "age of reason" which is when the child is about 7.
Person (canon law) - Wikipedia
So I guess that means that before that age they go to heaven and then after that they can go to hell. ???
Do Christians here believe something like that? What age is involved? It seems odd to me to go from being saved forever to possibly going to hell forever when they pass a specific threshold. It would make more sense to me if there was a gradual transition from saved to unsaved (though there is no neutral afterlife as far as I know).

A Christian I know says that babies and foetuses go to hell. That makes more sense because there is no longer an age threshold and just accepting Jesus would be involved. He bases it on Psalm 51:5:
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

=======================
To make it easier for me to understand what you believe could Christians please answer:

In the following, who do you believe are probably saved?

1) A foetus (unbaptised)

2) A newborn (unbaptised)

3) A newborn (baptised)

4) A 3 year old who doesn't believe in Jesus (unbaptised)

5) A 3 year old who doesn't believe in Jesus (baptised)

6) A 6 year old who doesn't believe in Jesus (unbaptised)

7) A 6 year old who doesn't believe in Jesus (baptised)

8) An adult who doesn't believe in Jesus (unbaptised)

9) An adult who doesn't believe in Jesus (baptised)

Thanks


There is no artificial deadline or test or age threshold.
There are no hoops to jump through.
Jesus said "let the children come to me" so this tells
us all children have the opportunity to be with the
Father, starting at conception even. The majority
of fertilized eggs don't make it to birth.

It's not in our hands, but in God's.

Worry and Anxiety Bible Verses
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnClay

Married Mouth-Breather
Supporter
Oct 27, 2006
1,129
186
Australia
Visit site
✟443,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
There is no artificial deadline or test or threshold.
Jesus said "let the children come to me" so this tells
us all children have the opportunity to be with the
Father, starting at conception even....
Those children were capable of choosing to come to Jesus. A foetus can't in terms of that verse.
 
Upvote 0