On Oneness In Christ

Hidden In Him · Nov 2, 2018

Blessings in Christ.

Those of you who know me know I have expressed Messianic leanings in the past.

I've been interacting with someone at another Forum who is rabidly anti-Dispensationalist, interprets "Israel" to be the church, and argues vehemently against anyone saying that literal Israel still has a place in God's divine plan. I'm Dispensationalist, so I disagree with him, but what is most troubling is that he also disparages Messianics in particular, with an almost racist tone.

Forgive me if anyone finds this offensive, but I want input from the Messianics here at Christian Forums about the following post. Comments on the veracity of any of it would be helpful, but especially your take on our oneness in Christ, i.e. the oneness of both Gentiles and Jews in the Bride of Christ, through the Spirit of God.

Thanks for taking the time to respond in advance,
Hidden In Him

"[According to Messianics], the new Covenant is between God and the 2 houses of Israel. That's it. Only THAT is biblical. It is not a covenant with the world. So then the nations have no part in the bride of Christ...which is the new Jerusalem (the capital of Israel). This makes Gentiles a sort of afterthought and an inferior people eternally.

So then in this view Gentiles cannot be saints....as saints are in the New Jerusalem and are the Bride of Christ.

Of course this is very wrong. It places adherence to an obsolete observance (Judaism) and DNA above the miraculous entrance into kingdom life. It denies grace and the power of a new life doctrinally.

Most Messianic "rabbis" (champions of this doctrine) teach some crazy things not found in the bible...such as.. there are actually 2 brides (thereby keeping the Jews superior) or else the nations are filled with.....the nations... are forever ruled over by Jews. We Gentiles are just keeping the place of the Jews open for them...until they come into the kingdom...then we will be demoted to being their servants.

I have fully investigated this and have traveled with a prominent Jewish "prophet" and know a number of Messianic teachers. They all deny the Oneness in Christ. They are and remain forever "unique" and "superior". It comes from Talmudic teachings whereby the evil of the Jew is still more righteous than the most righteous Gentile. It is like the false doctrine that Christians have that the worst Christian is still better than the best non-Christian. Same idea...same spirit.

Check it out."

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 2, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Blessings in Christ.

Those of you who know me know I have expressed Messianic leanings in the past.

I've been interacting with someone at another Forum who is rabidly anti-Dispensationalist, interprets "Israel" to be the church, and argues vehemently against anyone saying that literal Israel still has a place in God's divine plan. I'm Dispensationalist, so I disagree with him, but what is most troubling is that he also disparages Messianics in particular, with an almost racist tone.

Forgive me if anyone finds this offensive, but I want input from the Messianics here at Christian Forums about the following post. Comments on the veracity of any of it would be helpful, but especially your take on our oneness in Christ, i.e. the oneness of both Gentiles and Jews in the Bride of Christ, through the Spirit of God.

Thanks for taking the time to respond in advance,
Hidden In Him

"[According to Messianics], the new Covenant is between God and the 2 houses of Israel. That's it. Only THAT is biblical. It is not a covenant with the world. So then the nations have no part in the bride of Christ...which is the new Jerusalem (the capital of Israel). This makes Gentiles a sort of afterthought and an inferior people eternally.

So then in this view Gentiles cannot be saints....as saints are in the New Jerusalem and are the Bride of Christ.

Of course this is very wrong. It places adherence to an obsolete observance (Judaism) and DNA above the miraculous entrance into kingdom life. It denies grace and the power of a new life doctrinally.

Most Messianic "rabbis" (champions of this doctrine) teach some crazy things not found in the bible...such as.. there are actually 2 brides (thereby keeping the Jews superior) or else the nations are filled with.....the nations... are forever ruled over by Jews. We Gentiles are just keeping the place of the Jews open for them...until they come into the kingdom...then we will be demoted to being their servants.

I have fully investigated this and have traveled with a prominent Jewish "prophet" and know a number of Messianic teachers. They all deny the Oneness in Christ. They are and remain forever "unique" and "superior". It comes from Talmudic teachings whereby the evil of the Jew is still more righteous than the most righteous Gentile. It is like the false doctrine that Christians have that the worst Christian is still better than the best non-Christian. Same idea...same spirit.

Check it out."

There are definite statements in the letters of Paul that God has something in mind for the national of Israel. It is not clear exactly how the nation will be revived, but it is clear that it will come under Christ, and then brought into unity with the Gentiles so that all will be one under Christ.

The Church has not been made the Bride of Christ yet. I suspect that when Israel is dealt with in the plan and purpose of God and brought into unity with the Gentiles under Christ, then the merger of the two will be the new Israel/Bride of Christ.

Those Messianics who exclude the Gentiles from sainthood and the Bride of Christ would have been totally opposed by Paul who would have called them "false apostles"

Hidden In Him · Nov 2, 2018

Oscarr said:
Those Messianics who exclude the Gentiles from sainthood and the Bride of Christ would have been totally opposed by Paul who would have called them "false apostles"

I'm waiting to hear from Messianics themselves on if any actually do.
But do you know of any who do, Oscarr?

gadar perets · Nov 2, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Most Messianic "rabbis" (champions of this doctrine) teach some crazy things not found in the bible...such as.. there are actually 2 brides (thereby keeping the Jews superior) or else the nations are filled with.....the nations... are forever ruled over by Jews. We Gentiles are just keeping the place of the Jews open for them...until they come into the kingdom...then we will be demoted to being their servants.

I have fully investigated this and have traveled with a prominent Jewish "prophet" and know a number of Messianic teachers. They all deny the Oneness in Christ. They are and remain forever "unique" and "superior". It comes from Talmudic teachings whereby the evil of the Jew is still more righteous than the most righteous Gentile.

I have been Messianic for 32 years and have not heard of these teachings. However, there probably are some Messianics that teach them. The Messianic movement is not without false teachings.

Hidden In Him · Nov 2, 2018

gadar perets said:
I have been Messianic for 32 years and have not heard of these teachings. However, there probably are some Messianics that teach them. The Messianic movement is not without false teachings.

My response to him was along the same lines (and incredulously). He often makes these sweeping categorizations and uses the word "all" quite a bit, as in "All Dispensationalists believe this," and "All Messianics believe that." I believe he does it to incite debate.

Thanks for the response, gadar perets. It's confirmation #1 of what I suspected: He's talking out his backside, as usual.

AbbaLove · Nov 2, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
I've been interacting with someone at another Forum who is rabidly anti-Dispensationalist, interprets "Israel" to be the church, and argues vehemently against anyone saying that literal Israel still has a place in God's divine plan.

Did you mean to say "interprets the 'Church' to be Israel" (RT).

The "Church" has been constantly re-evaluating its stance/definition on RT beginning when Israel became a Nation State in '48-49, then the miracle of the Six-Day War in 1967, and now the US Embassy has relocated to Jerusalem (the Capital of Israel). You could ask two evangelicals and get three opinions on their take on RT. Some RT evangelicals are more sympathetic to Palestinians than they are to the Nation of Israel and its citizens.

Hidden In Him said:
I believe he does it to incite debate.

Wise in his own eyes (religious indoctrination) ... Romans 11:25

Zechariah 8:23

Hidden In Him · Nov 2, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Did you mean to say "interprets the 'Church' to be Israel" (RT).

Yes, and visa versa.

AbbaLove said:
The "Church" has been constantly re-evaluating its stance/definition on RT beginning when Israel became a Nation State in '48-49, then the miracle of the Six-Day War in 1967, and now the US Embassy has relocated to Jerusalem (the Capital of Israel). You could ask two evangelicals and get three opinions on their take on RT. Some RT evangelicals are more sympathetic to Palestinians than they are to the Nation of Israel and its citizens.

This one seems to have a real problem with Messianics, and the concept of Dispensationalism as a whole. It seems to go beyond a mere theological matter for him. He even asked me if I had some emotional attachment to my position. I'm not even Jewish. Why would I have an emotional attachment to it? But my suspicion is he has an emotional attachment to his. I just don't know what that is yet.

AbbaLove said:
Wise in his own eyes (religious indoctrination) ... Romans 11:25

LoL. I don't think he would appreciate that particular verse being used in reference to him.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 3, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
I'm waiting to hear from Messianics themselves on if any actually do.
But do you know of any who do, Oscarr?

No, I don't. I can't imagine any, other than some who might have extreme thoughts about it, who would ignore Scripture which recognises the special place that Israel has in the mind of God, and also shows the Gentiles brought into God's plan of salvation.

AbbaLove · Nov 3, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
He even asked me if I had some emotional attachment to my position. I'm not even Jewish. Why would I have an emotional attachment to it?

Those that Love the Word of GOD, Love Messiah Yeshua (Christ Jesus) and Love Israel ... that's my emotional (Love) definition of literal dispensationalism.

Maybe he isn't aware that it was the emotional Love of "Messianic" Jewish men that put pen to paper recording what is commonly known as the NT. Writings that are dear to the heart of all Believers; especially Messianics. His misrepresentation of the 'complete Hebrew/Jewish Bible' is an indication of his RT indoctrination ... apparently resulting in a resistance to the teaching of GOD's Holy Spirit. He studies the Bible to prove his particular theology instead of allowing the Word to teach him. Maybe, he loves his theology more than he loves Jesus.

Hidden In Him · Nov 3, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Those that Love the Word of GOD, Love Messiah Yeshua (Christ Jesus) and Love Israel ... that's my emotional (Love) definition of literal dispensationalism.

Maybe he isn't aware that it was the emotional Love of "Messianic" Jewish men that put pen to paper recording what is commonly known as the NT. Writings that are dear to the heart of all Believers; especially Messianics. His misrepresentation of the 'complete Hebrew/Jewish Bible' is an indication of his RT indoctrination ... apparently resulting in a resistance to the teaching of GOD's Holy Spirit. He studies the Bible to prove his particular theology instead of allowing the Word to teach him. Maybe, he loves his theology more than he loves Jesus.

Thanks. I think he was implying I was getting "emotional" in the sense of upset.

If by RT you mean Replacement Theology, he is not the only one. I'm astonished at how many theologians still adopt this position. It would have been one thing to do so during the Middle Ages when it appeared God was done with Israel, but now? So maybe you are right. It is still being passed down by tradition, and some grow so attached to it as a system that it becomes like a child they protect, possibly because they have been cherishing it for so long and don't like the implications of having to disown it.

Heber Book List · Nov 3, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
Thanks. I think he was implying I was getting "emotional" in the sense of upset.

If by RT you mean Replacement Theology, he is not the only one. I'm astonished at how many theologians still adopt this position. It would have been one thing to do so during the Middle Ages when it appeared God was done with Israel, but now? So maybe you are right. It is still being passed down by tradition, and some grow so attached to it as a system that it becomes like a child they protect, possibly because they have been cherishing it for so long and don't like the implications of having to disown it.

It is still being taught in a number of theological colleges / universities / graduate schools etc., etc., ergo trainee ministers learn it as fact, and teach it to their respective congregations, and so a new cycle starts.

PS I don't subscribe to the RT view

Hidden In Him · Nov 3, 2018

Heber Book List said:
It is still being taught in a number of theological colleges / universities / graduate schools etc., etc., ergo trainee ministers learn it as fact, and teach it to their respective congregations, and so a new cycle starts.

PS I don't subscribe to the RT view

I'd be curious to know what seminaries and Bible colleges don't teach Replacement Theology (if you know of many). Systems that utterly obscure end-times prophecy I count as among the most spiritually debilitating. The student is robbed of large amounts of scripture through false interpretation and false application.

Heber Book List · Nov 3, 2018

Hidden In Him said:
I'd be curious to know what seminaries and Bible colleges don't teach Replacement Theology (if you know of many). Systems that utterly obscure end-times prophecy I count as among the most spiritually debilitating. The student is robbed of large amounts of scripture through false interpretation and false application.

Not many in the UK - just a handful.

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