Was Christ seperated from the Father and the Holy Spirit when He was crucified?

HolyTheophany said:

I come from a Protestant tradition that, in my opinion, taught a very impious and heretical doctrine, which is that the Father turned away from the Son and literally "forsook" Christ on the Cross. Moreover, the idea is that Christ suffered a separation from the Father while on the Cross and in His death.

I think this horrible notion comes from people's perplexity at the words of the Lord, "Why hast Thou forsaken me?" Please, just think about this for a moment. Do you not admit that Christ is fully God Himself and that He knows all things. Indeed, the apostles even proclaim, "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God" (John 16:30). And the Lord says, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30). Paul also declares this: "Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24). Now tell me, brethren, why is it that He Who is the very Wisdom of God, Who knows all things, Who is One with the Father--why is it that He cried out this beginning verse from Psalm 22 if He presumably already knew the answer to the question He was asking, since He knows all things. For surely, He who "created all things" was never in His entire existence deprived of any knowledge, nor did He for a moment cease to be omniscient.

So please explain this mystery to me, that tens of thousands of Christians can hold the doctrine that Christ was forsaken by the Father, suffering separation from the Trinity.

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Judging by the crowds reaction, Jesus was calling on the Father, and used those words to do so.
Right after he cried out, He yielded the Ghost.
So you can interpret it in many ways.
Did God take away the Holy Spirit from Jesus, when time came. Which in turn made Jesus cry out.
Look into OT scripture, where it says God was pleased to crush His Son.
He turned his face, but not his back. Jesus was still in human form, and he spoke to Father, as a man would.
As earlier, Jesus was asking God to remove the cup from Him.
Whether something happened on a deeper spiritual level, that no one could see. Is perhaps not for us to know.
What matters is God ultimately did not forsake Jesus, and in turn exalted him.

I probably didn't answer your question, but those points are there to gather your thoughts together.

(I'm Eastern Orthodox and come from a Confessional Lutheran background - this is just speculation)

Is this a Chalcedonian distinction between Christ's humanity and divinity? According to his humanity, Christ gives up the Holy Spirit and is forsaken by the Father, but according to his divinity, he is ever One with the Father and the Spirit.

HolyTheophany said:

I come from a Protestant tradition that, in my opinion, taught a very impious and heretical doctrine, which is that the Father turned away from the Son and literally "forsook" Christ on the Cross. Moreover, the idea is that Christ suffered a separation from the Father while on the Cross and in His death.

I think this horrible notion comes from people's perplexity at the words of the Lord, "Why hast Thou forsaken me?" Please, just think about this for a moment. Do you not admit that Christ is fully God Himself and that He knows all things. Indeed, the apostles even proclaim, "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God" (John 16:30). And the Lord says, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30). Paul also declares this: "Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24). Now tell me, brethren, why is it that He Who is the very Wisdom of God, Who knows all things, Who is One with the Father--why is it that He cried out this beginning verse from Psalm 22 if He presumably already knew the answer to the question He was asking, since He knows all things. For surely, He who "created all things" was never in His entire existence deprived of any knowledge, nor did He for a moment cease to be omniscient.

So please explain this mystery to me, that tens of thousands of Christians can hold the doctrine that Christ was forsaken by the Father, suffering separation from the Trinity.

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First, let me say that I do not believe the urban legend that there was some kind of separation between the Father and Son. I think whoever teaches that has misused the scripture out of its context.

For the explanation:
You have to understand the distinction between the flesh and the spirit, and the distinction between the humanity of Christ and the divinity of Christ. In the spirit (or the Spirit), Jesus had a joy set before Him (Heb. 12:2). But in his humanity, it stands to reason that he felt much like we do in times of agony, as if God is nowhere to be seen. Therefore, I think he felt like the Father had forsaken him, although he knew in his spiritual being (the part that exercises faith in the knowledge of God) that the Father was with him, thus the "joy set before him."

Another way to see it is that he looked forsaken to others, since it says "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree." People despised him, and since he was infamous at that point, he was able to quote Ps. 22 about being forsaken, and "I am a worm, and not a man." Not that he thought of himself as a worm, but that he felt very low because of the psychological pressure of rejection by others. That is, the religious leaders thought of him as a worm, and such a thing hurts the human heart, regardless of how strong one's faith is. Jesus was subject to being hurt psychologically, as he was tempted in all points as we are, but without sinning.

I had heard that idea about separation several times before, but it never clicked with me because I know too much scripture to accept such nonsense.

So please explain this mystery to me, that tens of thousands of Christians can hold the doctrine that Christ was forsaken by the Father, suffering separation from the Trinity.

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False teachings are rampant in this era, and many people are hindered by persuasive words that distort their vision of God.
TD

Right off the cuff, I'd say there is nothing in the bibles that says Jesus could never be confused, it just said he never sinned. Was his question to the almighty, the "man" side of Christ crying out in desperation, and that's the end of it?

Fact is, he was never forsaken, we have no reason to believe Jesus did not retain the God given power to stop what was happening to him anything he chose, yet he did not...thank God!

This was a choice God and Christ both made, neither of them were forced, and that's the beauty of it.

What great love for man from both God, and Christ it took to not stop what both could have stopped anytime....perplexing

Jesus was starting Psalm 22:1

In so doing, he drew everyone's attention to the prophesied fulfillment of Psalm 22:15 and Psalm 22:18 occurring at the foot of his cross

Simultaneously, he was proclaiming God's Name to His people = Psalm 22:22

And exhorting all those present to obey Psalm 22:23, follow heed obey

And was predicting, in turn, Psalm 22:27-31 = global gentile expansion of His ministry to become the Church

as to the answer to the OP, Psalm 22:24 = Jesus cried out from the Cross on earth and God in heaven heard him ("detected the pressure waves in earth's atmosphere", so to speak), no God did not hide His face from him

HolyTheophany said:

I appreciate your reply. Nonetheless, my intent for this thread was to hear from Christians who hold this doctrine and understand why they believe that the Father "turned away from" or "forsook" Christ?

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I would ask the to read the rest of Psalm 22

EDIT: Isn't this why the Creeds stipulate that Jesus Christ was inseparably, un-separated-ly, one ?

AMM said:

(I'm Eastern Orthodox and come from a Confessional Lutheran background - this is just speculation)

Is this a Chalcedonian distinction between Christ's humanity and divinity? According to his humanity, Christ gives up the Holy Spirit and is forsaken by the Father, but according to his divinity, he is ever One with the Father and the Spirit.

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Jesus' final words = Psalm 22:1

which cues us to the whole entire Psalm 22

Psalm 22:24 states that God the father listened to Jesus on the cross

the Divine element ("Christ the Son the Divine Word Logos") never left the human element ("Jesus' human nature")

they remained ever inseparably un-separated

per the Creeds (yes???)

Since Jesus said " The kingdom of God is within you " Luke 17 :21 you can always go within yourself and ask him. He will say he thought God would send angels to rescue him from the cross and prove who he was .When that didn't happen he made peace with it and gave up the last ghost whereby he ascended .Living his teaching "Resist not evil "

HolyTheophany said:

I come from a Protestant tradition that, in my opinion, taught a very impious and heretical doctrine, which is that the Father turned away from the Son and literally "forsook" Christ on the Cross. Moreover, the idea is that Christ suffered a separation from the Father while on the Cross and in His death.

I think this horrible notion comes from people's perplexity at the words of the Lord, "Why hast Thou forsaken me?" Please, just think about this for a moment. Do you not admit that Christ is fully God Himself and that He knows all things. Indeed, the apostles even proclaim, "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God" (John 16:30). And the Lord says, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30). Paul also declares this: "Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24). Now tell me, brethren, why is it that He Who is the very Wisdom of God, Who knows all things, Who is One with the Father--why is it that He cried out this beginning verse from Psalm 22 if He presumably already knew the answer to the question He was asking, since He knows all things. For surely, He who "created all things" was never in His entire existence deprived of any knowledge, nor did He for a moment cease to be omniscient.

So please explain this mystery to me, that tens of thousands of Christians can hold the doctrine that Christ was forsaken by the Father, suffering separation from the Trinity.

Click to expand...

You're referring to Jesus' quote of Psalm 22:1. If we read Ps 22 we find many elements of the crucifixion.

• All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him." Ps 22:7,8
• I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. Ps 22:14
• They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. Ps 22:18

Christ, of course cannot be separated from the Trinity, but he could be abandoned to his fate - suffering and dying as an innocent victim of unjustified suffering. That's what he's alluding to. Indeed in Gethsemane he prayed to be rescued from that fate, but in the end gave in to God's will for him to suffer that fate.

As a victim of unjustified suffering he was entitled to compensation as a matter of justice. I take it that's how the atonement worked - paying for the sins of the world with the compensation he received for being subject to unjustified suffer. This in contrast to the idea of God pretending him to be guilty of the sins of the world and pour wrath on him. I disagree with that as it's contrary to God's judicial nature.

HolyTheophany said:

the Lord says, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30).

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God can not break Himself off from Himself; so yes They were never separated.

In Psalm 22 the writer asks why the LORD has forsaken him, but then the writer goes right on to acknowledge how, really, God has always been true. I see this means that maybe outwardly we can be forsaken . . . or in appearance be forsaken . . . but in us no. Jesus was maybe quoting scripture for anyone who knew that, so they could get His communication that He was not really forsaken.

Our Apostle Paul says Jesus became a curse for us, by hanging on a tree. This was legal and outward. But Paul also says we need to love like Jesus was loving on the cross >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, on the cross Jesus was not forsaken by our Father, the way certain people mean, if He was sweetly pleasing to our Father.

What matters is which way do people go with their doctrine.

Paul is saying we need to be sweetly pleasing and all-loving like Jesus on the cross, in all our affairs. This is what I get out of what Paul says.

So, is this what someone gets out of saying our Father turned His back on Jesus, on the cross? Or, are they taking attention elsewhere?

And the ones who argue otherwise, are they taking people to how Paul says to follow Christ's example on the cross, or are they only or mainly calling attention to how they are right in their doctrine?

Jesus on this earth is our example. We can stay sweetly pleasing > sweet-smelling to God Himself > while we go through suffering and trouble for Jesus. We can be doing God's loving, while people are hating and torturing us, like Jesus loved the ones who were hating and torturing and murdering Jesus God's own Son.

But this is not what gets attention by some number of people. Ones can say yay look at how Jesus loved us by being rejected by our Father and subjected to God's wrath for us; ones claim Jesus went to hell and suffered all the suffering combined which we would have suffered in hell, so we don't; others say, no, Jesus was forsaken only physically. And then they say Jesus by doing that has finished all the work that is needed, and so we are guaranteed Heaven, no matter what we do.

But the writer of Hebrews says a child of God is also guaranteed how our Father corrects us so we share with Him in His holiness, in the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" which is in His love > Hebrews 11:4-11. But there are ones who guarantee Heaven to a believer, but they leave out this part of the guarantee of our salvation.

Plus, ones do not say we are required to follow the example of Jesus on the cross, even though our Apostle Paul clearly commands this and this is possible with God, and this is basic of what will happen as Jesus grows in us as our new inner Person and we gain more and more real correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 > and the perfection of God's love > 1 John 4:17. And God's word guarantees how His word "shall accomplish" all which God desires > Isaiah 55:11 < so, if we have trusted in Christ (Ephesians 1:12), this is guaranteed, how God's word "shall" have us following Christ's example on the cross and gaining real correction of His love's perfection in our nature, more and more as we grow in Jesus.