Absolute Predestination

ClementofA

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It is a valid description. Ultimately, salvation is wholly dependent on man and what he choose do with his supposedly "free will".

If there's no libertarian free will (LFW), then you have:

1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.
2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

Of course endless hell is unscriptural:

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If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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Dave L

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Why don't you answer the questions? I'll enumerate them for you.

1.Salvation in the day of the Lord Jesus, is being delivered to Satan to destroy the flesh, right?

2. Were they not saved while living in the flesh?

3. Why aren't many people delivered to Satan today to destroy their flesh, so they may be saved later?

4. Jesus never said this was the way to salvation. Why would you believe someone can be delivered to Satan to be saved?
You need to brush up on basic Christian doctrine, then it will make sense.
 
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roman2819

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Predestination in the bible does not mean God control individuals.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ... 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one ...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.

You've been told plenty of times that this position is a straw man argument. You argue against a position that nobody holds. Yet, you persist, because an enemy that you can easily defeat is preferable to the one that you can't even understand.

2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.

God is the only first cause. Since the beginning of eternity he was the only first cause. Beside him there is no other. Any other first cause would be self-extant, and that means it would have existed also since the beginning of eternity, and it would have been a god, and infinite, and that means it would have also been God, because infinity can not be multiple without also being singular. To regard something else as a first cause is the idolatry of Free Will.

3. God alone is responsible for all sin.

He who sins is responsible for his own sin. God cannot sin, because sin is defined by who God is. To define sin any other way is to judge God against some other standard, even higher than God, which, again, is why Free Will has become an idol.

4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

People are sent to Hell for their own sins. God has every right to do what he chooses regarding his own creation. Anyone who refuses him that right serves another god.
 
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YeshuaFan

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Why did you not answer the question? If you don't believe Jesus, or are ashamed of what He said, you can tell us. Many don't believe what He said about entering life by keeping the commandments.

Sure, all have sinned, but what does that have to do with keeping His commandments to enter life?
Paul stated that NONE shall ever be justified before God but being doers of the law, correct?
 
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YeshuaFan

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You've been told plenty of times that this position is a straw man argument. You argue against a position that nobody holds. Yet, you persist, because an enemy that you can easily defeat is preferable to the one that you can't even understand.



God is the only first cause. Since the beginning of eternity he was the only first cause. Beside him there is no other. Any other first cause would be self-extant, and that means it would have existed also since the beginning of eternity, and it would have been a god, and infinite, and that means it would have also been God, because infinity can not be multiple without also being singular. To regard something else as a first cause is the idolatry of Free Will.



He who sins is responsible for his own sin. God cannot sin, because sin is defined by who God is. To define sin any other way is to judge God against some other standard, even higher than God, which, again, is why Free Will has become an idol.



People are sent to Hell for their own sins. God has every right to do what he chooses regarding his own creation. Anyone who refuses him that right serves another god.
The "god" that many are fighting against in regards to election and predestination would be Allah of the Muslims, as he indeed per them is acting as they accuse Yahweh of the Bible of doing!
 
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FineLinen

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People are sent to Hell for their own sins. God has every right to do what he chooses regarding his own creation. Anyone who refuses him that right serves another god.

Dear nonexistent member: God indeed does have "every right to do what He chooses"! That choice completely within Himself is His will, the Will of all wills. Do you know what the Will of God is? He wills all mankind to be saved, the word in koine is thelo. All, of course is the radical all/pas, and He radically does exactly what He has determined within Himself!

Super Radical= ta panta=

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists & in Him the all ends.."

Not only "panta": the little "ta" preceding it! He is the ta panta of the ALL.
 
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ClementofA

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He who sins is responsible for his own sin.

Only if sinners have libertarian freewill (LFW). Any Christian theology (e.g. Calvinism) that rejects LFW leads to these conclusions:

1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.
2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

Of course endless hell is unscriptural:

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If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?
 
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Albion

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Only if sinners have libertarian freewill (LFW). Any Christian theology (e.g. Calvinism) that rejects LFW leads to these conclusions:

1. We are all puppets in God's puppet show.
2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.
3. God alone is responsible for all sin.
4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.
Or 5. God decides in advance who will receive faith and so be saved. Other choices we make in life are not predetermined.
 
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ClementofA

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Or 5. God decides in advance who will receive faith and so be saved. Other choices we make in life are not predetermined.

What theology is that? Or who believes it? Calvinists? Arminians? Others?

God's decisions who will be saved is based on the libertarian free will (LFW) choices we make in life. Otherwise those choices are pointless. Since God can't know LFW choices before they occur, He can't decide in advance who will receive faith & so be saved.
 
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Albion

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What theology is that? Or who believes it? Calvinists? Arminians? Others?

Calvinists.

God's decisions who will be saved is based on the libertarian free will (LFW) choices we make in life. Otherwise those choices are pointless. Since God can't know LFW choices before they occur, He can't decide in advance who will receive faith & so be saved.

I guess I dont agree with any of that.
 
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YeshuaFan

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What theology is that? Or who believes it? Calvinists? Arminians? Others?

God's decisions who will be saved is based on the libertarian free will (LFW) choices we make in life. Otherwise those choices are pointless. Since God can't know LFW choices before they occur, He can't decide in advance who will receive faith & so be saved.
To be able to have true and full free will, one must have the capability to not being persuaded or affected in making a decision by either internal/external forces, and only God can claim that!
 
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YeshuaFan

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Dear nonexistent member: God indeed does have "every right to do what He chooses"! That choice completely within Himself is His will, the Will of all wills. Do you know what the Will of God is? He wills all mankind to be saved, the word in koine is thelo. All, of course is the radical all/pas, and He radically does exactly what He has determined within Himself!

Super Radical= ta panta=

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists & in Him the all ends.."

Not only "panta": the little "ta" preceding it! He is the ta panta of the ALL.
Per paul, the very first Calvinist, God creates for his glory both those for honor and for dishonor, as per Romans!
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Lists of verses supporting free will:

Biblical proof of free will

"5 ARGUMENTS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF FREE WILL":

5 Arguments For The Existence Of Free Will

"What is the biblical basis for free will?":

What is the biblical basis for free will?

"freewill as taught in scripture":

Freewill as Taught in Scripture
Thanks for offering your links....short on time now, but will go over each and every one.

Mt23:37- you will not ....is what it says...It is a declaration of their condition.more later
 
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Anto9us

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"Since God can't know LFW choices before they occur, He can't decide in advance who will receive faith & so be saved."

I disagree with that -- it is limiting the Foreknowledge of God -- which is the BASIS for predestination.

God foreknows who will believe and persevere in believing.
 
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ClementofA

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"Since God can't know LFW choices before they occur, He can't decide in advance who will receive faith & so be saved."

I disagree with that -- it is limiting the Foreknowledge of God -- which is the BASIS for predestination.

God foreknows who will believe and persevere in believing.

The theology of Open Theism limits the foreknowledge of God. God doesn't know LFW choices before they are made. So individuals are not predestined to salvation before they were conceived or the world was created.
 
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EmSw

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You need to brush up on basic Christian doctrine, then it will make sense.

I don't adhere to, nor care for, basic Christianity that man makes up. When one does not pray 'lead us not into temptation', he is fed to the devil by God, is a man-made doctrine. This is why you cannot provide any passage which states such.

And no, I do not need to brush up on what you believe. Sorry Dave, no man-made doctrine will make sense to me.
 
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EmSw

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Paul stated that NONE shall ever be justified before God but being doers of the law, correct?

You need to go back to the OT, and actually read what it says.

Now those who desire to keep the Pharisee's law, which Paul was familiar with, then no, no one will be justified keeping their law.

But God's true law is quite different. The law which you should be familiar with if God has written it upon your heart.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

And just in case you want to say the law was abolished or such some thing, I will remind you of Jehovah's actual words.

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

2 Kings 17:37
And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

Psalm 119:44
So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

Isaiah 24:5
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Surely you know what 'forever, evermore, ever and ever, and everlasting' mean.

So now, do you believe Jesus and His words or do you not?

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
 
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