JW are people being predestined to hell really fair?

Halbhh

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OK, so we do not have that to consider.



You think that the people you have personally talked to about it and/or the comments online you have read make it "widespread?" I would have to disagree with that. For one thing, what are we to take as the meaning of "widespread?" Is it commonplace or simply dispersed?

Actually, I was more interested in your statement that it is "standard" (in Christianity). That is surely not true, since hardly any church accepts the notion. It may be old, but it is not standard.
Yes, definitely widespread, commonplace, and in all the denominations including even smaller, less common denominations also.

By "standard" i do not claim dominate nationally nor rigidly adapted as the only allowed valid view in various churches. I meant commonplace, well supported, and a mainstream view present in all churches in the pews. What many believe. Not a lately thing. I'm sure a pastor could intimidate people into being silent about it locally, just like someone could make people to be silent about their belief in guided evolution.
 
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Halbhh

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You think that the people you have personally talked to about it and/or the comments online you have read make it "widespread?" I would have to disagree with that. For one thing, what are we to take as the meaning of "widespread?" Is it commonplace or simply dispersed?

It occurs to me we may be talking of two different things. Example: I bet a formal belief in a precise clear thing like "conditional immortality" or even annihilation where if you asked : "Do you believe in Annihilationism for those that don't make it into eternal life, yes or no?" I bet a survey question like that would garner less than 2% or 3% saying yes.

That's not at all what I'm talking about though.

Instead in referring to the commonplace belief that those that don't make it in the day of judgement will not suffer an infinite punishment, but instead will suffer only a limited (or no) suffering. (In other words, an unclear view equal to Annihilationism). That broad bag of alike views (the same thing in varying clothing, things that may sound different from each other but are only superficially different). For that I'm guessing in the U.S. that limited suffering is the view of between 1/3rd and 2/3rd of all Christians under age 60. Does that help clarify what I meant? I don't know if that proportion believing in limited or finite or no suffering is something like 22% or 70% of course. I feel now after hundreds of instances of seeing it, that it's more than just a few percent though. that's abundantly clear, in that it's hard to locate people in person that actually will say they believe in an infinite duration of suffering, and also less common on the internet than the finite suffering alternatives. It feels like a majority feel it would be a limited or finite amount of suffering. You can entirely disagree, and I won't worry if you do. We all plan to avoid it either way.
 
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roman2819

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Predestination in the bible does not mean God control individuals.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
 
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Albion

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Instead in referring to the commonplace belief that those that don't make it in the day of judgement will not suffer an infinite punishment, but instead will suffer only a limited (or no) suffering. (In other words, an unclear view equal to Annihilationism).

FWIW, I don't think for a moment that either of these variations on the idea of Annihilationism can be described as commonly-held.

Even if they were, it would be because of laypersons misunderstanding the teaching of their churches, which wouldn't be something of any particular significance unless we were discussing how mixed-up the so-called "man in the pew" can get things. In that case, we would be having a different conversation. ;)
 
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Halbhh

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FWIW, I don't think for a moment that either of these variations on the idea of Annihilationism can be described as commonly-held.

Even if they were, it would be because of laypersons misunderstanding the teaching of their churches, which wouldn't be something of any particular significance unless we were discussing how mixed-up the so-called "man in the pew" can get things. In that case, we would be having a different conversation. ;)
this is just understanding "destroy", "kill", "perish", and "second death" as meaning what they will mean when we notice they aren't being presented as metaphors. But our salvation doesn't depend on this interpretation even slightly. It's ok to be unaware of which way the words are meant. Put another way, esoteric knowledge isn't key for salvation nor for living a Christian life. This only is key to help a seeker such on this question, to realize there is a well supported interpretation where the punishment isn't infinite, but still is profound and eternal. Removing a stumbling block for the seeker. He/she doesn't have to even know which is correct then to proceed, stumbling block removed. (But I think the second death really is a death. I present this view only because I think it's correct. The other view doesn't fit scripture. E.g Romans 2:6 for instance)
 
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Berl

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How can the pottery say to the potter, “why did you make me like this”?

It is God’s choice to take with him to heaven who he will.

God chooses some and rejects others according to his purpose.
Notice Jeremiah revealed the marred clay wasn't discarded, even though we may feel deserted and forsaken as the old man dies to the flesh.
 
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roman2819

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How can the pottery say to the potter, “why did you make me like this”?

It is God’s choice to take with him to heaven who he will.

God chooses some and rejects others according to his purpose.

In the book of Romans, Ephesians or NT, Paul and Peter were not referring to individuals. Instead, Paul was saying that God had the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. This was to answer the Jews who used to be God's exclusive people (for 2000 years since Abraham's time); they were astounded and resentful that God also reached out to the Gentiles. Paul was not saying that the Potter choose to save Jack or Jane individually.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2 and 3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ... 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
 
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Solomon Smith

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In the book of Romans, Ephesians or NT, Paul and Peter were not referring to individuals. Instead, Paul was saying that God had the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. This was to answer the Jews who used to be God's exclusive people (for 2000 years since Abraham's time); they were astounded and resentful that God also reached out to the Gentiles. Paul was not saying that the Potter choose to save Jack or Jane individually.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2 and 3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ... 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.

Wrong. The Bible is quite clear that individuals are predestined.
 
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tampasteve

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MOD HAT ON

Please note this particular forum's SOP rule:
  • Debates are only between orthodox Christian members and members of the specific non-Christian religion or faith being challenged.
So far as I can see there are no JW members posting in this thread. The Debate Other Religions forum is not intended for debate between users defined as "Christian" by CF. Please start another thread in the appropriate forum to debate between Christians.

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roman2819

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How can the pottery say to the potter, “why did you make me like this”?

It is God’s choice to take with him to heaven who he will.

God chooses some and rejects others according to his purpose.

In letter of Romans , Paul was saying that God, as the potter, has the right to offer redemption to the Gentiles. He was not referring to individual redemption. In Romans, Paul explained that the Jews had a great lineage as descendants of Abraham and Jacob, and they used to be God's people exclusively while the Gentiles were not. But now, things have changed and Gentiles had access to God too, through Christ.

If God predestine individuals, surely Jesus would have spoken substantially about it during his ministry on earth -- but He didn't. Some people misquote His words, "no one comes to the Father but through me" to mean individual predestination by God, but Jesus was saying that people are sinful to be saved by their own merits or work, and He was going to be their own access to God, if they confessed their sins through the Son.
 
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