Who was the last king of Judah?

Nihilist Virus · Nov 2, 2018

Was it Zedekiah, son of Josiah?

Shallum, AKA Jehoahaz (these are the same person according to Jeremiah 22:11 and 2 Kings 22:30), was 23 years old when he began to reign according to 2 Kings 23:31 and 2 Chronicles 36:2.

According to 1 Chronicles 3:15-16, Shallum is Josiah's youngest son of the four mentioned. Zedekiah is his older brother.

But then 11 years later, when Shallum is dead (though he would be 34 years old), we see that his older brother, Zedekiah, is only 21 according to 2 Kings 24:18 and 2 Chronicles 36:11.

So either Zedekiah is younger than his younger brother (I shouldn't have to say this is impossible), or else 1 Chronicles 3:15-16 does not intend to be listing the sons in order of birth despite explicitly doing so, or else it's a different Zedekiah who became king.

So was it Zedekiah, son of Jehoiakim? (This Zedekiah is nephew of the other Zedekiah.)

Jeremiah 36:30 states that God cursed Jehoiakim. Jehoiakim is told he will have no one to sit on the throne of David. And yet Zedekiah, his son, was the last king of Judah and reigned for 11 years. That prophecy would've been great had it been addressed to Zedekiah. Instead the prophecy was an immediate failure.

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Zedekiah son of Josiah was technically the last king of Judah before Jerusalem finally fell to Babylon in 587 BC. He was installed by Nebuchadnezzar in place of Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) his nephew.

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

And there is no Zedekiah son of Jehoiakim.

Not David · Nov 2, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
Was it Zedekiah, son of Josiah?
To be honest, that's the weirdest idea to stop believing in God.
The last King was Zedekiah son of Josiah. If you are going to say that the prophecy wasn't completed, you could say that Jehoiakim's son was in the throne when God said that his descendents wouldn't be in it. However, it is also considered that the time Jedahiah stayed in it would consider him a king.
Shallum, AKA Jehoahaz (these are the same person according to Jeremiah 22:11 and 2 Kings 22:30), was 23 years old when he began to reign according to 2 Kings 23:31 and 2 Chronicles 36:2.

According to 1 Chronicles 3:15-16, Shallum is Josiah's youngest son of the four mentioned. Zedekiah is his older brother.

But then 11 years later, when Shallum is dead (though he would be 34 years old), we see that his older brother, Zedekiah, is only 21 according to 2 Kings 24:18 and 2 Chronicles 36:11.

So either Zedekiah is younger than his younger brother (I shouldn't have to say this is impossible), or else 1 Chronicles 3:15-16 does not intend to be listing the sons in order of birth despite explicitly doing so, or else it's a different Zedekiah who became king.

So was it Zedekiah, son of Jehoiakim? (This Zedekiah is nephew of the other Zedekiah.)

Jeremiah 36:30 states that God cursed Jehoiakim. Jehoiakim is told he will have no one to sit on the throne of David. And yet Zedekiah, his son, was the last king of Judah and reigned for 11 years. That prophecy would've been great had it been addressed to Zedekiah. Instead the prophecy was an immediate failure.

Nihilist Virus · Nov 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Zedekiah son of Josiah was technically the last king of Judah before Jerusalem finally fell to Babylon in 587 BC. He was installed by Nebuchadnezzar in place of Jehoiachin (Jeconiah) his nephew.

Let me know when you take the time to read what I said.

Tree of Life said:
And there is no Zedekiah son of Jehoiakim.

1 Chronicles 3:16. It's in the OP. Clearly you didn't read it. This is a massive disappointment.

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
Let me know when you take the time to read what I said.

Yeah I'm not seeing the problem. Neither are the Biblical scholars. The last king of Judah is Zedekiah, Josiah's son.

1 Chronicles 3:16. It's in the OP. Clearly you didn't read it. This is a massive disappointment.

Oh interesting. Missed him. He only occurs in 1 Chron 3:16 in Scripture. He doesn't do anything else.

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Maybe the issue is with your timeline on Shallum. I'm not seeing where you're getting that from. Remember, there were several Shallums. A different Shallum was king of Israel for a time (not Judah).

Nihilist Virus · Nov 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Maybe the issue is with your timeline on Shallum. I'm not seeing where you're getting that from. Remember, there were several Shallums. A different Shallum was king of Israel for a time (not Judah).

I have a typo in the OP. It's 2 Kings 23:30, not 2 Kings 22:30. Chapter 22 has no 30th verse. In any case, I copied this word for word at your behest and made a thread here because you said you'd read it.

It's not relevant if there was a King Shallum of Israel because these are the latter days of Judah and Israel is already in captivity. Just *read what I am saying.*

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
I have a typo in the OP. It's 2 Kings 23:30, not 2 Kings 22:30. Chapter 22 has no 30th verse. In any case, I copied this word for word at your behest and made a thread here because you said you'd read it.

It's not relevant if there was a King Shallum of Israel because these are the latter days of Judah and Israel is already in captivity. Just *read what I am saying.*

It seems that Jehoahaz would've had to have been older than Zedekiah. It's noteworthy that Zedekiah is his full brother while Jehoiakim was his half brother. The order in Chronicles could be due to children coming from different wives. It is widely recognized that Jehoahaz was older than Zedekiah.

Nihilist Virus · Nov 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
It seems that Jehoahaz would've had to have been older than Zedekiah. It's noteworthy that Zedekiah is his full brother while Jehoiakim was his half brother. The order in Chronicles could be due to children coming from different wives. It is widely recognized that Jehoahaz was older than Zedekiah.

The sons of Josiah: Johanan the firstborn, Jehoiakim the second son, Zedekiah the third, Shallum the fourth.

Jacob had four wives and there wasn't any trouble in recording the correct order in which his children were born.

Historically, yes, obviously Jehoahaz was the oldest. But we're not here to analyze the Bible from a historian's perspective. You said that it is inerrant, and this is an error. Plain and simple.

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
The sons of Josiah: Johanan the firstborn, Jehoiakim the second son, Zedekiah the third, Shallum the fourth.

Jacob had four wives and there wasn't any trouble in recording the correct order in which his children were born.

Historically, yes, obviously Jehoahaz was the oldest. But we're not here to analyze the Bible from a historian's perspective. You said that it is inerrant, and this is an error. Plain and simple.

It's possible that the order in Chronicles is not meant to be an order of birth. The Chronicler is simply naming four sons. I don't have a problem with it. *shrug*

Is this the best you can do when you claim the Bible contradicts itself?

Nihilist Virus · Nov 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
It's possible that the order in Chronicles is not meant to be an order of birth. The Chronicler is simply naming four sons. I don't have a problem with it. *shrug*

It specifically says firstborn, second, third, and fourth. It's not simply naming sons, like "the sons of Noah were Shem, Ham, and Japheth." Noah's list does not imply order. Josiah's list explicitly gives order.

Is this the best you can do when you claim the Bible contradicts itself?

Well it was pulling teeth just to get you to read what I had to say, so I'm not going to bother with something else. If you're done here, fine. But most Christians acknowledge this is an error. I don't know what your hangup is.

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
It specifically says firstborn, second, third, and fourth. He's not simply naming sons, like "the sons of Noah were Shem, Ham, and Japheth." Noah's list does not imply order. Josiah's list explicitly gives order.

*shrug* Maybe. Maybe not.

Well it was pulling teeth just to get you to read what I had to say, so I'm not going to bother with something else. If you're done here, fine. But most Christians acknowledge this is an error. I don't know what your hangup is.

I don't know if you've ever pulled teeth but it's not this hard. You have thin skin.

Nihilist Virus · Nov 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
*shrug* Maybe. Maybe not.

I don't know if you've ever pulled teeth but it's not this hard. You have thin skin.

Does it or does it not explicitly say "firstborn", "second", "third", and "fourth"?

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
Does it or does it not explicitly say "firstborn", "second", "third", and "fourth"?

It certainly says "firstborn" which is the Hebrew bachar, but beyond this official position the order of birth is not of importance. The Hebrew words for "second, third, and fourth" don't necessarily indicate an order of birth. They could equally mean "a second, a third, a fourth". All that the Chronicler necessarily says is that Josiah had four sons and it names his firstborn.

Nihilist Virus · Nov 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
It certainly says "firstborn" which is the Hebrew bachar, but beyond this official position the order of birth is not of importance. The Hebrew words for "second, third, and fourth" don't necessarily indicate an order of birth. They could equally mean "a second, a third, a fourth". All that the Chronicler necessarily says is that Josiah had four sons and it names his firstborn.

International Standard Version
Josiah's descendants included Johanan his firstborn, his second born Jehoiakim, his third born Zedekiah, and his fourth born Shallum.

NET Bible
The sons of Josiah: Johanan was the firstborn; Jehoiakim was born second; Zedekiah third; and Shallum fourth.

Do you disavow these translations?

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
International Standard Version
Josiah's descendants included Johanan his firstborn, his second born Jehoiakim, his third born Zedekiah, and his fourth born Shallum.

NET Bible
The sons of Josiah: Johanan was the firstborn; Jehoiakim was born second; Zedekiah third; and Shallum fourth.

Do you disavow these translations?

They are possible but not necessary. Here's the Hebrew text:

וּבְנֵי֙ יֹאשִׁיָּ֔הוּ הַבְּכוֹר֙ יוֹחָנָ֔ן הַשֵּׁנִ֖י יְהוֹיָקִ֑ים הַשְּׁלִשִׁי֙ צִדְקִיָּ֔הוּ הָרְבִיעִ֖י שַׁלּֽוּם׃

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

The most literal, wooden translation of the Hebrew would be this:

"And the sons of Josiah, the firstborn Johanan, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum."

Nihilist Virus · Nov 2, 2018

Tree of Life said:
They are possible but not necessary. Here's the Hebrew text:

וּבְנֵי֙ יֹאשִׁיָּ֔הוּ הַבְּכוֹר֙ יוֹחָנָ֔ן הַשֵּׁנִ֖י יְהוֹיָקִ֑ים הַשְּׁלִשִׁי֙ צִדְקִיָּ֔הוּ הָרְבִיעִ֖י שַׁלּֽוּם׃

So basically I show you a contradiction and all you have to say is, "Well, it says such-and-such, but it could actually mean something else." A game I can never win. We might as well play a game where you choose a number between one and a hundred, you don't write it down, and every time I get it wrong I have to pay you $50.

Tree of Life · Nov 2, 2018

Bachar is an official position in the family called firstborn. But there are no verbs in the Hebrew sentence. It's just a list of names. It does not say "he was born second" and "he was born third". It simply says "the second...the third..."

Who was the last king of Judah?

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