Is the GREAT CITY in Revelation symbolizing the LAKE OF FIRE?

Could the Great City in Revelation be symbolizing the Lake of Fire?

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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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LittleLambofJesus said:
Interesting.
Thank you for your input E N.
Good post and very helpful. Thanks for bringing that up M B .......
3 of the verses of the phrase "Lake of Fire" contain the word "sulphur/brimstone<2303>".
so brimstone is a Greek pun for supernatural divine fire?

fire from heaven
Luke 17:29=revelation 20:9
?

cp. proverbs 3:18
wisdom is the tree of life?
knowledge sacrifices wisdom??
It would appear so.

I will post more on some of those words used in the "Lake of Fire" verses in next post........am eating lunch.........

Eventually,I am going to be using both OT and NT passages.............



.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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3 of the verses of the phrase "Lake of Fire" contain the word "sulphur/brimstone<2303>".

2303. theion probably neuter of 2304
(in its original sense of flashing); sulphur:--brimstone.
The equivalent Hebrew word for brimstone/sulphur is H1614.

1614 gophriyth gof-reeth' probably feminine of 1613;
properly, cypress- resin; by analogy, sulphur (as equally inflammable):--brimstone.
1613 gopher go'-fer from an unused root,
probably meaning to house in; a kind of tree or wood (as used for building), apparently the cypress:-- gopher.

Strong's Hebrew: 1614. גָּפְרִית (gophrith) -- brimstone

1614. gophrith

Strong's Hebrew 1614
7 Occurrences


gā·p̄ə·rîṯ — 4 Occ.
lə·ḡā·p̄ə·rîṯ — 1 Occ.
wə·ḡā·p̄ə·rîṯ — 2 Occ.

It is used in 7 verses
Englishman's Concordance
Genesis 19:24
HEB: וְעַל־ עֲמֹרָ֖ה גָּפְרִ֣ית וָאֵ֑שׁ מֵאֵ֥ת
NAS: and Gomorrah brimstone and fire
KJV: and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire
INT: and and Gomorrah brimstone and fire the LORD
Deuteronomy 29:23
HEB: גָּפְרִ֣ית וָמֶלַח֮ שְׂרֵפָ֣ה
NAS: its land is brimstone and salt,
KJV: [And that] the whole land thereof [is] brimstone, and salt,
INT: is brimstone and salt A burning
Job 18:15
HEB: עַל־ נָוֵ֣הוּ גָפְרִֽית׃
NAS: nothing of his; Brimstone is scattered
KJV: because [it is] none of his: brimstone shall be scattered
INT: on his habitation of his Brimstone
Psalm 11:6
HEB: פַּ֫חִ֥ים אֵ֣שׁ וְ֭גָפְרִית וְר֥וּחַ זִלְעָפ֗וֹת
NAS: Fire and brimstone and burning
KJV: fire and brimstone, and an horrible
INT: snares Fire and brimstone wind and burning
Isaiah 30:33
HEB: יְהוָה֙ כְּנַ֣חַל גָּפְרִ֔ית בֹּעֲרָ֖ה בָּֽהּ׃
NAS: like a torrent of brimstone, sets it afire.
KJV: like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle
INT: of the LORD A torrent of brimstone sets
Isaiah 34:9
HEB: לְזֶ֔פֶת וַעֲפָרָ֖הּ לְגָפְרִ֑ית וְהָיְתָ֣ה אַרְצָ֔הּ
NAS: And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land
KJV: and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land
INT: pitch loose brimstone will become land
Ezekiel 38:22
HEB: אֶלְגָּבִ֜ישׁ אֵ֣שׁ וְגָפְרִ֗ית אַמְטִ֤יר עָלָיו֙
NAS: with hailstones, fire and brimstone.
KJV: fire, and brimstone.
INT: great hail fire and brimstone will rain and
"Fire brimstone" occur together in 11 verses

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
fire brimstone occurs in 11 verses

4 verses in OT:

Genesis 19:24 [Luke 17:29]
Then Yahweh rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah,
from Yahweh from the heavens.

Psalms 11:6
Upon the wicked He will rain coals;
Fire and brimstone and a burning wind
Shall be the portion of their cup.

Isaiah 30:33
For Tophet was established of old, Yes, for the king it is prepared.
He has made it deep and large; Its pyre is fire with much wood;
The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone,Kindles it.

Ezekiel 38:22
“And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


7 verses in NT. Only 1 verse outside of Revelation

Luke 17:29 [Genesis 19:24]“but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

6 verses Revelation [3 of those concerning the LoF]

Revelation 9:
17...... and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

Revelation 14:10
“he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.


Some facts about sulfur/brimstone:

Fire and brimstone - Wikipedia
Fire and brimstone (or, alternatively, brimstone and fire)
is an idiomatic expression of referring to God's wrath in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the New Testament. In the Bible, it often appears in reference to the fate of the unfaithful. Brimstone, an archaic term synonymous with sulfur,[1] evokes the acrid odor of sulphur dioxide given off by lightning strikes.[2] Lightning was understood as divine punishment by many ancient religions; the association of sulphur with God's retribution is common in the Bible. The English phrase "fire and brimstone" originates in the King James Bible....................
Brimstone was not only associated with the wrath of God or judgment but it was also used as a purifying agent. The Greek Orthodox would burn brimstone to ward off evil and disease.[citation needed] This is why God's breath is compared to brimstone and why brimstone is often used in carrying out divine judgment. That is, the brimstone is used to purify the land from evil.

According to Jewish historian, Josephus, "Now this country is then so sadly burnt up, that nobody cares to come at it;... It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that divine fire; and the traces (or shadows) of the five cities are still to be seen,..." (The Jewish War, book IV, end of ch. 8, in reference to Sodom.)...........................
What is brimstone? (as in fire and brimstone)
Brimstone (man now calls it "sulfur/sulphur")
is a lemon-yellow colored stone. Brimstone means, "burning stone" or, "the stone that burns." At left is a picture of brimstones and powdered brimstone. When a plain brimstone (like those to the left) is exposed to the air, nothing happens--but if a match is put to it, it will burn in a peculiar way, like a liquid fire, and it emits noxious fumes. The stone melts like wax but the dripping is a peculiar thick fire, like a piece of wax on fire. As it burns, it has a rich, fluorescent-type deep colbalt bluish color (see below right). It is an interesting, sticky, "acidy"-type burning fire. The little drops burn for some time. Ancient peoples sometimes used brimstone as a type of match......................
Brimstone/sulfur has many commercial/industrial applications. It is often converted to sulfuric acid which is so widely used that it is known as the "king of chemicals." Brimstone/sulfur is used for things such as fertilizer, car batteries, chemical/petroleum refining, paper, rayon, film, automobile tires, paint, detergents, explosives, matches, food processing (sulfur dioxide in food preservation can be harmful), drugs, and dyes. It is said that sulfur is used at some stage of almost everything we eat, wear, or use. It is used to bleach fabrics. Too much sulfur dioxide in the air can kill people when they breathe it in--it causes choking and suffocation. It causes the throat and breathing passages to become irritated and closed up...............

Sulfur - Wikipedia
Sulfur
or sulphur
is the tenth most common element by mass in the universe, and the fifth most common on Earth. Though sometimes found in pure, native form, sulfur on Earth usually occurs as sulfide and sulfate minerals. Being abundant in native form, sulfur was known in ancient times, being mentioned for its uses in ancient India, ancient Greece, China, and Egypt. In the Bible, sulfur is called brimstone.[4]

Being abundantly available in native form, sulfur was known in ancient times and is referred to in the Torah (Genesis). English translations of the Bible commonly referred to burning sulfur as "brimstone", giving rise to the term "fire-and-brimstone" sermons, in which listeners are reminded of the fate of eternal damnation that await the unbelieving and unrepentant. It is from this part of the Bible that Hell is implied to "smell of sulfur" (likely due to its association with volcanic activity). According to the Ebers Papyrus, a sulfur ointment was used in ancient Egypt to treat granular eyelids.........

That concludes the study of "sulfur/brimstone in the Bible............

We will be coming to Mystery Babylon/Harlot/Queen soon.........

.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Well since we know many Prophets have been killed outside of Jerusalem, we have to think to ourselves, why would Jesus say this !! Well of course he was being "SARCASTIC" implying that he didn't want to rob Jerusalem of what seemed to be her duty/fate with most prophets. (killing them).

Elliot's Commentary reads like this:

It cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.—The word used here for “it cannot be,” occurs in this passage only of the New Testament, and has a peculiar half-ironical force—“It is not meet, it would be at variance with the fitness of things, it is morally impossible.” Jerusalem had made the slaughter of the prophets a special prerogative, a monopoly, as has been said, of which none might rob her.

Jesus was being ironic in his speech, or sarcastic.

The Jews stoned Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah in Egypt, because he rebuked them for worshipping idols; and the Egyptians buried him by the side of Pharaoh's palace. The Egyptians loved him much, because he prayed and the beasts died which used to come up from the river Nile and devour men. These beasts were called 'crocodiles.' When Alexander the son of Philip, the Macedonian, came (to Egypt), he made enquiries about his grave, and took and brought him to Alexandria. This (prophet) during his life said to the Egyptians, 'a child shall be born--that is the Messiah--of a virgin, and He shall be laid in a crib2, and He will shake and cast down the idols.' From that time, and until Christ was born, the Egyptians used to set a virgin and a baby in a crib, and to worship him, because of what Jeremiah said to them, that He should be born in a crib.

Jeremiah/Place of death Egypt


Ezekiel the son of Buzi was of the priestly tribe, and from the land of Serîdâ3. The chief of the Jews who was in the land of the Chaldeans slew him, because he rebuked him for worshipping idols. He was buried in the grave of Arphaxar, the son of Shem, the son of Noah.

Ezekiel/Place of death Babylon.

They came to Jesus, basically mocking him that Herod was coming to kill him, and Jesus knowig their hearts basically let it be known, these are not Herod's doings, but rather your doings, you in Jerusalem have been killing the Prophets for eons, that is where I will no doubt die. But as we can see, every Prophet did not die in Jerusalem.

Ok, I can see that however He did say this...
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

It may be safe that in both places He was referring to the people and not the physical place. This does not change my original thoughts.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Ok, I can see that however He did say this...
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

It may be safe that in both places He was referring to the people and not the physical place. This does not change my original thoughts.
I would think that is likely.......

Were you and/or others aware that there appears to be 2 different greek words for "Jerusalem" in the NT?

G2419 (KJV)

2419. Hierousalem
of Hebrew origin (3389); Hierusalem (i.e. Jerushalem), the capitol of Palestine:--Jerusalem. Compare 2414.
G2419 matches the Greek (Ierousalēm), which occurs 83 times in 80 verses

TR — 83x in 3 unique form(s)
Ἰερουσαλὴμ — 40x
Ἰερουσαλήμ — 41x
Ἱερουσάλημ — 2x


This one is really interesting.

It is used just 1 each in Matthew and Mark, [none in John]
the rest in Luke, Acts, Epistles and Revelation

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, G2419 Jerusalem, G2419 thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mark 11:1
And when they came nigh to Jerusalem, G2419 unto Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives, he sendeth forth two of his disciples,

Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, G2419 Jerusalem, G2419 which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luke 21:20
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem G2419 compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem G2419 shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke 23:28
But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, G2419 weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


It is mentioned 3 times in Revelation

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, G2419 which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, G2419 coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, G2419 descending out of heaven from God,

This other word for "Jerusalem"

G2414 (KJV)

2414. Hierosoluma
of Hebrew origin (3389); Hierosolyma (i.e. Jerushalaim}, the capitol of Palestine:--Jerusalem. Compare 2419.
G2414 matches the Greek (Hierosolyma), which occurs 59 times in 59 verses

TR — 59x in 4 unique form(s)
Ἰεροσόλυμα — 2x

Ἱεροσόλυμα — 32x

Ἱεροσολύμοις — 14x

Ἱεροσολύμων — 11x


1st time used:

Matthew 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, G2414


Last time used in Gospels

John 12:12
On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, G2414


Last times used in NT. It is used in only 3 verses outside of the Gospels and Book of Acts, all in Galatians:

Galatians 1:17
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem G2414 to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem G2414 to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:1
Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem G2414 with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.




.
 
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Revealing Times

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Ok, I can see that however He did say this...
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

It may be safe that in both places He was referring to the people and not the physical place. This does not change my original thoughts.
Yes ma'am, one verse latter, that was a part of his ironic utterance to the Pharisees, he was telling them he would die in Jerusalem in two days, then he says to the Jews I would have gathered you together [as "one" under God) and ye would not. Then in verse 35 he tells them your house is left desolate, and you shall not see me again until you [Jews] shall utter "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" (Jesus at the Second Coming the Jews will call him Blessed who comes in the name of God).

If the Jews had accepted Christ Jesus there would have been no Gentile Church Age, but alas God knew they wouldn't, hence the Prophecies. That is why we have a 2000 year gap in the 70th week.

Jesus is only saying in verse 34 that he would have rescued them from their coming 70 AD destruction, if they had of repented and turned back unto God.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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If the Jews had accepted Christ Jesus there would have been no Gentile Church Age, but alas God knew they wouldn't, hence the Prophecies. That is why we have a 2000 year gap in the 70th week.

I believe God always intended the Gentiles to be in the fold from the beginning. Israel is made up of many nations. He chose these peculiar people to reveal Himself. God in the flesh could be made manifest through the most righteous of many nations. There is no Gentile Church Age as God's promise is for all who believe in Him. Even if every Jew accepted Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Jesus Himself said He had more to bring into the fold furthermore, everyone of those regenerated Jews would know that the "good news" is about the Kingdom of God for all nations.

Genesis 17
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
 
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Erik Nelson

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The equivalent Hebrew word for brimstone/sulphur is H1614.

1614 gophriyth gof-reeth' probably feminine of 1613;
properly, cypress- resin; by analogy, sulphur (as equally inflammable):--brimstone.
1613 gopher go'-fer from an unused root,
probably meaning to house in; a kind of tree or wood (as used for building), apparently the cypress:-- gopher.

Strong's Hebrew: 1614. גָּפְרִית (gophrith) -- brimstone

1614. gophrith

Strong's Hebrew 1614
7 Occurrences


gā·p̄ə·rîṯ — 4 Occ.
lə·ḡā·p̄ə·rîṯ — 1 Occ.
wə·ḡā·p̄ə·rîṯ — 2 Occ.

It is used in 7 verses

"Fire brimstone" occur together in 11 verses

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
fire brimstone occurs in 11 verses

4 verses in OT:

Genesis 19:24 [Luke 17:29]
Then Yahweh rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah,
from Yahweh from the heavens.

Psalms 11:6
Upon the wicked He will rain coals;
Fire and brimstone and a burning wind
Shall be the portion of their cup.

Isaiah 30:33
For Tophet was established of old, Yes, for the king it is prepared.
He has made it deep and large; Its pyre is fire with much wood;
The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone,Kindles it.

Ezekiel 38:22
“And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


7 verses in NT. Only 1 verse outside of Revelation

Luke 17:29 [Genesis 19:24]“but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

6 verses Revelation [3 of those concerning the LoF]

Revelation 9:
17...... and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

Revelation 14:10
“he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.


Some facts about sulfur/brimstone:

Fire and brimstone - Wikipedia
Fire and brimstone (or, alternatively, brimstone and fire)
is an idiomatic expression of referring to God's wrath in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the New Testament. In the Bible, it often appears in reference to the fate of the unfaithful. Brimstone, an archaic term synonymous with sulfur,[1] evokes the acrid odor of sulphur dioxide given off by lightning strikes.[2] Lightning was understood as divine punishment by many ancient religions; the association of sulphur with God's retribution is common in the Bible. The English phrase "fire and brimstone" originates in the King James Bible....................
Brimstone was not only associated with the wrath of God or judgment but it was also used as a purifying agent. The Greek Orthodox would burn brimstone to ward off evil and disease.[citation needed] This is why God's breath is compared to brimstone and why brimstone is often used in carrying out divine judgment. That is, the brimstone is used to purify the land from evil.

According to Jewish historian, Josephus, "Now this country is then so sadly burnt up, that nobody cares to come at it;... It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that divine fire; and the traces (or shadows) of the five cities are still to be seen,..." (The Jewish War, book IV, end of ch. 8, in reference to Sodom.)...........................


That concludes the study of "sulfur/brimstone in the Bible............

We will be coming to Mystery Babylon/Harlot/Queen soon.........

.
maybe you could capture the sense of the Hebrew word for brimstone as "tinder stone", coming as it does from a root implying flammability?
 
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Revealing Times

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I believe God always intended the Gentiles to be in the fold from the beginning. Israel is made up of many nations. He chose these peculiar people to reveal Himself. God in the flesh could be made manifest through the most righteous of many nations. There is no Gentile Church Age as God's promise is for all who believe in Him. Even if every Jew accepted Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Jesus Himself said He had more to bring into the fold furthermore, everyone of those regenerated Jews would know that the "good news" is about the Kingdom of God for all nations.

Genesis 17
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
"Intended" and "KNOWING" the future are two different things sister. God knew what their choices would be, thus His Holy Word shows the future to be X (Church Age), but His plans show he gave Israel a chance to go another way, Jesus even stated it as such, I would have gathered you unto me but you would not.

All we have to do to see God's original plans is to look at the Statue of Daniel, he shows a Head of Gold (Babylon) followed by a Breast/Chest of Silver (Persia) followed by the Thighs of Bronze (Greece), followed by the Legs of Iron (Rome) and finally followed by TEN TOES of Iron and Clay mix which of course we know as the Little Horn/Anti-Christ.

The Church via the Church Age delivered a Mortal Wound to the Beast System which could not overcome the Church (Jesus told Peter the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church). Rome, the Fourth Beast was converted from a Beast to a "Conveyor of the Gospel" over time with the largest ever Christian Church being headquartered there, those who sling arrows at the RCC disregard their place is Church history, sure, they went astray by mixing politics with the Church but so did the Church of England who persecuted people also, anything Government gets involved with becomes perverted, which is why the Pilgrims left for America. When the Church is Raptured the Beast System will start back up when the Little Horn/Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to again become THE BEAST, the Mortal Wound is healed.

In essence, the 70 AD event could have been the Zechariah 14 event, but Israel never accepted Christ, thus the 70th week judgment was not allowed to come forth, Israel has to repent during the 70th week, and they were not ready to repent. God knowing this and acting accordingly doesn't mean Israel did not have the chance to bring this to pass, it just means they missed their calling so to speak. I understand God knew what was going to happen. I am just pointing out God designed a "BUILDING" and then he waited 2000 years to finish it.

Take away the Church Age and the Statue fits perfectly, the Legs of Iron and the 10 Toes. Also the Fourth Beast AND the coming Little Horn would fit perfectly as well a the 70th week. The point is, Israel NEVER REPENTED !! But they will shoerly accept Jesus as their Messiah, just after the Rapture and before the coming Day of the Lord.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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"Intended" and "KNOWING" the future are two different things sister. God knew what their choices would be, thus His Holy Word shows the future tho be X (Church Age), but His plans show he gave Israel a chance to go another way, Jesus even stated it as such, I would have gathered you unto me but you would not.

All we have to do to see God's original plans is to look at the Statue of Daniel, he shows a Head of Gold (Babylon) followed by a Breast/Chest of Silver (Persia) followed by the Thighs of Bronze (Greece), followed by the Legs of Iron (Rome) and finally followed by TEN TOES of Iron and Clay mix which of course we know as the Little Horn/Anti-Christ.

The Church via the Church Age delivered a Mortal Wound to the Beast System which could not overcome the Church (Jesus told Peter the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church). Rome, the Fourth Beast was converted from a Beast to a "Conveyor of the Gospel" over time with the largest ever Christian Church being headquartered there, those who sling arrows at the RCC disregard their place is Church history, sure, they went astray by mixing politics with the Church but so did the Church of England who persecuted people also, anything Government gets involved with becomes perverted, which is why the Pilgrims left for America. When the Church is Raptured the Beast System will start back up when the Little Horn/Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to again become THE BEAST, the Mortal Wound is healed.

In essence, the 70 AD event could have been the Zechariah 14 event, but Israel never accepted Christ, thus the 70th week judgment was not allowed to come forth, Israel has to repent during the 70th week, and they were not ready to repent. God knowing this and acting accordingly doesn't mean Israel did not have the chance to bring thi to pass, to just means they missed their calling so to speak. I understand God knew what was going to happen. I am just pointing out God designed a "BUILDING" and then he waited 2000 years to finish it.

Take away the Church Age and the Statue fits perfectly,The Legs of Iron and the 10 Toes. Also the Four Beast AND the coming Little Horn would fit perfectly as well a the 70th week. The point is, Israel NEVER REPENTED !!

We will not see eye to eye on the subject of eschatology. I am a partial preterist and view Revelation as mostly speaking to the Christians at that time. Much to do with their situation and not a future date. Pretty much says it in the first sentence of Revelation.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

I have to take this into consideration before I believe dispensation theology is the only way to interpret eschatology.

Blessings.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Revelation 19:20
Living were cast<906>, the two, into the Lake of the Fire the one burning<2545> in sulphur <2303>
Revelation 21:8
the part of them in the Lake, the one burning<2545> Fire<4442> and sulphur<2306>, which is being the Death, the second-one.
Now onto the Great City and verses in the NT and OT relating to the "burning" of Her....

The Greek word used for "burning", G4451, concerning the great City/Queen/Harlot in Revelation is rather unique, and used in only 3 verses.

It comes from the root word G4442, [as mentioned in post #20]
FIRE Post #20 G4442

4451.
purosis from 4448
ignition, i.e. (specially), smelting (figuratively, conflagration, calamity as a test):--burning, trial.
burning: Revelation 18:9, 18 that test ; the burning by which metals are roasted or reduced; by a figure drawn from the refiner's fire (on which cf. Proverbs 27:21), calamities or trials character: 1 Peter 4:12

Matches the Greek πύρωσις (pyrōsis) occurs 3 times in 3 verses

Revelation 18:
9 The kings of the land, who committed sexual immorality and lived wantonly with her, will weep and wail over Her, when they look at the smoke of the firing<4451> of Her
18 and were crying, seeing the smoke of the firing<4451>of Her saying,
"What City is like to the great City"?

Used in 1 other verse of the NT:

1 Peter 4:12
Beloved, think it not strange<3579> at the firery<4451> toward trial<3986> to ye becoming
as if a strange-thing<3581> to ye befalling,

Strong's Greek: 4451. πύρωσις (purósis) -- a burning, hence a refining

Transliteration: purósis
Phonetic Spelling: (poo'-ro-sis)
Definition: a burning, a refining
Usage: a burning, trial, fiery test.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4451: πύρωσις

πύρωσις, πυρώσεως, ἡ (πυρόω), a burning: Revelation 18:9, 18; the burning by which metals are roasted or reduced; by a figure drawn from the refiner's fire (on which cf. Proverbs 27:21), calamities or trials that test character: 1 Peter 4:12 (Tertullian adv. Gnost. 12 ne expavescatis ustionem, quae agitur in vobis in tentationem), cf. 1 Peter 1:7 ((ἡ πύρωσις τῆς δοκιμασίας, 'Teaching etc. 16, 5 [ET])). (In the same and other senses by Aristotle, Theophrastus, Plutarch, others.)


(Tertullian adv. Gnost. 12 ne expavescatis ustionem, quae agitur in vobis in tentationem), cf. 1 Peter 1:7 ((ἡ πύρωσις τῆς δοκιμασίας, 'Teaching etc. 16, 5 [ET])). (In the same and other senses by Aristotle, Theophrastus, Plutarch, others.)

Strong's Greek Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com


To be continued............

.
 
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Revealing Times

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We will not see eye to eye on the subject of eschatology. I am a partial preterist and view Revelation as mostly speaking to the Christians at that time. Much to do with their situation and not a future date. Pretty much says it in the first sentence of Revelation.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

I have to take this into consideration before I believe dispensation theology is the only way to interpret eschatology.

Blessings.

Which only proves one must study diligently to understand things, because Satan is always trying to decieve us at every turn. I am going to prove via the scriptures that what you assume is incorrect, and I imagine I will still get a BUT, BUT, BUT by pretrist and partial-pretrist. Nevertheless, I will always share truth that enlightens people.

100 percent Proof that Jesus never stated he was coming back shortly.

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Now the original 1611 KJV with NUMBERS in the back of every word to show us the ROOT WORDS.

Rev. 1:1 ¶ The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn,

Don't worry about the spelling, it's the original type of the Old English, the point is THE NUMBERS behind each word, NOTICE that SHORTLY has two numbers, not one number behind it !! This is very important to understanding what this verse means. Let's look at the Root words meaning.

1722 is the Greek word EN and it means a FIXED POSITION IN TIME basically.

Via Strong's
#1722 ἐν en {en}

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state),
and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
G1519 and G1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5034 the Greek word TACHOS meaning IN HASTE, QUICKNESS/SPEED.

#5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os} from the same as G5036; TDNT - n/a; n n
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So, why is there two root words behind SHORTLY ? Because there was a DIFFERENT MEANING then what the English translated, it means no such thing as is translated, Jesus never stated he would return SHORTLY, but this below is what Jesus said via the very words that are in the ORIGINAL Greek !!

At a FIXED MOMENT IN TIME (Remember, only the Father knows when Jesus will return, Jesus told us he doesn't even know when he will be sent back). Starting again..............

At a FIXED MOMENT IN TIME (1722 EN) Jesus will return IN HASTE/SPEEDILY, which fits with 1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We have to go deeper in our research, we can't take it for granted the translators got everything right, we have computers and the ability to dig these truths out.

Jesus, at a fixed point in time, when the Father sends him, will come QUICKLY, IN HASTE. (In the future, when the Father tells him to return.) It's very dangerous to allow one verse to dictate our paths at any point in time.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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5034 the Greek word TACHOS meaning IN HASTE, QUICKNESS/SPEED.

#5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os} from the same as G5036; TDNT - n/a; n n
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
Yes indeed and correctomundo!
But I would think that not everyone studies the Greek in depth as you and I.......else they would be Preterists like me :oldthumbsup: :ebil: :pray:


1722. en a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state),
5034. tachos from the same as 5036; a brief space (of time), i.e. (with 1722 prefixed) in haste:--+ quickly, + shortly, + speedily.

Strong's Number G5034 matches the Greek τάχος (tachos),
which occurs 7 times in 7 verses
Luke 18:8 , Acts 12:7, Act 22:18, Acts 25:4, Romans 16:20, and Revelation 1:1 and Revelation 22:6

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

Luke 18
7 The yet God not no should be doing<4160> the avenging<1557> of His Chosen-ones<1588>, of the ones ones imploring>994> to Him day and night and is being patient on them
8 I am saying to ye, that He shall be doing<4160> the avenging to them In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
moreover, the Son of Man coming consequently shall be finding the faith upon the earth ’
Revelation 6:10
and they were crying with a great voice saying,
'how long! O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge
and take vengeance/avenge<1556> of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'
Revelation 19:2
because true and just/righteous<1342> are His judgments,
because He did judge the great harlot who did corrupt the land in Her whoredom,
and He did avenge<1556> the blood of His bond-servants at Her Hand;
Act 12:7 - and lo, a messenger of the Lord stood by, and a light shone in the buildings, and having smitten Peter on the side, he raised him up, saying, 'Rise in swiftness,' and his chains fell from off his hands.

Romans 16:20
The yet God of the Peace shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of ye In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
The grace of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with ye.

Revelation 1:1
An-un-covering/veiling<602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him,
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets,
commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servants of Him
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.


http://mikeblume.com/symbrev.htm
One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.



.
 
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claninja

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Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Now the original 1611 KJV with NUMBERS in the back of every word to show us the ROOT WORDS.

Rev. 1:1 ¶ The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn,

Don't worry about the spelling, it's the original type of the Old English, the point is THE NUMBERS behind each word, NOTICE that SHORTLY has two numbers, not one number behind it !! This is very important to understanding what this verse means. Lets look at the Root Words meanings.

1722 is the Greek word EN and it means a FIXED POSITION IN TIME basically.

Via Strong's
#1722 ἐν en {en}

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state),
and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
G1519 and G1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

As a preterist, I would say you have a good argument here. The greek word for "in" specifies not that the events of the revelation will occur soon or shortly in regards to nearness of time, but that the events themselves occur quickly in regards to speed from the start to completion.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things to take place in quickness.

However, we also have verse 3 to consider: "the time is near".
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

So what we have here is that the events of revelation are near in time and when they occur, they will occur quickly.

1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So, why is there two root words behind SHORTLY ? Because there was a DIFFERENT MEANING then what the English translated, it means no such thing as is translated, Jesus never stated he would return SHORTLY, but this is what Jesus said via the very words that are in the ORIGINAL Greek !!

When IN is used with quickness, quickness is typically a noun

You argument of "in" being a fixed point also agrees here:
Luke 18:8 I tell you, he will give justice to them IN QUICKNESS. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will IN QUICKNESS crush Satan under your feet

How about here, was Paul's hope that he was going to come to them soon or that when he started to come to them he would travel very fast?
1 Timothy 3:14-15 I hope to come to you IN QUICKNESS, but I am writing these things to you so that, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

however, When Jesus states "I am coming quickly", quickly is an adverb and there is no greek work for "in"

Let's look at strongs definition with regards to the adverb of quickly:

Neuter singular of tachus (as adverb); shortly, i.e. Without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily -- lightly, quickly.

At a FIXED MOMENT IN TIME (Remember, only the Father knows when Jesus will return, Jesus told us he doesn't even know when he will be sent back). Starting again..............

At a FIXED MOMENT IN TIME (1722 EN) Jesus will return IN HASTE/SPEEDILY, which fits with 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

We have to go deeper in our research, we can't take it for granted the translators got everything right, w have computers and the ability to dig these truths out.

Jesus, at a fixed point in time, when the Father sends him, will come QUICKLY, IN HASTE.

When Jesus states he is coming quickly, there is no greek word for "in". Your argument for a fixed point in time does not work in this case.

Revelation 22:7 And behold, I am coming QUICKLY. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.
Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming QUICKLY, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

What would help your case is if the verb tenses of am coming were future instead of present. If Jesus stated "I will be coming quickly" or "I am going to be coming quickly", then your argument would have a little more support.

james places the coming of the Lord as near

James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord has drawn near.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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As a preterist, I would say you have a good argument here. The greek word for "in" specifies not that the events of the revelation will occur soon or shortly in regards to nearness of time, but that the events themselves occur quickly in regards to speed from the start to completion.

However, we also have verse 3 to consider: "the time is near".
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
james places the coming of the Lord as near
James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord has drawn near.
Excellent post and good catch.
Nigh/near also occurs 2 times in Revelation

LUKE 21 MATTHEW 24 OLIVET DISCOURSE CONTROVERSY [Poll Thread]
The time is nigh


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
for the Time is nigh/egguV <1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
For the Time Is-nigh/egguV <1451>


I am reminded of this verse when Joseph is called on to interpret some dreams Pharaoh was having
and I notice a lot of events in Revelation are repeated twice, but in different ways.......
Genesis 41:32
"And-on to be repeated/doubled<08138> of the dream unto Pharaoh twice<06471>,
that being established the matter from-with the Elohim,

and making haste<04116> the Elohim to do of it."
Luke 21:
8 - And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near<1448> go ye not therefore after them.
20 - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh<1448>.
28 - And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.<1448>
Romans 13:12
the night did advance, and the day came nigh<1448>;
let us lay aside, therefore, the works of the darkness, and let us put on the armour of the light;


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
for the Time is nigh/egguV <1451>.

.
"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohihm, To comfort all mourners.
Luke 4:21
and He began by saying,
Today this Scripture/Writing<1124> is fulfilled<4137> in your hearing.”

In Luke 21:24 uses the same exact form of the word #1125 that is used in Revelation 1:3

Luke 21:22
22 That days of vengeance/ekdikhsewV <1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), .

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy,
and keepings in it having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
for the time/season is nigh/egguV <1451>.


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Now onto the Great City and verses in the NT and OT relating to the "burning" of Her....
The Greek word used for "burning", G4451, concerning the great City/Queen/Harlot in Revelation is rather unique, and used in only 3 verses.
4451. purosis from 4448
ignition, i.e. (specially), smelting (figuratively, conflagration, calamity as a test):--burning, trial.
burning: Revelation 18:9, 18 that test ; the burning by which metals are roasted or reduced; by a figure drawn from the refiner's fire (on which cf. Proverbs 27:21), calamities or trials character: 1 Peter 4:12
To be continued............
.
Last post we looked at the Greek word #G4451:
4451. purosis poo'-ro-sis from 4448; ignition, i.e. (specially), smelting (figuratively, conflagration, calamity as a test):--burning, trial.

Revelation 18:
9 ...when they look at the smoke of the firing<4451> of Her
18 and were crying, seeing the smoke of the firing<4451>of Her saying....
1 Peter 4:12
Beloved, think it not strange<3579> at the firery<4451> toward trial<3986> to ye becoming.....


Here is the word that G4451 is derived from:

Strong's Greek: 4448. πυρόω (puroó) -- to set on fire, i.e. to burn (pass.)
4448.
puroo from 4442; to kindle, to kindle, i.e. (passively) to be ignited, glow (literally), be refined (by implication), or (figuratively) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust):--burn, fiery, be on fire, try.
G4448 πυρόω (pyroō), occurs 6 times in 6 verses
πυρόω: passive, present πυροῦμαι; perfect participle πεπυρωμένος; (πῦρ); from Aeschylus and Pindar down; to burn with fire, to set on fire, to kindle; in the N. T. it is used only in the passive:
a. to be on fire, to burn: properly, 2 Peter 3:12; tropically, of the heat of the passions: of grief, 2 Corinthians 11:29 (English Versions burn (often understood of indignation, but cf. Meyer); Winer's Grammar, 153 (145)); of anger, with τοῖς θυμοῖς added, equivalent to to be incensed, indignant, 2 Macc. 4:38 2Macc. 10:35 2Macc. 14:45; to be inflamed with sexual desire, 1 Corinthians 7:9.
b. perfect participle πεπυρωμένος, made to glow (R. V. refined): Revelation 1:15 ((cf. Buttmann, 80 (69) n.)); full of fire; fiery, ignited: τά βέλη ... τά πεπυρωμένα darts filled with inflammable substances and set on fire, Ephesians 6:16 (Apollod. Bib. 2, 5, 2 § 3); melted by fire and purged of dross: χρυσίον πεπυρωμένον ἐκ πυρός, (refined by fire), Revelation 3:18 (so πυρόω in the Sept. for צָרַף; as τό ἀγρυριον, Job 22:25; Zechariah 13:9; Psalm 11:7
It occurs in 6 verses of the NT.
4 verses in the Epistles and 2 in Revelation

I put strong's #s with some of the words in case some may want to, not only look at the meaning of them, but also where they are used in other places in the NT.
I particularly like this Lexicon/Concordance, but others may have a different preference.


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

1 Corinthians 7:9
and if they have not restraint<1467> -- let them marry,
for it is better to marry than to be lustfully-inflamed<4448>;
2 Corinthians 11:29
Who is feeble<770>, and I am not being feeble? who is being snared<4624>, and not I am being inflamed<4448>;

Ephesians 6:16
In all, taken up the shield<2375> of the faith,
in which ye shall be being able all the fiery<4448> darts<956> of the evil one to quench<4570>,

Peter uses it in this verse concerning the "parousia" of the day of God"[Revelation 16:14].
I show the different forms of #3952 at this link:

Where is the Parousia of Matt 24 showing in Revelation?

2 Peter 3:12
Toward-hoping/awaiting<4328> and hastening<4692> of the parousian<3952> of the day of the God,
by which heavens, being being kindled<4448>, shall be being dissolved<3089>, and elements<4747> burning-heat<2741> is being melted<5080>
Revelation 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; --
Revelation 1:15
and His feet like to fine-brass/white-bronze<5474>, as in a furnace<2575> having been fired<4448>,
and His voice as a sound of many waters<5204>,

Revelation 3:18
I counsel-together<4823> thee to buy from Me gold, having been fired/refined<4448> out of fire<4442>, that thou should be being rich,
And white garments<2440> that thou should be being arrayed<4016>, and not may be being manifest<5319> the shame<152> of the nakedness<1132> of thee,
And eye-salve<2854> to anoint the eyes of thee, that thou may be seeing.

To be continued
 
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