Non God believers

sunshine100 said:

This post is a topic I have been thinking about,when my brother was still alive,he didn't believe in God,and his girlfriend does not believe in God either,I wanted to know what your take on this was,my brother was the most caring person you would have ever met,he would have done anything for anyone,where do you think the non believers go?Can they still go to heaven?

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Did your brother ever hear about Christ presented by qualified people?

sunshine100 said:

what's that?

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Sometimes people misrepresent Christ. If this happened in his case, maybe he wasn't an unbeliever, just a skeptic about the version of Christ he was exposed to.

sunshine100 said:

This post is a topic I have been thinking about,when my brother was still alive,he didn't believe in God,and his girlfriend does not believe in God either,I wanted to know what your take on this was,my brother was the most caring person you would have ever met,he would have done anything for anyone,where do you think the non believers go?Can they still go to heaven?

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I believe they are forgiven and get another chance to return to Him......

As Christians, we are guided by the Bible. It speaks in some parts about the universality of people of good will but it also is very emphatic that salvation is through acceptance of Christ as ones Lord and Savior.

We do not know all that God will do and has in mind, but if the question is asked, we are not able to say that non-believers will be saved.

sunshine100 said:

This post is a topic I have been thinking about,when my brother was still alive,he didn't believe in God,and his girlfriend does not believe in God either,I wanted to know what your take on this was,my brother was the most caring person you would have ever met,he would have done anything for anyone,where do you think the non believers go?Can they still go to heaven?

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This is a difficult one. However, one does not really know what occurred in the last moments of ones earthly life. An example was the thief on the cross.

So don't dwell on it ... God is loving and God is just. Your brother may or may not be saved ... but there is no way of you knowing for sure. There is nothing wrong with believing that he was.

If one does not believe in God ... how can they be saved? No they can not. If one does not believe in God then they believe in something else and that is their God(s). Again, a person being saved could very well happen in the very last moments of their earthly life.

Deuteronomy 32:39

'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

It's in Gods Hands.

May God give you peace in this matter.

God Bless you.

Albion said:

As Christians, we are guided by the Bible. It speaks in some parts about the universality of people of good will but it also is very emphatic that salvation is through acceptance of Christ as ones Lord and Savior.

We do not know all that God will do and has in mind, but if the question is asked, we are not able to say that non-believers will be saved.

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The only ones that are saved are the non-believers......if you are a believer, you are already saved....

Man looks on the outer appearance, but God judges the heart. He knows why people do what they do, and will judge accordingly. There is no better person than the Lord to judge us, not even ourselves.

sunshine100 said:

I think that he wanted to believe in God and he believed in God in his heart.

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None of us can give an answer about your brother destiny with 100% certanty.
All we can do is talk about what the bible teaches is needed for salvation and that is belief in and aceptance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

RaymondG said:

The only ones that are saved are the non-believers......if you are a believer, you are already saved....

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I don't think that is what Abion was saying. He was talking about those people who have died and reject God's grace but are a good person. That is the subject and we can't say with assurance that the Bible says good works and being kind hearted, even though you reject God and his free gift of salvation, is enough.

Many view on whether your brother is with the Lord.

Jesus talked about hell more than all other authors in the Bible combined. He pleaded with people to consider the evidence and to follow and trust him.

Catholics and a small number of Protestants believe in a purgatory. That is a waiting place where people get a chance to do penance and learn new things about God and transform their character and ultimately go to heaven. This would be the most hopeful.

There is the view of universal salvation but it has some real problems from a scriptural standpoint.

There is the view that people who die having rejected God's free gift will suffer eternal conscious regret (torment) being separated from God forever.

There is the view that God will annihilate people that rejected him at the judgement so they will not suffer eternally.

Let's hope the Purgation view is right. Unfortunately the scriptures don't lend much support. But some extra-Biblical writings do, and some Early Church Fathers held this view. And it is the teaching of Catholicism.

I'm sorry for your loss.

This is one of those questions Christians, regrettably, shy away from. Scripturally speaking, and I know this may be a painful reality to accept, God is very clear...

“Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” John 14:6

“8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

Hello and welcome to CF.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Romans 2 speaks of people who have not had full opportunity being judged by their deeds (which flow from the heart - what God is most concerned with - I am NOT saying we can "save ourselves" with works because we can't). But they can be either accused or condemned - depending on how they respond to the law God writes on all men's hearts.

And I am reminded of two things - that the souls who perished before Christ had the opportunity to hear Him preach in Hades and receive mercy. And being that God is no respecter of persons - it may be that opportunities afforded them will be available to all.

That ties in with something else though. We can be much less hopeful if someone has purposely rejected Christ. However ... there is a VERY great deal of misunderstanding and confused teaching out there. My hope is often that the Christ people reject - is not the real Christ. So with a heart inclined toward good (which can only come from God anyway) ... there can be hope.

Salvation is only through Christ. But people sometimes have a very limited view of how that can happen.

I used to pray for people when I would see an ambulance - not knowing if they were Christian or even if they were still alive, reasoning that even if they had died, God would know I would pray. He isn't limited by time after all. I see nothing wrong whatever your beliefs with praying that your brother did turn to God before or at his death.

I pray God gives you comfort.

Uber Genius said:

I don't think that is what Abion was saying. He was talking about those people who have died and reject God's grace but are a good person. That is the subject and we can't say with assurance that the Bible says good works and being kind hearted, even though you reject God and his free gift of salvation, is enough.

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Even assuming salvation is an offer, how exactly can people be said to truely reject something that they have not been fairly presented? There are many people of goodwill out there who are not Christians for various reasons, other than contempt for the carpenter from Nazareth.

Frankly, it is difficult for me to imagine the same Jesus of Nazareth tossing people into eternal torment for no other reason than they happen to belong to the wrong tribe. Partiality is something that wouldn't be part of God's nature.

FireDragon76 said:

Even assuming salvation is an offer, how exactly can people be said to truly reject something that they have not been fairly presented? There are many people of goodwill out there who are not Christians for various reasons, other than contempt for the carpenter from Nazareth.

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So firstly, this is why this topic is called, "The PROBLEM of Hell," it is obviously controversial.

The traditional response to the individual "Not being fairly presented [with the gospel]" is found in Romans 1:18-20

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

So it has been argued that all do in fact know enough to seek God.

Again this is controversial.

FireDragon76 said:

Frankly, it is difficult for me to imagine the same Jesus of Nazareth tossing people into eternal torment for no other reason than they happen to belong to the wrong tribe. Partiality is something that wouldn't be part of God's nature.

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Yes it is difficult to imagine.

Historically people have used the deductive argument:

God is all-loving therefore wouldn't want anyone to go to hell
God is all-knowing and all-powerful therefore before creating any world would be able to create a world without those unintended consequences.
Therefore no one goes to hell.

However, why do we have all the warnings from Jesus about hell?

Secondly, the argument above fails to accurately account for free-will. Namely how does God treat those who are apathetic about a relationship with God? So this is often argued, "Why would God adopt you as his son or daughter if you didn't want to be adopted?

Thirdly, there are numerous examples of people claiming that even if they met God face to face they would not bow down and worship him. What about their freedom to be autonomous agents?

Fourthly, Why think it is a knowledge project. Her brother was born and lost as a baby and raised in the jungle by apes. Who by the age of 18 hasn't heard about Jesus? How many Christmases and Easters has he attended? When people ignore the important questions:

Where did I come from?
Where do I go when I die?
How do I get meaning in life?
How do I live morally?
How do I relate to my maker if there is one?

they do so at their own peril.

Fifthly, we are missing the fact that God is ALL-JUST and if we are going to stand before Him to be judged, we have to judged in his court and his rules and standards of justice, not ours.

So there are 5 quick things to think about.

I am arguing the data of scripture and have articulated fairly the various views. If we ignore the scriptural data then we destroy not only hell, but heaven, and all of God's revelation. I am a fan of using reason and engaging in rational investigation of all the data and apparent incoherencies (some of which you have highlighted).

Uber, I'm not arguing against the existence of Hell. I'm arguing that the traditional Christian idea that Jesus/God is a tribalist is problematic, and not fitting God's character. Many people don't necessarily freely reject Jesus of Nazareth, the actual historical person. They often reject Christendom and Christianity, which are separate things.

FireDragon76 said:

Uber, I'm not arguing against the existence of Hell. I'm arguing that the traditional Christian idea that Jesus/God is a tribalist is problematic, and not fitting God's character. Many people don't necessarily freely reject Jesus of Nazareth, the actual historical person. They often reject Christendom and Christianity, which are separate things.

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No one who Knows Jesus, reject Him......Had the pharisee knew He was the son of God, they would not have crucified him....