Is it possible to be sinless for 5 seconds straight?

John the Ex-Baptist · Oct 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No, my friend. This is not what the Bible teaches!

Yes my friend, it actually is. As I wrote in my post which you so kindly want to ride roughshod over, especially as you seem to want to intentionally ignore the fact that I immediately quoted the Scripture for the reason I gave an emphatic yes. Never mind though I'll requote my own post here just so it doesn't get lost in your emphatic spewing out a one way dialogue.

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John the Ex-Baptist's earlier post said:
Do you believe that you can be saved by just having a belief on Jesus?
Absolutely 100% yes, yes, YES! There is utterly nothing whatsoever that I can contribute to my salvation, other than having the need to be saved from the wrath of God against my sin. The wonderful truth being that this need has been met in the atoning death of Jesus Christ in my place.

Romans 10:8–13 (ESV)
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Jason0047 said:
The Lord also not only saves in Justification, but He also saves in Sanctification (by helping us to live holy), too

I answered this in the earlier post too, which seems to have gotten overlooked also. You keep on stating that the sanctification of the Spirit is Him helping us to live holy lives, as simply a fact. What I pointed out in the previous post, which I will copy again here, is that our Sanctification is that we are made holy unto the Lord, as God the Holy Spirit regenerates us in our baptism, uniting us in the death and life of Christ. Obviously, there will be righteous works that are the fruit of a sanctified life (which is what James refers to), but they flow FROM our justification and sanctification in Christ.

John's earlier post said:
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2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us from the beginning to salvation by two things. One is a belief and the other is Sanctification of the Spirit (i.e. Holy living).
The passage you quoted says that we are saved "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth". It is not referring to "holy living" as you claim, but by our being regenerated by the Holy Spirit as the redeeming work of Christ is applied to our life in baptism. A cross reference would be here:

Titus 3:4–7 (ESV)
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I am not denying for a second, the necessity for the Christian life to bear the fruit of true repentance and faith, which are the good works we are called into as children of God. But these are borne out of a life that is already both justified and sanctified, and do not contribute to this at all.

It's pretty obvious that they only person you're interested in listening to here is yourself, so if you don't mind sharing a little more. How are you managing living this sinless life yourself by the way? Is it just a five second thing for you, or is it something that lasts much longer?

aiki · Oct 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
If 1 Corinthians 3, Romans 7:14-24, 1 John 1:8 were the only verses in the Bible then you might be on to something,

This isn't how the truth of God is established. You don't get to dismiss out-of-hand verses and passages that give you problems. They exist and they communicate facts to us that qualify, clarify and declare God's truth.

And it isn't just 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Romans 7:14-24 and 1 John 1:8-10 but also 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 6, and 1 Corinthians 11:17-30, 2 Corinthians 12:20-21, Galatians 2:11-14, Galatians 3:1, 2 Thessalonians 3:11, 2 Timothy 4:2, Hebrews 12:5-11.

Jason0047 said:
we have an over abundance of verses that teach that not justifying sin and or living holy (after being saved by God's grace) is also required as a part of the salvation process (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 John 3:15, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Titus 1:16).

There is no salvation process. One is born-again in a moment, not progressively. The writers of the New Testament all speak to believers as those who have been saved, not as those who may be saved if they live right. None of the verses/passages you've offered actually say anything about salvation being by works. Not one. And that's because such a teaching would go directly against the explicit and plain declaration of Scripture that good works do not save anyone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5-7) At best, all that your list of verses/passages indicates is that people who live evil lives are not saved and will not enter into God's kingdom.

Jason0047 said:
Believers are not forgiven of future sin because they still have to go to Jesus (1 John 2:1) and confess sin to be forgiven (1 John 1:9)

Forgiveness for sins has already been obtained for us by Christ (Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; Colossians 2:13; 1 John 2:12). Confession of our sins activates the application of that forgiveness to us for the sin we've committed. John does not say we must ask for forgiveness, only that we admit that what we did was wrong. And when we do, the forgiveness that is already ours in Christ is applied to us.

Jason0047 said:
Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (See Hebrews 5:9).

Because those who obey him are already saved. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree.

Jason0047 said:
If you cannot understand the basic concept of morality that the good guys do good and the bad guys do evil, you are never going to truly understand. Thus, I really cannot help you.

Strawman.

Jason0047 said:
We are told not to be deceived on this point. Yet, you seem to think otherwise.

Strawman.

Jason0047 said:
Yet, you think Christians can lie in wickedness just like the world because you think the Corinthians mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3 were saved carnal Christians.

And another Strawman.

Jason0047 said:
I cannot help you if you don't fully understand or fully accept basic concepts like this.

And...one more Strawman.

~Anastasia~ · Oct 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
It's not possible to worship GOD alone if Jesus had a created human spirit. It is illogical to suggest otherwise.

The idea of "soul" is a bit imprecise. But Jesus has always been taught to be fully God and fully man.

Your suggestion is basically Appolinarianism, which was an early heresy addressed by Christianity.

Maybe this will help.

At the same time, in the fourth century, it was also necessary for the Church to reject the teaching of a certain Appolinarius, who claimed that although Jesus was indeed the incarnate Son and Word of God, the incarnation consisted in the Word merely taking a human body and not the fullness of human nature. This was the doctrine that Jesus had no real human soul, no human mind, no human spirit, but that the divine Son of God, who exists eternally with the Father and the Spirit, merely dwelt in a human body, in human flesh, as in a temple. It is for this reason that every official doctrinal statement in the Orthodox Church, including all of the statements of the ecumenical councils, always insists that the Son of God became man of the Virgin Mary with a rational soul and body; in other words, that the Son of God really became human in the full meaning of the word and that Jesus Christ was and is a real human being, having and being everything that every human being has and is. This is nothing other than the teaching of the Gospels and the New Testament scriptures generally.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same nature . . . [being] made like His brethren in every respect . . . (Heb 2.14–17)

Source: The Orthodox Faith - Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture - The Symbol of Faith - Incarnation

(I know this refers to the Orthodox Church, but at that time there were no divisions and no denominations. It was simply Christianity - the same that produced the Creeds and Scriptures which are the basis of every denomination which followed centuries later.)

To put it simply - Jesus IS the Divine God-man. Fully God, fully man. We may not say otherwise or we do not worship the true Son of God, Son of Man - one Lord Jesus Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2018

@John the Ex-Baptist:

I am giving you this reply because it was a part of what I said I would do. I know you probably ignore it like the rest of my posts (in the fact that you did not continue to explain the actual verses I put forth to you), but I am keeping to my word. I understand that I wrote a lot. So just take a few verses at a time to reply (to start).

Anyways, to keep to my word in what I said before, here is an explanation on what I meant about Paul (and others) referring to: "Works Alone Salvationism" because they were fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" and or in trying to be saved by going back to the Old Contract (or the Old Covenant and it's 613 laws as a whole, i.e. the Law of Moses, i.e. the Law or the works of the Law):

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking, i.e. the Old Covenant is the Old Contract). Ceremonial commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

Well, Here are Verses Showing How The Old Law is No More:

2 Corinthians 3:7-11,
2 Corinthians 3:14,
Romans 7:4,
Romans 7:6,
Colossians 2:14,
Colossians 2:20-23,
Ephesians 2:15,
Hebrews 7:18,
Hebrews 8:13,
Hebrews 9:9-10,
Hebrews 9:15,
Hebrews 9:16-17,
Hebrews 10:8-9,
Matthew 26:27-28,
Matthew 27:20-51,
Acts of the Apostles 15:1,
Acts of the Apostles 15:5,
Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

Note: Hover your cursor over the above verses to read them.

The reason why we read about how Paul emphasizes Grace by faith, and talks against the Law and works is because the apostles were fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" in regards to "Initial Salvation" (or the Foundation of one's faith - which was not even a belief taught in the Old Covenant; Circumcision under the OT at one time was necessary for salvation (Genesis 17:14), but it was only AFTER a person put their faith in God for their salvation - See Romans 4:9-12). But under the New Covenant, circumcision is not even required at all. This command was not repeated to us by Jesus and His followers under the New Covenant (i.e. New Testament). So it is not required anymore.

The Heresy of Circumcision Salvationism Addressed at the Jerusalem Counsel:

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”..............................................................................................................
Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Verses That Show Paul Also Fought Against Circumcision Salvationism:

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

Conclusion:

Paul was not talking against the necessity of following the commands of Jesus Christ after we are saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus). 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud, and they know nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Towards the close of the Bible we read: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:14).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
The idea of "soul" is a bit imprecise. But Jesus has always been taught to be fully God and fully man.

Your suggestion is basically Appolinarianism, which was an early heresy addressed by Christianity.

Maybe this will help.

At the same time, in the fourth century, it was also necessary for the Church to reject the teaching of a certain Appolinarius, who claimed that although Jesus was indeed the incarnate Son and Word of God, the incarnation consisted in the Word merely taking a human body and not the fullness of human nature. This was the doctrine that Jesus had no real human soul, no human mind, no human spirit, but that the divine Son of God, who exists eternally with the Father and the Spirit, merely dwelt in a human body, in human flesh, as in a temple. It is for this reason that every official doctrinal statement in the Orthodox Church, including all of the statements of the ecumenical councils, always insists that the Son of God became man of the Virgin Mary with a rational soul and body; in other words, that the Son of God really became human in the full meaning of the word and that Jesus Christ was and is a real human being, having and being everything that every human being has and is. This is nothing other than the teaching of the Gospels and the New Testament scriptures generally.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same nature . . . [being] made like His brethren in every respect . . . (Heb 2.14–17)

Source: The Orthodox Faith - Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture - The Symbol of Faith - Incarnation

(I know this refers to the Orthodox Church, but at that time there were no divisions and no denominations. It was simply Christianity - the same that produced the Creeds and Scriptures which are the basis of every denomination which followed centuries later.)

To put it simply - Jesus IS the Divine God-man. Fully God, fully man. We may not say otherwise or we do not worship the true Son of God, Son of Man - one Lord Jesus Christ.

*Sigh* You assume I am new to this kind of discussion and the terms involved. I am not new to this at all. I also do not make man made history my authority. History is written by the victors. The Word of God today is my authority. Men can invent terms and say something is heresy, but it does not really mean anything if the Bible teaches it. I believe in the Trinity, Sola Scriptura, Conditional Security, the Pre-Trib Rapture, New Testament Pacifism, and many other things that some would consider as heresy. It does not mean that it is.

Besides, I also have done a study on the soul, spirit, and the body before several times. The soul is a person's mind, will, and emotions. It is the core essence of who they are that controls both their spirit body, and their physical body. Paul's says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. This makes sense because when the rich man died, he appeared to still have a body even after his physical body died. There are many Christian articles out there with great Scriptural resources that show that the soul is a person's: Mind, will, and emotions. I am not going to derail this thread to talk about it here (Side Note: Yes, I am aware that the spirit can be said to express emotion. So can the physical body. This is because the soul moves both the spirit body and the physical body to express emotion kind of like how a hand moves a sock puppet).

You also have to prove your case with Scripture that Jesus had a human soul that was separate and distinct from His divine soul. I have seen other Christians try to put forth Scripture on this one and needless to say there is nothing that even remotely defends this viewpoint. On the contrary, Scripture suggests otherwise because Jesus would not be from everlasting if He had a beginning in the Incarnation. The body was just a shell or a temple. You also could not worship God alone if Jesus had a human soul added into the mix. It is illogical, but you are free to believe in something illogical if you like. However, the Lord our God is not the author of confusion.

~Anastasia~ · Oct 31, 2018

Well I'm not going to argue ancient heresies with you. And I'm sorry - please forgive me. I don't mean any insult to what effort you've put toward studying. This is nothing personal between us.

Nestorius, Arius, and all the others who proposed various heresies had the same writings you have in your Bible. They simply used their human logic (as you are doing to say that if Jesus was man, and we worship Jesus, we must be worshipping man and not God alone, so we would be wrong). Human reasoning can lead to such pitfalls. It's nothing new.

Christianity is not a "man-made tradition". Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to the Church which He established and that He would lead them into all Truth.

People just like to accept parts of it, but reject other parts based on their own reasoning.

There are plenty of historical documents available to anyone who wants to seriously look into it. I'm not really trying to argue with you or change your mind. That's all between you and God and I'm certainly not your judge. My purpose in posting is really for the sake of lurkers or others who may read this from future searches.

Jesus from the Incarnation was and IS fully God, fully Man. Period. Full stop. That's what is important for me to proclaim.

God be with you.

Jason0047 said:
*Sigh* You assume I am new to this kind of discussion and the terms involved. I am not new to this at all. I also do not make man made history my authority. History is written by the victors. The Word of God today is my authority. Men can invent terms and say something is heresy, but it does not really mean anything if the Bible teaches it. I believe in the Trinity, Sola Scriptura, Conditional Security, the Pre-Trib Rapture, New Testament Pacifism, and many other things that some would consider as heresy. It does not mean that it is.

Besides, I also have done a study on the soul, spirit, and the body before several times. The soul is a person's mind, will, and emotions. It is the core essence of who they are that controls both their spirit body, and their physical body. Paul's says there is a natural body and a spiritual body. This makes sense because when the rich man died, he appeared to still have a body even after his physical body died. There are many Christian articles out there with great Scriptural resources that show that the soul is a person's: Mind, will, and emotions. I am not going to derail this thread to talk about it here (Side Note: Yes, I am aware that the spirit can be said to express emotion. So can the physical body. This is because the soul moves both the spirit body and the physical body to express emotion kind of like how a hand moves a sock puppet).

You also have to prove your case with Scripture that Jesus had a human soul that was separate and distinct from His divine soul. I have seen other Christians try to put forth Scripture on this one and needless to say there is nothing that even remotely defends this viewpoint. On the contrary, Scripture suggests otherwise because Jesus would not be from everlasting if He had a beginning in the Incarnation. The body was just a shell or a temple. You also could not worship God alone if Jesus had a human soul added into the mix. It is illogical, but you are free to believe in something illogical if you like. However, the Lord our God is not the author of confusion.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2018

aiki said:
This isn't how the truth of God is established. You don't get to dismiss out-of-hand verses and passages that give you problems. They exist and they communicate facts to us that qualify, clarify and declare God's truth.

And it isn't just 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Romans 7:14-24 and 1 John 1:8-10 but also 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 6, and 1 Corinthians 11:17-30, 2 Corinthians 12:20-21, Galatians 2:11-14, Galatians 3:1, 2 Thessalonians 3:11, 2 Timothy 4:2, Hebrews 12:5-11.

This is a false accusation. I don't dismiss verses like these out of hand. I have explained most of them many times before.

RE: 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 - This is talking about spiritually dead brothers who need to be spoke to as if they were spiritually babies because they should have matured into adults (not that they are spiritual babies because babies naturally grow up). Luke 15:32 says that a brother can be dead spiritually and become alive again spiritually; Also, James 5:19-20 addresses the "Brethren" and says that if anyone of them errs from the truth and is converted back again (converts the sinner from the error of their way), they are to know that they are saving a soul from "death." Meaning, the brethren can fall into spiritual death and be converted back again to the saving of their soul. In 1 Corinthians 3: They are called "carnal." The carnal type people are not saved. "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:6-8).

RE: Romans 7:14-24:

Please click on the following spoiler button to learn what I have written on this.

In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2018

aiki said:
This isn't how the truth of God is established. You don't get to dismiss out-of-hand verses and passages that give you problems. They exist and they communicate facts to us that qualify, clarify and declare God's truth.

And it isn't just 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, Romans 7:14-24 and 1 John 1:8-10 but also 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 6, and 1 Corinthians 11:17-30, 2 Corinthians 12:20-21, Galatians 2:11-14, Galatians 3:1, 2 Thessalonians 3:11, 2 Timothy 4:2, Hebrews 12:5-11.

Re: 1 John 1:8-10:

1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 changes the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

The proper way to deal with sin is not to ignore it in some way by saying it is paid for by Jesus by having a mere belief on Him, but we are to deal with sin by confessing sin in order to be forgiven of it (1 John 1:9). This is in view of forsaking sin (See 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41, cf. with Jonah 3:6-10). For John says to "sin not." (1 John 2:1); And Jesus says to "sin no more" (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

RE: 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 6:

Not sure how that helps you here. These chapters mention how sins can separate and cause a loss of salvation (See 1 Corinthians 5:11-13, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

RE: 1 Corinthians 11:17-30:

Not sure how this helps you. 1 Corinthians 11:29 says, "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."

Speaking of Damnation:

John 5:29 says,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

RE: 2 Corinthians 12:20-21:

You have to keep reading. In 2 Corinthians 13:5, Paul says prove that Christ be in you, unless you be reprobate. We can have an assurance in knowing Christ if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). For the person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). Note: A person needs Jesus in order to have life or salvation; For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life.

RE: Galatians 2:11-14:

Not sure how this helps you. I have been saying on this thread that we are not under the Old Contract or the Old Testament (that are 613 commands given to Israel). We are under a New Contract or New Covenant (with some of those laws being repeated in the New Contract) that come from Jesus and His followers within the pages of the New Testament. We are not under the ceremonial laws like the Sabbath, the dietary laws, circumcision, etc. When Paul was talking against the Law and Works, he was speaking against the heresy of Circumcision Salvation as the Foundation of a person's faith (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21). This fact is made even more clear at the Jerusalem Counsel (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

RE: Galatians 3:1:

Galatians 3:2 references the works of the Law of Moses because in Galatians 2:3 it says, "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised", Galatians 5:2 says, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." No command was given to us by Jesus and His followers to be circumcised. That was Old Covenant and not New Covenant. This Circumcision Salvationism did not even work in the Old Covenant because they were seeking to make circumcision the first thing you needed to do in order to be saved. But not even Abraham was saved that way. Abraham first needed to have faith in God to be saved (See Romans 4:9-12), and then he need to LATER be circumcised as a continuation of the salvation process. Genesis 17:14 says: "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." But under the New Covenant (or the teachings of Jesus and His followers): We are not even commanded to be circumcised.

RE: 2 Thessalonians 3:11:

When you read this verse, you also to have to read verses prior to it that say things like this:

"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

People are damned because not only they do not believe the truth, but because they have pleasure in unrighteousness, too.

RE: 2 Timothy 4:2:

Not sure how this verse helps you. It talks about rebuking others according to the Word.

If you skip back a chapter, you would read this:

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Yet, you think that a Christian can be carnal (which describes the list of believers above) and still be saved. Sorry, the Bible does not support your belief.

RE: Hebrews 12:5-11:

The purpose of goal of the chastening is the fruits of righteousness.

"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:11).

Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. So if one's chastening does not yield fruit, it will be cut down like a branch and tossed into the fire (John 15:6).

For if a dog poops on the carpet, it's master can chasten the dog by lightly smacking him on the nose and yelling at him to stop. But if the master knew that the dog had an uncontrollable pooping problem, and the master still lightly smacked the dog and yelled at it for pooping (When it has no control over it's pooping function), then it would not make any sense for the master to do that. It would be cruel because the dog cannot help but to poop. You want me to believe that believers always sin as per 1 John 1:8. So correction or chastening does not even make sense in light of your belief.

RDKirk · Oct 31, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
The idea of "soul" is a bit imprecise. But Jesus has always been taught to be fully God and fully man.

Your suggestion is basically Appolinarianism, which was an early heresy addressed by Christianity.

Maybe this will help.

At the same time, in the fourth century, it was also necessary for the Church to reject the teaching of a certain Appolinarius, who claimed that although Jesus was indeed the incarnate Son and Word of God, the incarnation consisted in the Word merely taking a human body and not the fullness of human nature. This was the doctrine that Jesus had no real human soul, no human mind, no human spirit, but that the divine Son of God, who exists eternally with the Father and the Spirit, merely dwelt in a human body, in human flesh, as in a temple. It is for this reason that every official doctrinal statement in the Orthodox Church, including all of the statements of the ecumenical councils, always insists that the Son of God became man of the Virgin Mary with a rational soul and body; in other words, that the Son of God really became human in the full meaning of the word and that Jesus Christ was and is a real human being, having and being everything that every human being has and is. This is nothing other than the teaching of the Gospels and the New Testament scriptures generally.

There must be more to what Appolinarianism says than that.

~Anastasia~ · Oct 31, 2018

RDKirk said:
There must be more to what Appolinarianism says than that.

Well I wasn't going for expanding greatly - I was trying to simplify.

Like I said, just for the sake of lurkers, etc. - we can't consider Jesus body to be a mere "tent". St. Athanasius famously said "that which is not assumed is not healed". The understanding of salvation and human history is SO MUCH richer than simply a forensic understanding, and to fail to understand that Jesus became truly human cuts off much of it.

It's a bit of a derail for this thread anyway, which there is a lot of good things that could be said - but people here are misunderstanding each other too much.

Just basic "Who was Christ?" deserves to be answered.

RDKirk · Oct 31, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
Well I wasn't going for expanding greatly - I was trying to simplify.

Like I said, just for the sake of lurkers, etc. - we can't consider Jesus body to be a mere "tent".

I'm not sure why not.

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. -- 2 Corinthians 5

~Anastasia~ · Oct 31, 2018

RDKirk said:
I'm not sure why not.

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. -- 2 Corinthians 5

"Tent" is even a huge word in Scripture - going back to God with the Israelites in the wilderness - if we read the Greek it's very evocative.

It's not "tent" that's a problem. It's the idea that Jesus merely assumed the physical appearance of a man, like a "human suit" which I believe the poster I was answering originally said. Jesus didn't just "appear to be" human. He really and truly BECAME human in the Incarnation.

That's a very important point. Though a simply forensic justification understanding might miss why.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
Well I'm not going to argue ancient heresies with you. And I'm sorry - please forgive me. I don't mean any insult to what effort you've put toward studying. This is nothing personal between us.

Nestorius, Arius, and all the others who proposed various heresies had the same writings you have in your Bible. They simply used their human logic (as you are doing to say that if Jesus was man, and we worship Jesus, we must be worshipping man and not God alone, so we would be wrong). Human reasoning can lead to such pitfalls. It's nothing new.

Christianity is not a "man-made tradition". Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to the Church which He established and that He would lead them into all Truth.

People just like to accept parts of it, but reject other parts based on their own reasoning.

There are plenty of historical documents available to anyone who wants to seriously look into it. I'm not really trying to argue with you or change your mind. That's all between you and God and I'm certainly not your judge. My purpose in posting is really for the sake of lurkers or others who may read this from future searches.

Jesus from the Incarnation was and IS fully God, fully Man. Period. Full stop. That's what is important for me to proclaim.

God be with you.

God gave us a brain to think and to reason. "Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord" (Isaiah 1:18). "God is not the author of confusion." (1 Corinthians 14:33).

*Post Edit (Update):*

Man made history (in general) is written by men.

While I am not saying that any particular religious group lied themselves, It's a fact of life that men of this world lie (and a non-religious group could have altered historical documents that deals with a certain religious group); I will take my chances on God's Word as being the sole source that I ultimately trust and not what men write (that is not a part of God's Word).

~Anastasia~ · Oct 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
God gave us a brain to think and to reason. "Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord" (Isaiah 1:18). "God is not the author of confusion." (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Man made history is written by men.

It's a fact of life that men of this world lie; Especially when they are unbelievers in Christ. I will take my chances on God's Word as being the sole source that I ultimately trust and not what men write (that is not a part of God's Word).

Peace to you.

(Though I will assume you don't mean to say that early Christians or myself are lying unbelievers.)

RDKirk · Oct 31, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
"Tent" is even a huge word in Scripture - going back to God with the Israelites in the wilderness - if we read the Greek it's very evocative.

It's not "tent" that's a problem. It's the idea that Jesus merely assumed the physical appearance of a man, like a "human suit" which I believe the poster I was answering originally said. Jesus didn't just "appear to be" human. He really and truly BECAME human in the Incarnation.

That's a very important point. Though a simply forensic justification understanding might miss why.

Well, we've gone off the topic, and this is being discussed in another thread, but the essential issue here is what "human" actually means.

And that's not by any means a settled issue.

~Anastasia~ · Oct 31, 2018

RDKirk said:
Well, we've gone off the topic, and this is being discussed in another thread, but the essential issue here is what "human" actually means.

And that's not by any means a settled issue.

I really thought the oft-heard "fully God and fully Man" answered it for most folks. It is enough of an understanding, I think ...

RDKirk · Oct 31, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
I really thought the oft-heard "fully God and fully Man" answered it for most folks. It is enough of an understanding, I think ...

That's just "Christianese" for a state of being that nobody actually fully comprehends.

The early Church Fathers never claimed to fully comprehend it, but folks today argue vehemently as though they did.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
Though I will assume you don't mean to say that early Christians or myself are lying unbelievers.

Well, unless you have a time machine and you had written history, I think it is safe to say I am not talking about you. I am talking about historical documents written by men in general. Somebody else could have altered history and it did not need to be the actual religious group itself but it could have been others who are not religious. We just don't know. I am not saying all historical documents are lies, I am just saying that they are not reliable. It's not like the Bible (Which is clear that it is a book that is divine in origin). God is not going to judge me if I don't get my history right or if I didn't trust those documents. God is going to judge me by His Word and His Word alone. So unless you have clear cut verses that shows that Jesus has a soul, you got nothing in my book (i.e. my book being the Word of God, or the Bible).

Side Note:

I re-edited my previous post to you.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
Peace to you.

And peace to you, as well.
The peace of the Lord Jesus Christ (as described in His Word of course).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 31, 2018

@John the Ex-Baptist:

Well, the Bible does not say that a Christian is a sinner (i.e. As if to say they are still living that kind of life after receiving Jesus) whereby they can then declare that they are saved by God's grace (despite their remaining in their sins). This sounds to me like it is turning God's grace into a license for sin (or immorality). Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "the Foundation of our Faith." Ephesians 2:10 is a brief mention of works of faith that follows God's saving grace that is by faith. Paul is focused primarily on "Initial Salvation" here.

First, we need to understand that Paul is not against holiness here in Ephesians 2:8-9.

For Ephesians 1:4 says,
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

A Christian cannot be a sinner and yet also be holy and without blame before Christ in love.

Second, Ephesians 2:2-3 talks about how we were once in times past we were sinners (fulfilling the desires of the flesh). In other words, sin is a part of our old life and not our new life. Also, Ephesians 2:1 also says that we have been quickened. So Ephesians 2 is primarily talking about "Initial Salvation." For being quickened is a one time event. To be quickened means to be born again spiritually (Which can happen when we first seek forgiveness with the Lord). In fact, Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love," (Which is a general call to all that a person needs to accept Christ, i.e. "Initial Salvation").

Three, to comment on Ephesians 2:8-9:

This passage is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation." This salvation is by God's grace, who is a person named Jesus Christ and what He has done for us, by which we are saved by the vehicle of faith. We are saved by His mercy when we first come to Him and we are saved by His mercy if we were to stumble (on occasion) in the fact that we seek forgiveness with Him by faith. This is not something that is of ourselves that we can take credit for here. This is God's grace. It can cleanse us. Both when we first come to Him and if we ever were to stumble on occasion. It is a gift of God. Jesus. He is that gift. For by Jesus we can seek out His forgiveness and be reconciled by what He has done for us with His death and resurrection.

This Jesus who is grace and the gift is what saves us ultimately and it is not of our works alone. For if salvation was by works alone, then a man could boast. So salvation is not by Works Alone so that any man should boast. But that does not discount the necessity of works of faith that must follow God's grace later (which is by faith). We see in the hall of faith, men of faith who always had works of faith to show you their faith (See Hebrews 11). For James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18); For a faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

In other words, Paul was arguing against "Works Alone Salvationism" (Ephesians 2:8-9) and James was arguing against "Faith Alone Salvationism." (James 2:24).

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Nothing in Ephesians 2 is clearly mentioned about Sanctification (or living holy) as a part of our salvation because it's focus is fighting against Works Alone Salvationism. However, we know by other verses in the Bible that Sanctification is a part of our salvation (See again: 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Even Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. So Scripture has to be read as a whole and we cannot isolate verses so as to justify a wrong belief (Especially when that belief is immoral). We have to walk in the light as He is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin (See 1 John 1:7) (Note: The light = God, and the "walking part of walking in the light" is in reference to loving your brother, see: 1 John 2:10-11).

Is it possible to be sinless for 5 seconds straight?

Is it possible to be sinless for 5 seconds straight?

Yes

No

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† Handmaid of God †

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

† Handmaid of God †

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

† Handmaid of God †

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

† Handmaid of God †

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

† Handmaid of God †

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

† Handmaid of God †

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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