Pre tribulation is awful grammar

Choose Wisely · Oct 31, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

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I cued you in to post this the other day and you failed your cut and paste mission.

Why don't you add some comments so I know what point you are trying to make. Is that point that there were twelve tribes in the days of the apostles? That they were scattered abroad? That their faith was tried?

BABerean2 · Oct 31, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
I cued you in to post this the other day and you failed your cut and paste mission.

Why don't you add some comments so I know what point you are trying to make. Is that point that there were twelve tribes in the days of the apostles? That they were scattered abroad? That their faith was tried?

Comments like...

James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" in James 1:1-3, which were his brethren in the faith, as members of the first century Church.

Is that what you were looking for?

Sorry, I did not realize the passage was that difficult.

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Billy Evmur · Oct 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
Thank you. In your view after the death of all the wicked and the raising from the dead of the righteous, who is left to populate the millennial kingdom?

Or is your view there are no human corruptible bodies populating the earth even though some rise up with Satan after the 1000 years to come against the righteous?

If you believe the white throne judgement, you are obliged to believe the 1,000 year reign which precedes it. Ist comes the 1,000 years reign then comes the final judgement.

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

Billy Evmur said:
If you believe the white throne judgement, you are obliged to believe the 1,000 year reign which precedes it. Ist comes the 1,000 years reign then comes the final judgement.

How amazing: EXACTLY as written. Why do so many struggle over what John wrote?

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
I believe that the church will be raptured pretrib.......it will be like the days of Noah. They were eating and drinking until the day that Noah entered the ark. It is not until the Church is gone that God turns his attention to His ELECT. So I don't think that we will be seeing any mass conversions before the church is gone. In fact it is very likely that the Church will be raptured on Pentecost, the early summer wheat harvest feast. I think the twelve tribes will take notice when they see people disappear on this harvest feast. That's what likely gets their attention that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah.

Several prophets in the past have prophesied that just before the rapture there will be a great revival. I guess you doubt this.

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

JacksBratt said:
Does this mean that, due to us seeming to be close to the end times, that we should see the conversion of the 144,000 soon? Would not this conversion be a sign of the coming rapture then? I would, then, be difficult for the rapture to be at an unknown time.. like a thief in the night.

If they were born again before the rapture, why would they be left behind?

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Everything fits perfectly if you just put things where the word says they go instead of concluding.........Well it can't be like it says because of such and such. Example...........If you gave these verses to someone

Matt 24
9 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And said........go to Revelation and find where you think these verses are. Only a blind man would miss this. They would go to Rev 6 at the sixth seal.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

But what is totally incredible is that most people look right past these OBVIOUS verses because they can't understand how to make their time line work.

When I look at how perfectly everything lines up when you put events where God says to put them. It's unbelievably perfect.........and yet I sit in amazement where everyone puts everything. It's totally fascinating.

Everything fits perfectly........put the sledgehammer away.

Only someone with a wild imagination would go to the 6th seal. They would find the tribulation and then look for a coming AFTER the days of tribulation.

Perhaps if you sent several 5th graders to the book of Joel and asked them "how many times will the signs in the sun and moon be seen" I suspect most of them would give a number higher than 1. And they would be correct.

If we sent a hundred 5th graders to read Revelation and tell us after where would be the days of great tribulation, how many, do you suppose would say "before the 6th seal?" My guess is, NONE. They would read chapter 13 and say that it must be after that chapter. They would not be sophisticated enough to imagine God jumbled up the sequences between the several 1 to 7 sequences.

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Can't go with you on this one JacksBratt. The 144,000 are first fruits meaning that they are raptured to heaven prior to the harvest which will bethe fall fruit harvest.
Rev 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Finally! Hallelujah! Something we agree on! My guess is, they will receive resurrection bodies just as the church will.

Choose Wisely · Oct 31, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Comments like...

James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" in James 1:1-3, which were his brethren in the faith, as members of the first century Church.

Is that what you were looking for?

Sorry, I did not realize the passage was that difficult.

.

Which means what exactly? Most people realize that the 1st members of the church were of the 12 tribes. Then Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.........as instructed.

Are you trying to say that Israel replaced the church?

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

JacksBratt said:
I agree. And it will be the 144,000 that turn to Christ as the true Messiah, who will be the humans that live and populate the earth during the millennial age.

It is FAR more likely to be those that flee into the wilderness and those that escape through the new valley formed when Jesus touches down that will replenish the earth.

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Good point. Additionally note that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood. The church will be raptured pretrib and will be in the ark in the hour of testing.

And the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. The 12 tribes will be raptured pre wrath and the wrath of God begins that day.

The nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God.....the ones that flee will be protected.

I remain totally astounded that people must rewrite Revelation to fit their theory.

Truth: God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and continues on for the ENTIRE WEEK. And God the SON has wrath when He descends to the battle.

Remember: 6th seal wrath. The 144,000 are raptured somewhere close to the midpoint of the week: chapter 11. They are seen in heaven in chapter 14. Therefore the 144,000 are raptured DURING God's wrath. The 144,000 will escape the vials of God's wrath.

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

JacksBratt said:
Are........ You....... Serious? LOL this site makes me laugh and, at the same time, embarrasses me.

C'mon people. They even call it a "tribulation Ark"... Seriously?

What kind of God do we have that leaves us to worry and spend time in preparation for a time where we will be hunted down and killed?

Did Noah have to worry? Did Lot have to worry... No.. God removed both of them from the judgement.

Noah was given specific instructions, by God, on how he was going to be removed. Do you know anyone that has been given specific instructions on how to build a bunker or dehydrate food.. Nope.

Lot had angels come and physically take him and his family to safety.

We are given specific details on how we are going to be removed.....

Do we have to hoard and plan? Do we have to spend resources to prepare for the day when God will forsake us and leave us to fend for our own in a world of total hate toward Christians?

Do you not think that civil and military sources are going to have trouble finding these places? I mean.. they are advertising on the net... The new world order will just plunk a bunker buster right down the chimney.

We don't need to spend our money and buy dehydrated food or drums of water... or dig holes in the ground or build any kind of bunker..

Christ said " I will never leave you or forsake you". Did He lie?

Why then does scripture say : Comfort one another with these words?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

People are getting rich on the fear of those who are worrying about their future.

Christ also said
Luke 12:25 New International Version (NIV)
25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life?

Not to mention that we have this to lean on and have hope for and trust our Lord and Savior.

Matthew 6:34 King James Version (KJV)
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Good post!

iamlamad · Oct 31, 2018

JacksBratt said:
Another couple of questions that I have in regards to this topic is.... where are you going to go and what are you going to do?

So, for seven years... that's seven entire years.. You will be without a job. Without currency. Without the ability to travel or move around in plain sight. You will not have food... heat... shelter...and will have to be in constant hiding. The entire population will be out to expose you, turn you in.. or kill you for ransom...

So, What are you going to do to survive for these seven years?

And.

How many Christians do you think will survive to the end... in order to be associated with the "those that remain" who will be caught up to meet with the "dead in Christ" who will rise first.

There is only ONE scripture that fits believers during this time - a scripture that overrides all others: believers will be OVERCOME. That is the only verse believers can have true faith in during that season of time. Great Post, Jack!

Choose Wisely · Oct 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
Several prophets in the past have prophesied that just before the rapture there will be a great revival. I guess you doubt this.

There certainly may be a revival in the church. Even though I think we will see an increase in those of the 12 tribes coming to see that Jesus is the Messiah, I don't think there will be a mass movement until the scales are taken away. That will likely happen when they note the fact that there are lots of people missing, likely on one of their harvest feast days.

Choose Wisely · Oct 31, 2018

JacksBratt said:
Another couple of questions that I have in regards to this topic is.... where are you going to go and what are you going to do?

So, for seven years... that's seven entire years.. You will be without a job. Without currency. Without the ability to travel or move around in plain sight. You will not have food... heat... shelter...and will have to be in constant hiding. The entire population will be out to expose you, turn you in.. or kill you for ransom...

So, What are you going to do to survive for these seven years?

And.

How many Christians do you think will survive to the end... in order to be associated with the "those that remain" who will be caught up to meet with the "dead in Christ" who will rise first.

I would not be concerned about going through the 7 years and being OVERCOME. The 70th week is the time of Jacobs trouble. If you are a true believer you should be paying attention to Luke 21.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It says you can escape all the things that will come to pass. That means the rider on the white horse, false christs.......that means the rider on the red horse, wars and rumors of wars, .........that means the rider on the black horse, famines and pestilence etc. ALL THESE THINGS.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 31, 2018

Billy Evmur said:
John Nelson Darby was a villain, no doubt about it. He is the father of Pretribulation doctrine.
An Oxford educated theologian he knew very well that the word apostasies in 2.Thessalonians.2. meant falling away as in rebellion but he reinterpreted it to mean departure or removal as in from one place to another. He knew it was wrong therefore he deliberately set out to deceive in order to produce his pretribulation doctrine.

But it is awful grammar.

He says concerning the rapture [in essence] That day will not come unless there been a rapture.
The rapture doesn't come unless there has been a rapture
doesn't make one iota of sense.

Billy Evmur said:
Sure he did, the whole church from ancient times believed the church would go through the great tribulation or persecution.

The man of sin, the son of perdition is the author of the great tribulation or persecution.

"he will oppose and exalt himself above everything called god or is worshipped." does that sound like troublation to you?

Billy Evmur said:
Jesus was post trib "after the tribulation of those days.....they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven""

But Darby's rendition of 2.Thess.2 is awful grammar. Darby is the father of pretrib doctrine.

Billy Evmur said:
Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days...He will send out His angels to gather His elect"

This is when He comes in the clouds with trumpets and angels with great power and glory, as in Luke so in 2.Thess.2 as in John "behold He comes in the clouds and every eye shall see Him..."

What coming of Christ are YOU talking about...there is no other in scripture...Darby made it up.

I found nothing in your posts I disagree with.
I am a Post Trib and Pre Mill Preterist. Praise God!

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized

LittleLambofJesus said:
Matthew 10:
16 ‘Behold!, I do send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves, be ye therefore wise as the serpents, and simple as the doves.
17 And, take ye heed of men, for they will give you up to sanhedrins, and in their synagogues they will scourge you,

Matthew 23:
33 'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
34 ‘Because of this behold! I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes
And of them ye shall be killing and crucifying,
and of them ye will scourge<3146> in your synagogues<4864>,
and will pursue from city to city;

Mark 13:9
‘And take ye heed to yourselves,
for they shall deliver you up to sanhedrins<4892>, and to synagogues,
ye shall be beaten<1194>,

Luke 21:12
and before all these,
they shall lay on you their hands, and persecute<1377>,
delivering<3860> up to synagogues and prisons<5438>,

Luke 22:66
And when it became day there was gathered together the elders of the people, chief priests also, and scribes,
and they led Him up to their own sanhedrin,

Revelation 6:11
and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time,
till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are being about to be killed -- even as they.

Revelation 7:14
and I have said to him, 'Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me,
'These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation,
and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;

BABerean2 · Oct 31, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Which means what exactly? Most people realize that the 1st members of the church were of the 12 tribes. Then Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.........as instructed.

Are you trying to say that Israel replaced the church?

Based on Acts of the Apostles 2:36-41, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5, part of Israel became the Church on the Day of Pentecost.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 31, 2018

dysert said:
There is no one so blind as he who chooses not to see.

That is what is written............
YLT)
John 9:
39 And Jesus said, 'For judgment I to this world did come, that those not seeing may see, and those seeing may become blind.'
41 Jesus said to them,
"If ye were blind, ye were not having had sin, but now ye say -- 'We see', therefore doth your sin remain."
John 19:11
Jesus answered, 'Thou wouldst have no authority against Me, if it were not having been given thee from Above;
because of this, he who is delivering Me up to thee hath greater sin.'

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:24
"Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.'

...While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

Jeremiah 17:1
The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron,
With the point of a diamond, Graven on the tablet of their heart,
And on the Horns of your Altars,
Revelation 9:13
And the sixth Messenger did sound,
and I heard a Voice out of the four Horns of the Altar of gold that is before GOD,

.

Choose Wisely · Oct 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
I remain totally astounded that people must rewrite Revelation to fit their theory.

Who's rewriting anything. All I'm doing is putting the signs of Matt 24 exactly where they go in Rev 6. I don't tell myself that it can't go where God says it goes BECAUSE. Same goes with the abomination of desolation. All I'm doing is putting it where it says it goes........1290 days after the sacrifice is taken away. I'm don't tell myself....it can't be BECAUSE. Basically it's you that don't realize all you have to do is put things where the word says to put them. I don't have to make up a coming of Jesus at the end of the 5th seal. That the amazing part......you chose random spots for Jesus coming. Gee......I think it goes here because it looks like a good spot.

iamlamad said:
Truth: God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and continues on for the ENTIRE WEEK. And God the SON has wrath when He descends to the battle.

Or maybe we can go with what the word says. The week is OVER at the 6th seal. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. Those left on earth are saying hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne. There's that coming that you can't find. We can also see it in Matt 24.
Matt 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

iamlamad said:
Remember: 6th seal wrath. The 144,000 are raptured somewhere close to the midpoint of the week: chapter 11.

Remember.......the week is over at the 6th seal. Christ has come. Wrath begins with the opening of the 7th seal and ends in chapter 11 at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our God.l

iamlamad said:
They are seen in heaven in chapter 14. Therefore the 144,000 are raptured DURING God's wrath. The 144,000 will escape the vials of God's wrath.

Since the wrath of God ends at the 7th trumpet, you are getting another view of the tribulation in chapter 14. And conveniently we see a coming of the Lord at the end of Chapter 14 and we see those that are not gathered by the angels cast into the wrath of God. Gee that looks like exactly what happens at the end of Rev 6 and Matt 24. How did that happen?

BABerean2 · Oct 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
If they were born again before the rapture, why would they be left behind?

It is the wicked that are "taken" first in the parable of the wheat and tares.
The wheat is "left behind" to be gathered into the barn.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The same is true in the passage below.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

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Pre tribulation is awful grammar

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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