Saints, Angels, Satan, and Demons: Question to protestants
- Thread starter Cis.jd
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We are asked to pray for one another, comfort one another, encourage one another and confess our sins to one another - as living bricks; fellow members of the body of Christ.
I'm not aware of the apostles asking Stephen, James and those believers who had been murdered during persecution, to pray for and help them. That is what the Holy Spirit is for; not believers who are with the Lord.
It's a parable that Jesus told/something that he taught - so it's relevant and we can learn from it.
The rich man was told that Lazarus would not help his brothers, by going to their house and warning them; that's what the Scriptures were for. Today, we don't need the help, or prayers, of long dead saints; that's the Holy Spirit's role.
And something that the body of Christ can do for us.
I believe in the communion of saints - those in heaven, and on earth, all worship God.
I don't see any evidence that dead saints are asked to pray for, and support us, in our earthly lives.
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MyGivenNameIsKeith
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When it comes to the efficacy of prayer in faith, having more people praying doesn't necessarily mean it will work MORE, no more than when Moses was told to strike the rock for water and he insisted he hit it twice because he thus lacked faith. God was not happy.
Numbers 20:11-12 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
So the efficacy of interceding for you by a saint is the same line of thinking. You lack faith in your own prayer's efficacy to be received by Jesus on your behalf. That he will answer it as he said.
Isaiah 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
When Jesus tells you if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain. A mustard seed. And you say you need the entire entourage of heaven's armies to make your prayer work? That's quite contrary to what Jesus said isn't it?
Anyways blah blah blah some theology stuff, apologetics, insert here....its all pointless for the sake it is all vanity and debate and is unfruitful. You've heard it.
Now let God speak to your heart.
Nevertheless, you still never addressed what other had so prominently pointed out, which I believe is the elephant in the room here....
You have avoided what St Worm asked you earlier..
Why do you personally ask an angel to intercede for you instead of going to God directly?
You personally. Not a theology answer, or whatever. Your testimony.
Why not call upon the name above all names?
The name that raised you to new life from being spiritually dead?
I would listen to that.
Because everything else is just somebody cutting and pasting scripture quotes for the sake of arguing on some forum to get their jollies and does nothing to advance the kingdom.
So...let's advance the kingdom and talk for real.
Why do you personally ask an angel for intercession? Whatever led you to do that?
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disciple Clint
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The request for prayer in not about trying to accumulate more prayers in an effort to convince God to grant the prayer. It is about supporting and encouraging others and to be of one mind. When we pray over someone or pray with them we are giving them comfort and encouragement. We should follow up with them and continue to encourage them as long as they have a need. It is certainly not because we think God is holding back on granting a prayer until a certain number of like prayers are received or until someone who is sufficiently Holy joins in the prayer. God grants prayer based on what is in agreement with His will. I pray for others also because I do not know if they will pray for themselves and I know that they need God's help.
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I believe you are right, it's possible also for angels (maybe also saints and those who died) to hear our prayers. The question is if we are to ask them for intercession.
New agers know that even a person can pick up prayers from individuals far off, so why can't angels. An example is if you have a guru in in India and sit in meditation and prayer to him, you can be connected to this guru. So if it works human to human, it should obviously also work human to angel. That is my reasoning.
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NIV First-Century Study Bible
12:1 Cloud of witnesses. The word “witness” (Greek martys) can also mean “spectator” (which could be used in the translation of 1Ti 6:12). The author uses the arena or amphitheater as an image in which previous generations witness the present faith of the community as if they are fans in the crowd. Not long after Hebrews was written, Christians did in fact bear witness as martyrs in the arenas and amphitheaters of the empire in a literal sense
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A Christian guru ?
I understand Christianity to attribute all supra-natural phenomena solely to God in heaven.
IF you could actually commune with some other faithful person elsewhere on earth, it would (then) have to be mediated by God in heaven, Who, being aware of the one, would then communicate their presence to the other
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Well can you absolutely guarantee that they do hear your prayers? Because they're in Christ positionally doesn't necessary have to mean they have the capacity to hear and assess the prayers of men. In the other world what do we really know about how things function? Could saved people there have agenda's or responsibilities of certain things and aren't standing around the throne room where prayers come up and are heard? My point we don't even know for sure how the world of the Spirit functions. And while we're encouraged to have fellow Christians on the earth to pray for us do we see any instruction to call upon people in the other world? No. Should that tell us something? I think so.
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No, New age guru. Is there such thing as a Christian guru?
From my experience in New age, I know we can contact people by thinking, meditating, and visualising that person. So if we can pick it up from each other, why can't angels pick it up from us?
Many of us have probably had the feeling that someone is going to call, and then the phone rings and it's that person we just thought about.
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My main question is still this: Are all the accounts of saints performing miracles through personal visions and such invalid? In the Orthodox Church we have the Synaxarion, or "Lives of the Saints" which is a compilation of all the lives of the Saints on our liturgical calendar. Just reading through a week will be filled with stories of men asking saints for help and receiving it. Many times people will see visions of the saint in the sky or in a dream, sometimes with Christ and then get what they were praying for or more.
Is the proof not in the result?
We are after all not Muslims with only an holy book but no living faith. I have seen the truth in my Church's beliefs through evidence of God and his Saints working within it. Bring me some evidence that can debunk that.
Is the proof not in the result?
We are after all not Muslims with only an holy book but no living faith. I have seen the truth in my Church's beliefs through evidence of God and his Saints working within it. Bring me some evidence that can debunk that.
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I didn't post either as proof for that point. People were claiming those in heaven can't hear us, and that verse says otherwise.
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This is exactly what the topic is asking. I don't want to go into to much bible talk to defend the practice of invoking saints because I think there are many threads that did this already, but it is more of this type of question that you have in your quote that I am getting at.
Why do you believe satan and his demons can hear your thoughts or even the prayers of satanists or just random skeptics playing around, yet you can't believe that Saints and angels can hear the prayers of those connected to the body of Christ.
Saints can't hear or intercede on their own power, it is through the power of the Holy Spirit that they are capable of doing so. Yet Satan and his demons do not have any of this from the HS, yet they can hear regardless of them roaming?
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But the power of prayer is also determined by the amount of faith, that is why it is more powerful for more people to pray in agreement than just one person. What happens if, I myself am a man of weak faith? Wouldn't it be a wiser move that I seek help from those who have stronger faith and who probably don't have much sins as myself?
Thing is, why would I also just rely on the prayers of whoever in my church, when I don't know their sins? What if the Pastor I ask prayers for has some dark secrets (you can google up church scandals for examples), thing is, based on our ignorance and how we look up to whoever is running the church, we will always approach that person for prayers because we believe he is much closer to God. So what more for Saints - these are men and women who passed the test of this life and are now in Heaven; closer to God than ever. So logically, wouldn't their prayers be believed to be stronger?
I don't mind if people can't believe it. I understand that some can find this very superstitious, i just don't understand why you think Satan and his demons have this power of hearing whoever while Angels and Saints can't.
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How does God intercede for us when He is the ultimate receiver of it. Based on your logic, how come people praying for me at my church is an exemption? Why do you need your church mates or people in this board to do this? The point of the Rich man is that he invoked a dead saint (or prophet), and this was a parable by Jesus...
I don't mind if you can't believe the spirits of christians are disconnected from the body; and that you don't agree that even scripture says it. That is fine. But how come you can't believe Angels can intercede? You believe they protect us, they minister to us, and all that.. but they can't pray for us? It just makes no sense that you protestants have applied more power and capabilities towards demons and not with God's own people; when the people and angels are God are only able to do so because of God's power.
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Albion
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First, I do not invoke demons, so the question seems wrong. All sorts of people do invoke the saints, however.
Well, I think the answer is that there is information in the Bible about Satan's doings, whereas there is nothing that suggests we try to enlist the saints in order to obtain divine assistance, or that they are able to act as intermediaries anyway.
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HolyTheophany
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Sorry, but since you completely sidestepped my point, I see no reason to respond to yours.
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