2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

JLB777 · Oct 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm getting quite tired of your games and frequent flip-flops.

Since you now seem to believe that believers during this life possess eternal life, and if a believer then hates his brother loses eternal life, my question to you is this: WHEN does the believer FIRST receive eternal life?

If you don't answer this, there is absolutely no reason to answer any of your questions.

What a bogus comment. I've answered all your questions, or revealed the bogus ones that cannot be answered because of their false premise.

At this point, if you don't answer my question about WHEN a believer FIRST receives eternal life, then there is no reason at all to answer any of your questions.

Comprendo?

Obviously a brother in Christ has eternal life in him, because he is joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

However, the brother who hates his brother no longer has eternal life in him.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

This same John records Jesus on this matter -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how John teaches that we are to remain in Christ, so we will remain joined to Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

I have stated these things many times, only to have you ignore them.

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Oct 30, 2018

JLB777 said:
Obviously a brother in Christ has eternal life in him, because he is joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him.

This doesn't answer my question of WHEN a person receives eternal life. Please be more specific.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

This doesn't even mention eternal life.

Please answer the question of WHEN a believer possesses the gift of eternal life.

However, the brother who hates his brother no longer has eternal life in him.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

I'm not moving forward until you give me an answer as to WHEN a believer possesses the gift of eternal life.

This same John records Jesus on this matter -

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

The key, as I have explained many times already, is found in the word "abide".

We know from v.3 that Jesus considered all of the 11 disciples as saved:
"3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you."

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

I will use color coded words to make my explanation more easy for you to follow.

The red words show reciprocal relationship. Now, does the Bible teach that the believer controls his own salvation? No. Or that the believer can choose to leave it? No.

The blue words are about bearing fruit. That is the main point of this passage.

And since Jesus used a farming metaphor, there is no equivalency to salvation or eternal life. It's about what a farmer does to a branch that isn't productive. It's discarded. And the point is that God won't use believers that are unproductive.

Here is how John teaches that we are to remain in Christ, so we will remain joined to Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

What is clear is that keeping the commandments demonstrates being IN fellowship with the Lord. Also, it's the only way to be productive and bear fruit.

Believers that are not in fellowship with the Lord are OUT of fellowship with the Lord.

I have stated these things many times, only to have you ignore them.

More untruth from your posts. I have engaged your comments every time.

You have been the one to ignore the points of others.

Regarding John 10:28 I even gave you a color coded explanation of the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life, and you ignored it all.

Let's see what you do with my color coded explanation of John 15:4-6.

JLB777 · Oct 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
This doesn't answer my question of WHEN a person receives eternal life. Please be more specific.

When a person is born again, they have the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus joined to their spirit and are now connected to the eternal life that is only found in Christ.

The completion of the process will occur when He comes and we come forth in the resurrection of life.

This occurs at His coming.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2

Luke says it this way -

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35

This is why it’s called the hope of eternal life.

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:5-7

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Oct 30, 2018

JLB777 said:
When a person is born again, they have the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus joined to their spirit and are now connected to the eternal life that is only found in Christ.

OK, finally, an answer. Thanks.

Now that you acknowledge and agree that WHEN a person is born again, which means WHEN they believe in Christ, they receive the gift of eternal life.

So, now that we've pinned that down, why do you persist in your belief that any recipient of eternal life can perish, since Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

So, please explain why you continue to be in direct opposition to the Savior's words.

The completion of the process will occur when He comes and we come forth in the resurrection of life.

I'm not asking about when one enters eternity.

LightLoveHope · Oct 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
How come you don't realize that loving the world would include "walking in faith and love". Obviously not.

It seems you are unaware of how believers out of fellowship live.

Always trying to make comparisons with others. Please stop that.

Hi Free,
I was trying to convey the way you look at the world effects how you view scripture.
Scripture says, if we love the world, we are enemies of God, ie non-believers.

You say if someone shows a coming to faith they are eternally saved even if they walk away, so though they love the world, they are not enemies of God, though scripture declares that they are.

This demonstrates you are blind to your own contradictions and interpretations, where one verse is taken one way, and another another way so you can deny its obvious meaning and substitute a layered interpretation.

This is what one would call subjective interpretation, which we all suffer from. It is a delusion not to recognise everything is subjective. It is God who brings us the truth as everything finds meaning in Him, so being subjective to the Lord is true freedom.

I think the lie we believe from the world that there is a thing as objectivity, and the right to condemn another for the opinions they hold and not their behaviour. The world works on groups and who you know, not what is true care and love for the weak and needy. But then without Jesus working in our hearts what hope is there?

On judgement day the reason why there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, because arguments have ceased and all is laid bare. We stand either in Him and our hearts open and loving or we are lost.

And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Col 3:14

Putting on love seems to be missed by many, though love is the core of who Jesus and God is. Those who deny this do not know Jesus, like a goat trying to be a sheep.

LightLoveHope · Oct 30, 2018

Eternal life has different meanings, depending on ones interpretation.

Eternal life - a thing that makes one an eternal being which can never be changed, that no matter what you do, say or believe destines you to dwell with God.

Eternal life - a promise that if you stay in the faith, you will not perish but dwell with God forever. As a promise, it is dependent on ones walking with Jesus and is not guaranteed without conditions.

God blessed Israel only on condition they obeyed. God judged Nineveh but gave them the option to repent to avoid the punishement due. God hates sin, and only accepts cleansed objects that are purified.

So with this background to interpret eternal life is actually being made eternal contradicts everything else that testifies to who God is and how He works. The new covenant was the fulfillment of the old covenant and was not a new faith or approach, but its final outworking. Love is the fulfilment of the law, because through love we obey the law.

Again it is revealing that those who hold eternal life is becoming an eternal being deny the centrality of the nature of love and God in our walk and spiritual experience.

How one view of eternity dominates love, just amazes me, but then love comes from an open healed heart. On the other side where the desire for eternity and conquering death comes from fear, and a desire for security without resolving the heart and its contradictions is a grave error.

LightLoveHope · Oct 31, 2018

A born again believer, washed, purified, made clean, repentant, humbled, broken, healed, loved, open hearted, loving is a sheep who listen to and follows Jesus the Son of God, our Messiah, the Lord of all, King of Kings, the Word made flesh. And because they are like this, they will live eternally, not seeing decay or perish in the lake of fire.

There is a new type of believer, a sinner immortal believer(SIB).
The key to this group, and the root of their false teaching is the idea they are now immortal, though staying in unrepentant sin, and that is acceptable.

The gospel says we are cleansed sinners made Holy, who are saved from the lake of fire. Within this we are still mortal humans, but with cleansed open hearts in communion with Jesus, and Heirs to the promise as Sons yet to be fulfilled. If we lose this communion, and faith in Jesus, we lose the promise.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 31, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Hi Free,
I was trying to convey the way you look at the world effects how you view scripture.

I have the opposite view of thing. My view of Scripture affects how I look at the world. iow, I have a biblical world view.

Scripture says, if we love the world, we are enemies of God, ie non-believers.

Now you're trying to explain what the Word means. Even believers can be enemies of God. If they love the world. Other than your own opinion, how would you support your claim that being an enemy equals being an unbeliever?

You say if someone shows a coming to faith they are eternally saved even if they walk away, so though they love the world, they are not enemies of God, though scripture declares that they are.

It's quite simple. Everyone who comes to faith in Christ is born again, regenerated, given eternal life. And on that basis alone, shall never perish. Period.

This demonstrates you are blind to your own contradictions and interpretations, where one verse is taken one way, and another another way so you can deny its obvious meaning and substitute a layered interpretation.

It seems you're the one who can't figure out what Scripture says/means.

This is what one would call subjective interpretation, which we all suffer from.

I would say you, more than some, are guilty of subjective interpretation.

It is a delusion not to recognise everything is subjective.

Totally wrong. God's Word is totally objective. But that's your problem. To you, everything IS subjective. And you're fine with that viewpoint. But it's wrong.

God is immutable. That's not subjective, but totally objective.

Your admission here demonstrates WHY your view of Scripture is so skewed.

It is God who brings us the truth as everything finds meaning in Him, so being subjective to the Lord is true freedom.

This sounds more like psycho-babble than truth. God HAS brought us the truth. Truth is God's Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

I think the lie we believe from the world that there is a thing as objectivity, and the right to condemn another for the opinions they hold and not their behaviour.

What you obviously don't understand is that truth is objective, NEVER subjective. You have been deceived by the Great Deceiver. One way he prowls around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour is to deceive them to be subjective.

The world works on groups and who you know, not what is true care and love for the weak and needy. But then without Jesus working in our hearts what hope is there?

It isn't "Jesus working in our hearts" but our learning and applying the truth of the Bible. That requires objectivity.

On judgement day the reason why there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, because arguments have ceased and all is laid bare. We stand either in Him and our hearts open and loving or we are lost.

This indicates that you are ignorant of Judgment Day, totally lost in your subjective feelings. What you need is the objectivity of God's Word to set you straight.

For the believer, "Judgment Day" is called the Bema, or "Judgment Seat of Christ" per 2 Cor 5:10. And this is where eternal reward will be given or forfeited, all based on what the believer has done.

For the unbeliever, "Judgment Day" is called the "Great White Throne Judgment" per Rev 20:11-15. And this is where unbelievers are judged for their deeds/works, and will determine just how "bearable" the lake of fire will be for them in eternity.

How do I know that? Jesus made that clear in a number of verses:
Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24
Luke 10:12, 14

I highly recommend that you read each of these verses and let them really sink in.

The lake of fire will not be the same "temp" for everyone. Not even close. According to Jesus.

And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Col 3:14

Great verse. And has nothing to do with getting or staying saved. It has everything to do with eternal reward.

Putting on love seems to be missed by many, though love is the core of who Jesus and God is. Those who deny this do not know Jesus, like a goat trying to be a sheep.

No, it's exactly like a stupid sheep who doesn't learn.

Maybe you aren't aware, but goats never try to be a sheep. Doesn't happen.

There are people who have been deceived and think they are saved by what they DO toward others and what they FEEL about others. This describes a lot of people in the liberal mainline denominations. They have jettisoned the biblical gospel for the social gospel.

They are all about subjectivity. So much so, they don't believe the Bible is inerrant. Now, that's subjectivity for you.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 31, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Eternal life has different meanings, depending on ones interpretation.

I never depend upon the subjectivity of others. I get my understanding of "eternal life" from the Bible. Alone. I may be slightly amused by the subjective opinions of others, but not really interested.

I am totally interested in what the Bible says about it.

Eternal life - a thing that makes one an eternal being which can never be changed, that no matter what you do, say or believe destines you to dwell with God.

Is this another opinion of yours or someone else, or from a dictionary?

Please identify your sources when making claims.

Eternal life - a promise that if you stay in the faith, you will not perish but dwell with God forever. As a promise, it is dependent on ones walking with Jesus and is not guaranteed without conditions.

The last sentence is unbiblical, and therefore, false. Anyone who reads John 10 :28 KNOWS that there are NO CONDITIONS between receiving the gift of eternal life and never perishing.

So, please STOP pushing the lies of Satan. It is on the sole condition of receiving eternal life that one shall never perish.

God blessed Israel only on condition they obeyed.

And this is unrelated to the issue of salvation.

God judged Nineveh but gave them the option to repent to avoid the punishement due. God hates sin, and only accepts cleansed objects that are purified.

Also irrelevant to the subject of salvation.

So with this background to interpret eternal life is actually being made eternal contradicts everything else that testifies to who God is and how He works.

If you slowly re-read the sentence above, I believe that you will see that it makes no sense.

Again it is revealing that those who hold eternal life is becoming an eternal being deny the centrality of the nature of love and God in our walk and spiritual experience.

What do you mean by "deny the centrality of the nature of love and God"? I have no idea.

How one view of eternity dominates love, just amazes me, but then love comes from an open healed heart.

You really need to get over your subjectivity and focus on the objectivity of how the Bible views eternity.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 31, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
A born again believer, washed, purified, made clean, repentant, humbled, broken, healed, loved, open hearted, loving is a sheep who listen to and follows Jesus the Son of God, our Messiah, the Lord of all, King of Kings, the Word made flesh. And because they are like this, they will live eternally, not seeing decay or perish in the lake of fire.

You're still not believing what Jesus said so plainly in John 10:28. In order to never perish (live eternally with God), it's NOT about being "like this", which is your list of feel good stuff, but receiving the gift of eternal life.

Until you resolve this error in your unfortunately subjective mind, you will never grasp the plan of God.

There is a new type of believer, a sinner immortal believer(SIB).

I prefer to use biblical words. The "new man". being "born again". "Regenerated".

The key to this group, and the root of their false teaching is the idea they are now immortal, though staying in unrepentant sin, and that is acceptable.

As I pointed out before, I care nothing for the ideas and notions of these idiots that you seem unable to detach yourself from.

Sin is NEVER ACCEPTABLE. The Bible is clear on that. Because of Adam's sin, the entire human race is born spiritually dead, headed for the lake of fire.

The ONLY SOLUTION for this spiritual death is to be born again, regenerated, given eternal life and then will never perish. That is accomplished by putting your full trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died for all your sins, and gives the gift of eternal life to those who have believed in Him for it.

And on the single basis of being given the gift of eternal life, that person shall never perish. That is the GOSPEL.

The gospel says we are cleansed sinners made Holy, who are saved from the lake of fire. Within this we are still mortal humans, but with cleansed open hearts in communion with Jesus, and Heirs to the promise as Sons yet to be fulfilled. If we lose this communion, and faith in Jesus, we lose the promise.

You've yet failed to provide ANY verse that supports your last sentence above.

I don't believe you. You have no Scripture that supports your opinion. Just your feely subjectivity.

LightLoveHope · Oct 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
So, please STOP pushing the lies of Satan

"Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." Mark 8:33

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it."
Mark 8:34-35

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him
James 1:2-5

"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me"
Matt 19:21

If you want to be immortal, perfect you must act, walk, follow not just believe.

If immortality was given just by belief Jesus would have told the rich young man just to believe in Him as the atoning sacrifice.

The failure of this logic is the atoning sacrifice is to deal with sin and failure, but it gives no power or guarantee about the future, that relies on the heart and flow of love from within the believer. For the believer who is lost in sin, bound and enslaved, this means death and judgement, because they have no faith and power to deliver themselves from this inevitability. But if they truly believe in the cross and see what it means for Jesus to die and open their hearts to love, then the impossible has just become possible through new birth in the Holy Spirit, Amen.

LightLoveHope · Oct 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
You've yet failed to provide ANY verse that supports your last sentence above.

Let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
Hebrews 10:22-24

See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
Hebrews 3:12-14

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Colossians 3:15-17

LightLoveHope · Oct 31, 2018

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
Philippians 4:7-9

FreeGrace2 · Oct 31, 2018

It's time for some definitions here.

Objectivity is based on facts (truth).
Subjectivity is based on feelings.

Objectivity is what one THINKS.
Subjectivity is what one FEELS.

Those who live their lives based on what they FEEL are doomed to a life of misery.

Those who live their lives based on the facts of Scripture (truth) will be blessed IN SPITE of miserable circumstances. They will have inner peace.

Those who live by their emotions will fall apart when circumstances become miserable.

Why? Because they only have emotions, and no facts on which to stabilize.

LightLoveHope · Oct 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
It's time for some definitions here.

Objectivity is based on facts (truth).
Subjectivity is based on feelings.

Objectivity is what one THINKS.
Subjectivity is what one FEELS.

Those who live their lives based on what they FEEL are doomed to a life of misery.

Those who live their lives based on the facts of Scripture (truth) will be blessed IN SPITE of miserable circumstances. They will have inner peace.

Those who live by their emotions will fall apart when circumstances become miserable.

Why? Because they only have emotions, and no facts on which to stabilize.

Objectivity - this is based on stepping back from a situation and being able to objectify the subject in question. As philosophers have discovered true objectivity is impossible as we always have to make an assumption. But one can obtain relative objectivity if one specifies ones assumptions.

Subjectivity - this admits whatever position one holds it is influenced by assumptions or biases innate within the environment.

In classical discussion subjective is often regard as not being robust, and limited, while an objective position, is regarded as removed so probably an unbiased view.

Unfortunately if you start by saying emotions or anything is involved in one and not the other, you have missed the point. Emotions are merely ways we confirm our position is stable and ok or disturbed and in need of attention.

Free it appears you dislike talking about the heart and cleansing, walking in openness between the Lord and ourselves, so there can be little progress between us.
A closed heart with unresolved issues will always distort the outcomes in Christ. These are facts that lead to freedom, light rather than darkness.

LightLoveHope · Oct 31, 2018

If the world was full of immortal sinners or just sinners, would you be able to tell the difference? No.

And they would claim they are living in heaven with Christ.

I knew a believer who would go from a worship meeting and then to the brothel, to feed his spiritual nature and feed his worldly lusts. And this is a dedicated believer, and if you suggested he was sadly mistaken, the room would turn blue.

This for some is why Jesus came and died, to make believers who had no power to overcome.

But the people of God, follows of Jesus Christ our Saviour know we have overcome the world through His blood, Halleluyah.

This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 5:2-5

FreeGrace2 · Oct 31, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Objectivity - this is based on stepping back from a situation and being able to objectify the subject in question.

Uh, no. Objectivity is clear thinking about facts.

We don't "objectify" anything. We THINK objectively. No feelings needed.

As philosophers have discovered true objectivity is impossible as we always have to make an assumption.

And how does this line up with Scripture? It doesn't. Therefore, we can disregard all such philosophers.

Jesus Christ is the truth. That is objective truth.

But one can obtain relative objectivity if one specifies ones assumptions.

Do you not realize that "relative objectivity" is a contradiction of terms? You need to leave the philosophers alone.

Subjectivity - this admits whatever position one holds it is influenced by assumptions or biases innate within the environment.

Which makes subjectivity a very FAULTY system.

In classical discussion subjective is often regard as not being robust, and limited, while an objective position, is regarded as removed so probably an unbiased view.

This alone demonstrates the superiority of objectivity over subjectivity.

Unfortunately if you start by saying emotions or anything is involved in one and not the other, you have missed the point.

No, I have made the point.

Emotions are merely ways we confirm our position is stable and ok or disturbed and in need of attention.

Since emotions are NOT stable, they cannot "confirm any position as being stable."

Free it appears you dislike talking about the heart and cleansing, walking in openness between the Lord and ourselves, so there can be little progress between us.

Wrong. I dislike using emotions in place of objective truth.

A closed heart with unresolved issues will always distort the outcomes in Christ.

If you're pointing this bit of nonsense towards me, then at least explain yourself.

These are facts that lead to freedom, light rather than darkness.

Again, facts are objective, based on truth. There is absolutely no subjectivity in facts or truth.

Definition of "objectivity" from: Definition of OBJECTIVE

of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind

objective reality

Definition of "subjectivity" from: Definition of SUBJECTIVE

characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind

What we see from this dictionary is that "subjectivity" is only a "perception of reality", rather than as the reality itself.

And, that's the problem with subjectivity. It's only a perception, not the reality.

Objectivity IS the reality of something, and NOT based one anyone's "perception".

FreeGrace2 · Oct 31, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
If the world was full of immortal sinners or just sinners, would you be able to tell the difference? No.

And they would claim they are living in heaven with Christ.

There you go with the "they" people.

I knew a believer who would go from a worship meeting and then to the brothel, to feed his spiritual nature and feed his worldly lusts.

Another example of an idiot. Wouldn't you say?

Why do you keep bothering with bringing up these idiots?

And this is a dedicated believer, and if you suggested he was sadly mistaken, the room would turn blue.

I don't care what color the room is or will be, but this idiot you bring up is NOT a "dedicated believer". He's a CARNAL mess. Out of fellowship, in FULL rebellion against His Lord and Savior, and an enemy of the cross.

LightLoveHope · Oct 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Objectivity IS the reality of something, and NOT based one anyone's "perception".

Everything you experience is actually defined by your mind and nothing else.
It is not possible to experience anything other than through our own senses.
And our senses are filtered by our brains, to create a perception of reality.

This is the world we live in and how we perceive it.
If you cannot accept this framework, then there is little to talk about because this is the truth of our existance.

And if you claim to follow Jesus who is the truth, you should be able to accept the limitations of our perception and how "truth" as we experience it is taken by faith in our perceptions. It is why hallucinations created by ones mind are indistinguishable from the real world by the person experiencing them.

I notice you want to be so definate and complete in your language but you simply do not know what are the actual limitations of how we live and function in this world.

You call people idiots who for whatever reason the Lord rebuked me for judging. I am a judge of no one, He is the Lord. If you have not learnt this limitation on our lives, what have you learnt in Jesus? We are here to be lights in the darkness, to show the hope we have in Christ and the wonder of His work in our lives. Again you seem to not see this, rather you would condemn me as spreading satans lies.

A strange believer you are.

LightLoveHope · Oct 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Uh, no. Objectivity is clear thinking about facts.

Your facts are you are an immortal. If you are immortal, why are you still living here, surely it would be better to be somewhere else? As an immortal can you create things ex-nihilo. I have met guys who claim they can, and go out of body to the 3rd heaven. I mean they have an eternal spirit now so anything is possible, meeting with Moses, Elijah, getting direct revelation from God. I mean, why even listen to scripture if you have the immortal hot line.......... And before you dismiss them, there are no boundaries in Jesus, so you can do anything, give future readings of peoples future because you can tap into the prophetic future, and pass on messages from saints who want to encourage their church brothers and sisters. I have seen these immortal sons of God doing this. This is all the fruit of the gnostic theology.

And no matter how looney they are, God must be with them, because they are saved and can never loose this promise. If you claim they were never saved, how do you know, because your own theology denies you can tell or even exclude these immortal brethren from the Kingdom. To exclude them, would show yourself are an unbeliever, which also is impossible as an immortal. Boy it gets very confusing around here, lol.

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