2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

JLB777 · Oct 28, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
You have not.

It's not mine. It's the Bible's.

Some of your questions are irrational, and not based on facts. So we'll see.

Eternal security doesn't teach anything. So your question is irrational.

Eternal security MEANS that one's behavior does not affect one's salvation.

iow, our security is based on what Jesus does for us. He gives us eternal life.

And on THAT BASIS ALONE, the recipient shall never perish.

If you don't believe that, you do not have truth in you.

If you claim that salvation can be lost, then you ARE a liar.

If there were conditions for possessors of eternal security to meet in order to not perish, Jesus would have listed them in John 10:28 between the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

But He didn't.

Where does this verse say anything about salvation, losing salvation, or how to keep salvation?

There are believers who don't keep His commandments, ARE liars, and have no truth in them. But since they have believed, and possess eternal life, they shall never perish.

And you still haven't provided ANY verses that actually state that salvation or eternal life can be lost. So why believe such an idea when the Bible says nothing about that?

Still no answer to a very simple question.

Can you answer it?

Does eternal security teach that we don’t have to keep His commandments but are still eternally secure?

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

JLB

BNR32FAN · Oct 28, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
There was no orthodox Greek church in the first century and the language used is not spoken today.

Actually there has been an Orthodox Church since the beginning of Christianity. The church in Antioch was first called the Church of God and is mentioned in the Bible by name 22 times. It was the first place where believers were called Christians. Acts 11:26 Then some time between 107AD-180AD the church adopted the name Catholic Church then in 1054AD the church adopted the name Orthodox (meaning traditional) Catholic Church to distinguish them apart from the Roman Catholic Church. It was kind of their way of saying we are the original Catholic Church. The church and it’s teachings have remained the same since the beginning although in the 15th century they had to relocate the church from Turkey to Syria due to the Ottoman invasion. Nowhere throughout the Bible, early church father’s writings, or historical records has the church in Antioch ceased to be the same church that it has always been since the beginning.

Dorothy Mae · Oct 28, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
It is God who created the plan of salvation. And He has given us the measure by which a person is saved. It's called "saving faith".

Where is this measure stated so in the Bible? You need to come up with verses that say that God's plan of salvation is merely and only having a "saving faith." Start by searching for "saving faith" as an item all by itself in the Bible. God has a plan but your understanding of it is not His.

So, let's define it according to Scripture, which is the only way.
John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Jesus said many in that day (not few) will come to me and say "lord lord " (calling him Lord) ...and he will say "depart from me you workers of inquity." How come he did not say "depart from me you who did not have faith?" How come having or not having "saving faith" was not the measure?

He also said "he who endures to the end will be saved"....a future matter.

The problem in your view is that you think you have somehow GOT eternal life now because you believe you do. That fact that you will die means you do not have it now.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

What is eternal life to Jesus? Do you know? And all who jump out of his hand are allowed to leave.

So, saving faith is a faith with 2 aspects.

The first aspect is OBJECT. All faith must have an object; something or someone to believe IN. The OBJECT in saving faith is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah. Per John 20:31.

There is no "saving faith" in the Bible. This is a man theology that assures one that one has arrived or a guarantee of no hell because of a mental agreement one makes. This is judged by admitting that one believes, a circular argument. Real faith that saves means one BEHAVES differently than before which is why Jesus condemned the men who called on the name of the LOrd but were workers of inquity. They did WRONG. Jesus did not condemn them for not having saving faith as he had never taught such a concept. He condemned them for doing wrong.

I think your faith is in your theology that assures you of something you very much want to have.

The second aspect is GOAL OR PURPOSE of that faith. iow, for what reason are we putting our faith (believing in) that Person. The answer is to be saved/delivered/resued from the lake of fire based on the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.

How do we know that salvation refers to hell, or the lake of fire?

Rev 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

What is clear here is that all who have been given eternal life (Jn 10:28) have been written in the book of life. So, on THAT basis, they will NEVER perish, or be thrown into the lake of fire (hell).

So, within these 3 verses: John 20:31, 10:28, Rev 20:15, we have the definition of what "saving faith" is.

Those who believe these 3 verses HAVE saving faith, and HAVE eternal life, and shall NEVER PERISH.

Not a word about loving God or man. Nothing. Just the self being saved from eternal punishment. The whole theology focuses on what the self is supposedly promised.

If they ever had saving faith, the Bible says so.

There is no Bible verse that talks about "saving faith" at all. This is a man theology.

For the believer, it is measured/evaluated at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema) per 2 Cor 5:10, and is the basis for eternal reward (Rev 22:12).

Pretty late. You assume there are only loss of rewards. What if it means one takes part in those who are weeping and gnashing of teeth? You do realize that the measure is not saving faith but deeds, pure and simple. Deeds.

For the unbeliever, it is measured/evaluated at the Great White Throne Judgment per Rev 20:11-15 and is the basis for how "bearable" the lake of fire will be for them.

You do realize that the measure is the deeds done in the body, same as for the believer. Deeds, not faith will be measured. Deeds written down in the books of one's life.

Again, this isn't about what "they once said", but what "they once BELIEVED".

How is this measured is my question. Because this is the problem. OSAS believers measure themselves by what they tell themselves they think. This is not a measure used in the Bible.

And the Bible is clear about who WILL BE CONDEMNED; those who NEVER BELIEVED. 2 Thess 2:12 and John 3:18

Measured by how they lived, not what they told themselves they thought. I know using the "what goes on in my head/heart" ruler is cheap and comfortable, but the Bible clearly says the deeds of our lives are written down and by those deeds we will be measured. Both the believer and unbeliever. That faith better result is changed behaviour or no one sees it as being there.

No it doesn't. But one must reject the verses I've shared to continue to think this way.

Not at all. One simply needs to read the whole of what Jesus taught and not parse out the bits one likes. OSAS believers have to edit out the bits of the Bible that warn them to take care lest they fall away.

Dorothy Mae · Oct 28, 2018

JLB777 said:
Still no answer to a very simple question.

Can you answer it?

Does eternal security teach that we don’t have to keep His commandments but are still eternally secure?

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

JLB

Eternal security teaches that those who hold this do not have to obey any commandments and are still going to Heaven.

Dorothy Mae · Oct 28, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Let's examine the context to determine what one will be saved from.

Matt 24:13 - but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

This verse wasn't written in a vacuum. Here is the context:
The disciples ask Jesus:
v.3 - As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Obviously the Tribulation, which ends this age.

Would be better not to add to the Bible in the discussion. Your escatology is not universally believed. Those are two different questions the disciples are asking. 1. when will the temple be destroyed and 2. What will be the sign of your coming?

But what you are doing is saying that enduring to the end to be saved from death happens to those who do not die which is really silly. Of course those who do not die did not die. That is not saying anything. He was talking to all believers who need to endure believing against the pressures of the pleasures of sin and the troubles of this life including persecution. They need to continue in the faith. The Bible is full of warning/encouraging us to continue in the faith.

v.6 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
v.10 - At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
v.12 - Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
v.13 - but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

What is clear here is the words "the end" refers to the end of the Great Tribulation.

So why do you think the promise that no one can fall away from the faith was suspended for this time period for believers? You believe that true believers cannot fall away from the faith. Jesus said that some definately will and he gave reasons earlier for this. Why was this promise that you believe not true for those guys?

Second, what are they saved from, those who endure to the end? I assume it was from dying which is silly. Do you think those who endured to the end were saved from hell? So that the doctrine of Eternal Security was untrue for them at that time?

Now consider these verses:
v.21 - For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
v.22 - “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

So you really believe that if they managed not to die, they will be saved from dying? You really believe that? Do you realize that the wicked who did not die during the tribulation also were saved from dying? They did not die.

So, the whole context refers to the 7 year period known as the Tribulation. And v.22 makes clear that if those days had continued beyond 7 years, not even the elect would have survived (been saved from the Tribulation).

We find the same statement in Mark 13:13, and guess what?! In that same context, we find the Tribulation. I'll leave that study up to you.

As I said, the interpretation you put on it is really silly. Those who endure to the end and do not die are saved from dying.

Are you kidding? The Tribulation will affect the whole earth. I guess you haven't yet read Revelation.

I did. And Daniel which describes the whole thing. But this is escatology, a different subject. I suspect I know more than you do on the subject.

A little more dramatic than that. being spared the tremendous suffering that leads to physical death during the Tribulation. But I see that you'd rather trivialize the Tribulation, to suit your own opinions.

Ah, the personal attack. Now, enduring means you are GOING THROUGH suffering, not escaping it. Second, physical death is not something any Christians fear. I cannot recall any Bible writer mentioning that believing saves them or anyone from physical death of the body. Those who endure in their faith to the end are saved from hell. Those who fail to endure to the end in their faith, who fall away from the faith as mentioned by Jesus, become unbelievers, not having endured, and are lost. PRetty simple.

Rejection of His grace, that's what.

Scripture that says people reject his grace please.

I see context isn't your "thing". So, let's get some.

Context of the whole of all that Jesus taught is my thing but not yours so I am trying to get you to get some. Move beyond the "God promised me heaven no matter how I behave cause I believe he promised me heaven once and for all."

Matt 7-
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

OK, what is the "will of My Father" from v.21? Believers receiving eternal life.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Why did Jesus condemn them as evilDOERS and not "unbelieving" "evilthinkers?" What you have done is cut and paste the scriptures so that only the THINKING of people is what counts. JEsus says "evil DOERS" and you change that to "unbelivers" as though all GOd wants is for you to have certain mental activities and that is is.

What you do not see is as you think, so you behave which is what we are judged by the deeds (not thoughts) done in the body.

OK, so what that these people, who are standing before the King of Kings and Lord of lords, who is sitting on a Great White Throne (Rev 20), call Him Lord. By now, every knee IS bowing, and probably knocking together uncontrollably. So calling Him Lord has NO connotation of how they EVER thought of Him during their lives.

You really think you know what all the people thought in their lives on this matter?

And v.23 clarifies all doubt. Becuase Jesus tells them, "I NEVER KNEW you", He is saying that they NEVER BELIEVED.

NO, he is not saying that. He is saying that He did not know them. He said they are evil DOERS. He does not mention at all what went on in their heads. You should not change the words JEsus actually says to fit your theology. Since they came to him believing He knew them, they believed. They were assured in their minds of his approval and were assured they were accepted. They were wrong. This is clear. What they believed as to their own salvation was incorrect.

And that is clear anyway from the basis upon which they APPEALED to Him for entering the kingdom: their OWN works, even those done "in His name".

Well, they healed in his name. I mean this is not working at the soup kitchen. They healed people in his name. They prayed for people in the name of JEsus and those people were healed. That was not the problem. THe problem was they otherwise did evil. They were not unbelievers. Unbelievers do not pray in the name of Jesus. But what they believed about their salvation was wrong. THeir behaviour was evil. Jesus said so.

If any of this crowd had EVER believed in Him as Savior, He could NOT have said, "I NEVER KNEW you". That's just not reasonable or possible.

That is not what JEsus said. That is your theology but it is wrong. The interesting part is not that they never knew Jesus. IT is that he never knew them. What they believed about their salvation and their relationship with Jesus was unimportant. What Jesus thought about their relationship was everything. Apparently, what we think our relationship with Jesus is does not seem to matter at all. It is what he thinks it is.

Because He also said that whoever believes HAS (current possession) eternal life (John 5;24 and 6:47).

They believed and did not. You seem to think eternal life is something you got and cannot be ever lost again. Do you know what Jesus said eternal life it? It is not going to Heaven.

Then Jesus said, "I give them (believers) eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

Present tense. Not past tense. You can lose what you have been given.

So, IF any in that crowd in Matt 7 had ever believed, Jesus wouldn't have said "I never knew you" and then rejected them (v.23).

This is the problem. You think that believing once in your life the claims of Christ means Jesus knows you and you know Jesus. This is not just the case. The problem with OSAS is it reduces relationship down to the man believing and God being then obligated without any need for relationship. No OSAS believer has to love God or man or feel obligated to do anything at all but is assured they are going to Heaven no matter how they live. The whole of the scriptures speak against this but OSASers manage to edit out those bits and keep the few lines that promise them Heaven.

No He didn't. That verse is in the context of the Tribulation, as I have just shown.

So either those who did not die in the tribulation but manage to survive are saved from dying. Or alternatively, the doctrine of OSAS is susended for them at that time and they are not saved eternally by a one time decision but they, unfortunately, need to endure to be saved from hell. Endure, by the way, means it is unpleasant or rather torturous and they will be experiencing some. JEsus actually said what to include being killed for being believers. I guess those who are murdered for their faith were not among the lucky ones who survived and so were saved from death.
This is an absurd sentence. What "fruit"? And rejecting "what"?[/quote]OSAS has the fruit of the believer not feeling obligated to love God or man. They are under no commandment whatsoever and assume they are going to Heaven no matter what they do or fail to do.

What 70. Do you actually know any Scripture, or are you just winging it with bits and pieces of verses that you've recalled over the years?

John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Read it. Jesus did not stop a single one of them. He let them all leave. He still does today although naturally the Holy Spirit pursues them same as he pursures unbelievers.

If you actually know verses, please at least cite them so others can understand where your comments are coming from.

Perfectly valid claim and I am glad to do so.

I'm unaware of any "70" jumping in any context, much less "His hand", what ever that refers to.

The "hand" is a metaphor. We are not literally in his hands and even if that were so, the hand is open. We are not in his fist. Jesus taught over and over about those who turn back and warned those who would be his to count the cost. He assured none of them that they were going to Heaven no matter what. He holds us but if we insist on turning back, on shipwreaking our faith, of falling away for the reasons Jesus gave, we are not a prisoner of God.

Your doctrine is the unbiblical one. Paul made clear in Rom 6 and 7 that sin is a choice. And he was writing to believers. We all make choices. But salvation is based on faith in Christ (saving faith). And from that MOMENT, the person shall never perish.

That is an unbiblical position. NO one who wrote the Bible thought that. Paul disciplined his body lest he become disqualified. He did not say he was going to Heaven no matter what.

I have asked OSASers if they are obligated to obey the command to love GOd. Not a one of them said they were. So this is a fruit of that theology. OSAS beleivers do not even think they need to love God.

To force conditions into John 10:28, where NONE exist, is blasphemous and rejects the straightforward words of Jesus. You are not smarter than Jesus. You do not know more than He does.

OSAS excludes the conditions Jesus laid out editing out and changing his teaching to suit the desire to go to Heaven no matter how one behaves towards God and man. This is OSAS theology.

Sure I need to. But not for salvation, which probably shocks you. The command to love is for believers, because unbelievers are incapable of loving God. They don't have the capacity.

NOthing you say shocks me. I have met your kind before. You are thinking more highly of your posts than warranted.

So is loving God and optional extra when it suits you? I mean a command from God Almighty is usually given more than "sure I need to" in priority. What is you do not? Can you please write out that you are obligated to obey the command to love God with all your being, please?

Do you realize that this sentence just SMACKS of works salvation, as if one's behavior determines whether they go to heaven or hell?????

Do you realize that OSAS smacks of evildoers salvation delusion? But you need to believe the Bible instead..."if you love me, you will keep my comandments" and those commandments are not merely to think the right thoughts about your salvation.

Look, everyone is a sinner. Rom 3:9, 23. But only saved sinners will go to heaven.

Ah, so in your thinking is there a difference between your behaviour and that of any unbeliever? Does it matter to God? What is it?

How many sins did Jesus die for on the cross? Your answer will explain a lot.

All the ones that are forgiven.

Dorothy Mae · Oct 29, 2018

JLB777 said:
I’m still waiting for you to explain how a brother can hates his brother and still have eternal life.

You have made every excuses sevin the world, but have posted any scripture that says a brother who hates still has eternal life remaining in him.

JLB

None of the commandments are binding on the OSAS believers in their own minds. They are merely optional extras if they feel like it. My impression is the main focus of OSAS believers is enjoying the promised Heaven. Loving God or love man or becoming like JEsus are optional if it suits them. That is my impression.

LightLoveHope · Oct 29, 2018

Why does a drug addict continue to take the drug?
Because their biology has changed and made them dependant on the drug to just feel normal. The reason they started creating the artificial feeling to mask the inner hurt has not changed, so even when they get free, they return to the addiction very often.

Love is life, life in God, the giving and receiving of good things. It is also the rejection of evil and sin, as destructive and destructive of the relationship. It is a choice made from the point of being cleansed. Peter gives the analogy of going back into a mud pit like a pig or eating vomit. Yes you could do it, by why would you, you would have to be crazy.

Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:22

Money, adulation from the world, power, status, respect, sex are all things that appeal to boost the ego and say you are important, you are cared for, you are secure.

But all these things go when you die. And they often come at a price of broken relationships and trampled people.

These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 2 Peter 2:17

Peter says some of them may have escaped from the corruption of the world, yet have returned to it.

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

Peter is not arguing that these men could not have known Jesus, but they could know Jesus and yet still fall this far. So Peter is of the opinion that in Jesus we have a choice, which is the whole point of the foundation of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Peter is saying this because he knows his own failings and how the Lord did not force anything on him, but rather taught him to have faith through his trials and troubles and know Jesus is still there, to heal, to protect, to bind up, to teach and bring you through if you have faith to return and repent.

LightLoveHope · Oct 29, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
None of the commandments are binding on the OSAS believers in their own minds. They are merely optional extras if they feel like it. My impression is the main focus of OSAS believers is enjoying the promised Heaven. Loving God or love man or becoming like JEsus are optional if it suits them. That is my impression.

Over emphasis. The cultural setting of faith is often important to see how preaching adapts and changes. In the past when life was short and brutal, people snatched away, judgement and getting right with God was a common theme, because that is what people emotionally often felt.

In todays society, financial success and security are desired, while anxiousness over the future here on earth is a common theme. So the preaching now centres on security and being safe, part of the group, rather than sin and getting right with God, which is deemed as condemnation and running oneself down. A more encouraging twist is financial success by projecting ones dreams in faith. And when success comes, it is because of the miracle of God being involved.

It used to be preaching was all about repentance and getting right with God and trusting the cross for salvation. I hear these words quite rarely now, rather open heaven, blessings from on high, super spiritual experiences. Within this context, joining the club, is deemed to be everything, and the fruit irrelevant. One believer put it like this, he would only behave well to make a good impression for Jesus as a witness, but otherwise would carry on as usual.

Another believer said trying to be righteous was a nice goal, but one failure or sin made it pointless. To my mind what they are expressing is a total lack of comprehension of sin and relationship with Jesus. They feel no hurt or remorse or sorrow when they sin, hurt others and themselves. So everything is just a tick box idea, and writing themselves off after every problem or issue. Seeing love growing in their hearts and transforming them so literally the battles and issues change and disappear, or are put into context, does not cross their mind or experience.

This appears to be a heart issue, and layers of defence to make them blind. We need to be aware this is not an argument but a spiritual reality, and only occasionally can we help bring light into the situation.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2018

JLB777 said:
I’m still waiting for you to explain how a brother can hates his brother and still have eternal life.

Well then, please pay attention, because I've explained it to you frequently.

Eternal life is given to those who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, and there are NO (that means zero) verses about losing eternal life.

Pretty simple, actually.

You have made every excuses sevin the world, but have posted any scripture that says a brother who hates still has eternal life remaining in him.
JLB

Your sentence needs work as you put in a non word and I have no idea what your point is.

What you've failed to do is provide any verse that says that eternal life CAN be lost.

I've proven my position with verses that DO SAY what I believe, but you haven't.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2018

JLB777 said:
Still no answer to a very simple question.
Can you answer it?

It seems you're not able to follow my posts. Am I using words that are too big for you? What is it about my posts that you seem to fail to understand?

I'll try and make my posts easier to understand if you just give me some hints.

Does eternal security teach that we don’t have to keep His commandments but are still eternally secure?

As I clearly explained in my previous post, eternal life doesn't "teach" anything. So please quit asking these asinine questions, ok?

Jesus taught eternal security in many places:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Is this verse too complex for you to understand? Jesus taught that whoever hears and believes possesses eternal life and "will not be judged". That's pretty clear.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here we are taught both the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which is just another way to say John 5:24.

So we see that Jesus was consistent in what He taught.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
JLB

And those who claim to be Christians who don't believe, or flatout reject what Jesus teaches are LIARS and the truth is not in them.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Where is this measure stated so in the Bible?

I said:
"It is God who created the plan of salvation. And He has given us the measure by which a person is saved. It's called "saving faith"."

I was responding to a poster who used that word (measure). But if you disagree with my answer, that a person is saved by having saving faith, please explain.

You need to come up with verses that say that God's plan of salvation is merely and only having a "saving faith."

Easily done. But you are required to come up with verses that explicitly say that salvation requires more than "only having a saving faith". Good luck with that one.

But, I have come up verses that speak of both salvation and eternal life:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I hope you counted the # of verses where something more than merely believing was included in how to have salvation or eternal life.

Start by searching for "saving faith" as an item all by itself in the Bible.

Let's not get cute with this "find verses with exact words that I demand" game.

Or I'll play the exact same game with you and demand verses that say exactly that "saving faith requires/demands more than just believing".

Did you notice that I even gave you some leeway. I'll accept either "requires" or "demands". I don't care. But just make sure the verse includes all the other words I've laid out for you.

God has a plan but your understanding of it is not His.

Oh really? Then please enlighten me on what His plan actually is.

Jesus said many in that day (not few) will come to me and say "lord lord " (calling him Lord) ...and he will say "depart from me you workers of inquity." How come he did not say "depart from me you who did not have faith?" How come having or not having "saving faith" was not the measure?

Well, He actually did, but not in your required wording.

When He said, "I never knew you" He certainly was communicating that they NEVER believed in Him for salvation. iow, they NEVER had saving faith in Him.

How could Jesus say that IF any of that crowd had EVER believed in Him? He couldn't. Real simple.

Further, what were they basing their entrance into the kingdom on? Their works. Not His. Another clear clue that they never trusted (believed) in Him.

He also said "he who endures to the end will be saved"....a future matter.

Haven't we already gone through this? This is a specific reference in the context of the 7 year Great Tribulation. It has NO relevance for any other time.

The problem in your view is that you think you have somehow GOT eternal life now because you believe you do.

Wel, you've got that one wrong too. I KNOW I have eternal life NOW because the BIBLE says so. But is that good enough for you? Seems not so much.

However, here are some verses that I based my view on:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (current possession) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
This is not future tense.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have (current possession) eternal life.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
This verse speaks in the past tense of completed action.

So don't tell me that I don't currently possess eternal life. The Bible says I do.

And I believe the Bible, unlike you.

That fact that you will die means you do not have it now.

Is this serious? Of course my physical body will die. But that doesn't mean that I don't have eternal life NOW. But then, one has to REJECT what the Bible says to come up with what you've said here.

What is eternal life to Jesus? Do you know? And all who jump out of his hand are allowed to leave.

Jesus is eternal life Himself.
1 John 5:20 - We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Your comment about people "jumping out of His hand" is just ludicrous and demonstrates your serious lack of spiritual discernment and Bible knowledge.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Consider the red words: "no one". It refers to "no person", at least. Probably includes angelic beings as well.

Now, do you consider yourself to be a "person" or some other kind of undefined being? If you do consider yourself to be a "person", then the verse INCLUDES EVEN YOURSELF as being unable to remove yourself from God's hand.

There is no "saving faith" in the Bible.

This is simply delusional.

Jailer's question to Paul: He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Acts 16:30

Paul's answer in v.31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

What is that, but saving faith?

But if you don't particularly like Paul, let's see what Jesus said about believing:
"Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved." Luke 8:12

Jesus Himself said those who believe are saved.

So your view is in direct opposition to Jesus' own words.

I think your faith is in your theology that assures you of something you very much want to have.

My faith is in what the Word of God says. Which you continue to demonstrate that you do not have any clue as to what it says.

How is this measured is my question. Because this is the problem. OSAS believers measure themselves by what they tell themselves they think. This is not a measure used in the Bible.

I've just proved the opposite by the verses I've shared.

What have you proved from the Bible? Nothing, because you don't bother quoting the Bible. You're more interested in your own opinions (or the opinions of others) than what the Bible says.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Eternal security teaches that those who hold this do not have to obey any commandments and are still going to Heaven.

It would be more honest to explain what else we teach. That those who don't obey the commands are in for a very rough time on earth. It's called divine discipline, noted by Paul in 1 Cor 11:30 and includes even being turned over to Satan for a very painful physical death, per 1 Cor 5:5.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Would be better not to add to the Bible in the discussion.

I will not tolerate your erroneous comments. If I have added to the Bible, you need to show this by quoting what I have said that supports your claim. You're not going to get away with these flippant comments and you don't support with evidence.

What I find strange is that you claim I add to the Bible but you don't even quote the Bible. All the while, I support my points with Scripture that SAYS what I believe.

Your escatology is not universally believed.

Duh. The Bible isn't universally believed. So what? What is your point?

What you do not see is as you think, so you behave which is what we are judged by the deeds (not thoughts) done in the body.

Your sentence is awkward and confusing. But 2 Cor 5:10 SAYS that believers will be judged for what they do.
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

So, you see, your comment is in error.

You really think you know what all the people thought in their lives on this matter?

What makes you say such an absurd thing?

NO, he is not saying that. He is saying that He did not know them. He said they are evil DOERS. He does not mention at all what went on in their heads. You should not change the words JEsus actually says to fit your theology.

Didn't you read the 3 verses? My explanation fits EXACTLY what the verses say.

He said "I NEVER knew you" in v.23. Maybe it would be a good idea for you to actually read the verses that you want to comment on.

Could Jesus say "I NEVER KNEW you" to those who HAD believed in Him? It would be worse than absurd to claim otherwise. So please don't embarrass yourself by making such a claim.

Since they came to him believing He knew them, they believed.

He said He NEVER KNEW them. Please read the Bible before making such errors.

They were assured in their minds of his approval and were assured they were accepted. They were wrong. This is clear.

Of course they were wrong. They NEVER believed in Him for salvation.

What they believed as to their own salvation was incorrect.

No question.

Well, they healed in his name. I mean this is not working at the soup kitchen. They healed people in his name. They prayed for people in the name of JEsus and those people were healed. That was not the problem. THe problem was they otherwise did evil.

Nope. Jesus said He never knew them. But I guess that just isn't sinking into your head. And that's a problem for you.

They were not unbelievers. Unbelievers do not pray in the name of Jesus.

Are you really not aware of religionists? Just look at all the mainline (and very liberal) denominations in this country. They have replaced the real gospel with a "social gospel" of doing good in the hope of getting to heaven. It is a works based system of salvation, no different than the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

But what they believed about their salvation was wrong.

Of course it was. They were banking on what THEY DID for salvation, not on what Jesus for them.

THeir behaviour was evil. Jesus said so.

Do you understand how their behavior was evil? They thought what THEY DID even in Jesus' name would gain the approval of Him and get them in heaven.

The evil was inserting their works in the place of Jesus' work on their behalf. That is blasphemous and evil.

That is not what JEsus said.

I seems you do not even know what Jesus said.

That is your theology but it is wrong.

For one who doesn't even know what Jesus said, this is funny.

The interesting part is not that they never knew Jesus. IT is that he never knew them.

That has been my whole point, which PROVES that they NEVER believed in Him.

Present tense. Not past tense. You can lose what you have been given.

Then go ahead and prove your claim with verses that SAY that eteranl life can be lost.

This is the problem. You think that believing once in your life the claims of Christ means Jesus knows you and you know Jesus.

The Bible SAYS that those who believe HAVE (that means possession) of eternal life.

Why don't you believe what the Bible says?

I have asked OSASers if they are obligated to obey the command to love GOd. Not a one of them said they were. So this is a fruit of that theology. OSAS beleivers do not even think they need to love God.

Maybe just the idiots that you surveyed think that.

Believers are commanded to love God and obey Jesus. Got it?

Jesus taught eternal security in John 5:24 and 10:28 very clearly, whether you are capable of comprehending that or not. I can't help what you can't comprehend.

OSAS excludes the conditions Jesus laid out editing out and changing his teaching to suit the desire to go to Heaven no matter how one behaves towards God and man. This is OSAS theology.

This is just nonsense.

Do you realize that OSAS smacks of evildoers salvation delusion? But you need to believe the Bible instead

Oh, this is rich! A disbeliever in the Bible telling me to believe the Bible. lol

Dorothy Mae · Oct 29, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
It seems you're not able to follow my posts. Am I using words that are too big for you? What is it about my posts that you seem to fail to understand?

I'll try and make my posts easier to understand if you just give me some hints.

As I clearly explained in my previous post, eternal life doesn't "teach" anything. So please quit asking these asinine questions, ok?

Jesus taught eternal security in many places:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Is this verse too complex for you to understand? Jesus taught that whoever hears and believes possesses eternal life and "will not be judged". That's pretty clear.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here we are taught both the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which is just another way to say John 5:24.

So we see that Jesus was consistent in what He taught.

And those who claim to be Christians who don't believe, or flatout reject what Jesus teaches are LIARS and the truth is not in them.

Your post is quite rude and personally insulting. This is very very common in OSAS believers. The reason is easy to see. They acknowledge no commandments as binding on them. And they believe they’re going to Heaven no matter how they treat others. Ergo, they are free to do whatever.

Loren T. · Oct 29, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
otoh, why don't you just realize that there is NOTHING that the believer can do to UN-do the work of God in saving us?

Seriously, read Galations without imposing your once saved always saved biase on it.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Your post is quite rude and personally insulting.

No, I am direct and straight forward. Your views are unbiblical, which I have shown. And you don't quote any Scripture that supports your claims.

This is very very common in OSAS believers. The reason is easy to see. They acknowledge no commandments as binding on them.

I've already dispelled that myth. So you can cease any time.

And they believe they’re going to Heaven no matter how they treat others.

Please provide any verse that says that going to heaven depends on how one treats others. That's a new one to me.

Ergo, they are free to do whatever.

Are you not aware that everyone is free to do whatever? That's basically what Paul said in Romans 6. We choose which master we obey. But we're supposed to choose the right one.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2018

I said:
"otoh, why don't you just realize that there is NOTHING that the believer can do to UN-do the work of God in saving us?"

Loren T. said:
Seriously, read Galations without imposing your once saved always saved biase on it.

Seriously, please provide the specific verse or verses in Galatians that teach that salvation can be lost, since that is how I take your post.

And, btw, my "bias" about eternal security comes directly from the words of Jesus, who said "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

I'm going to color code my explanation to make this real clear for you.

The red words represent the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, which is Jesus Himself

The blue words represent the EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which is to never perish.

Did you notice that Jesus put NO CONDITIONS between the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life?

That means there are NO CONDITIONS that recipients of eternal life must meet in order to not perish.

Therefore, simply on the basis of receiving eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

How do you propose to refute my points about John 10:28?

LightLoveHope · Oct 29, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Please provide any verse that says that going to heaven depends on how one treats others. That's a new one to me.

Unfortunately I do not believe that a verse saying staying in sin stops you from heaven has not been presented to you.

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart
Matt 18:35

But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Matt 7:26-27

But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins
Matthew 6:15

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
Matt 16:25

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 9:26

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 12:25

The interesting thing about Jesus is He speaks about how He will react. These are warnings, because when you stray into a dangerous area, you could be on the right side or you could be on the wrong side. Jesus is saying stay away from these areas all together.

So if you are unforgiving, a hypocrite, ashamed of Christs words, loving life in this world, you are endangering ones soul and possibly not a believer at all.

I watched a video about a man who claimed to be religious. What he was was a fanatic with no real piety but he wanted to be a hero. It is easy to be something that ones behaviour does not match but you feel so strongly about it, you ignore what you are actually doing, and imagine you are something that simply does not exist.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 29, 2018

I said:
"Please provide any verse that says that going to heaven depends on how one treats others. That's a new one to me."

LightLoveHope said:
Unfortunately I do not believe that a verse saying staying in sin stops you from heaven has not been presented to you.

This sentence has a double negative in it and I can't unwrap it.

It seems you're saying that you don't believe that a verse has not been presented to me.

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart
Matt 18:35

How does this relate to losing salvation, or gaining salvation? There is nothing here about salvation.

But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
Matt 7:26-27

Again, there are no words here about salvation, or entering heaven.

But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins
Matthew 6:15

And this somehow speaks of how to get into heaven???

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:20

Ditto

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
Matt 16:25

This has nothing to do with treating others. And nothing about salvation.

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 9:26

Where are the words "will not enter heaven" in this verse? There is no doubt that the Lord will be ashamed of many believers who weren't obedient and will not be rewarded in eternity. But there's nothing about how not to get into heaven.

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 12:25

So, you think "hating your own life' will get into heaven? There's lots of people in the 3rd world countries who hate their life. Does that get them into heaven?

The interesting thing about Jesus is He speaks about how He will react.

That's what I have noticed as well. To those who believe in Him for salvation, He gives them the free gift of eternal life. And then He states in the clearest of language that they shall never perish.

These are warnings, because when you stray into a dangerous area, you could be on the right side or you could be on the wrong side. Jesus is saying stay away from these areas all together.

Yes, of course He warns against rebellion and disobedience. But nowhere does He say that salvation can be lost. John 10:28 doesn't permit such a thought.

So if you are unforgiving, a hypocrite, ashamed of Christs words, loving life in this world, you are endangering ones soul and possibly not a believer at all.

No, the verses are clear. Such a person is in real danger of God's discipline, which is painful (Heb 12:11). Just note the progression of His discipline in 1 Cor 11:30.

I watched a video about a man who claimed to be religious. What he was was a fanatic with no real piety but he wanted to be a hero. It is easy to be something that ones behaviour does not match but you feel so strongly about it, you ignore what you are actually doing, and imagine you are something that simply does not exist.

What does this have to do with our discussion? I see no relevance.

LightLoveHope · Oct 30, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
How does this relate to losing salvation, or gaining salvation? There is nothing here about salvation.

This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart
Matt 18:35

The parable of the merciful King, is about the King forgiving a debt of the servant, and the servant not forgiving a servant who owed him some money.

The theme is we rely on God to forgive our sin, though we are worthy, and it is a gift of mercy. If our sin is not forgiven, and we have to pay back the debt we owe, this is the lake of fire. And there is no way out of this.

But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins
Matthew 6:15

Again the above verse emphasises the same point. Forgiveness of our sins is conditional on our forgiving others. I have communicated with believers who hate this connection, as if Jesus is not plain as to His feelings and approach. It is in centring our hearts through forgiveness that we begin to know the meaning of purity, holiness and walking in love.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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