WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

~Zao~ · Oct 28, 2018

Works are done on the inside. I think that's where the confusion comes in.

Saint Steven · Oct 28, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hmm not really Steve, where have I posted anywhere in this thread or forum that we are saved by the law? If I have posted no such thing or believe no such thing why try and make claims here that I have?

I only wish you all love joy and peace in the Holy Spirit brother. Perhaps we should agree to disagree.

You should be honest with yourself.

You claim that sin is a transgression of the law.

The TCs are the law to you.

You claim that no one living in known unrepentant sin can be saved.
Therefore, you are claiming that we are ONLY saved by adherence to the law.
How can you deny what is as plain as day?

LoveGodsWord · Oct 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
You should be honest with yourself. You claim that sin is a transgression of the law.
The TCs are the law to you. You claim that no one living in known unrepentant sin can be saved. Therefore, you are claiming that we are ONLY saved by adherence to the law. How can you deny what is as plain as day?

Sorry Steve, nothing you have stated in your post is what I am saying to you whatsoever.

It is God's WORD alone that says; none who continue living a life of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are in a saved state before God not me. These are God's WORDS not mine. The scriptures also say that those who live in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN do not know God because their faith is dead {no fruit} and they are still in their sins and need to seek God in repentance and forgiveness *ACTS 2:38; 1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:13; JAMES 2:18-20; 26.

If you are still in your sins you are rejecting the gift of God's dear son *HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 6:23. Yep many are going to be disappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:13-23.

The fruit of faith is OBEDIENCE to God's WORD. We all need to be born again to LOVE and follow God because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's WORD in all those who have Faith *ROMANS 13:8-10. If your faith does not have the fruit of LOVE you need to be Born again to receive the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12

LOVE is the work of God in us. It is not our work. We cannot love unless we are born again to love. We need a new heart. This is the NEW COVENANT PROMISE and the operation of God in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. *HEBREWS 8:10-12; JOHN 3:3; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 THESSALONIANS 2:13; JOHN 5:42

Hope this helps

Danthemailman · Oct 28, 2018

EmSw said:
Tell us about the salvation Jesus gave through His own words.

Sure, in John 3:14-18, we read - "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Also see what Jesus said in John 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26.

You might want to start with the sheep and goats and the reason the sheep went into eternal life. You might want to start with verse 34 of Matthew 25. He specifically gives the reasons they inherited the kingdom.

You only seem interested in verses that "on the surface" appear to teach salvation by works, which explains a lot!

After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet all Scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of Scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of Scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works as you suppose. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc...

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are works that were done in righteousness and will be manifest in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because the righteousness of God has been imputed to them (Romans 4:2-6). In verse 37 Jesus says, "Then the righteous will answer Him.. They have been accounted as righteous through faith. They are believers who have the righteousness of God (Philippians 3:9). It is the righteous, the believers, who do the good works. It isn't doing the good works that made them righteous, but the good works were produced "out of" faith and a righteous standing before God. :oldthumbsup:

When works are mentioned in association with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition or means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a "manifestation of one's faith" (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow. So it is understandable that in this context, the works stressed in Matthew 25 are a "manifestation of faith" and we receive eternal life through faith, not works, yet we show our faith by our works (James 2:18).

The works of unbelievers are not works done in righteousness (without faith it's impossible to please God) and are all stained with sin, no matter how many religious works that unbelievers attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive eternal life based on the merits of their works, as these many people in Matthew 7:22 will find out the hard way on judgment day. (Matthew 7:23)

Saint Steven · Oct 28, 2018

Danthemailman said:
I never said established faith "of the nations" and following Peter's vision, Peter was simply making the point that God shows no partiality and in every nation "whoever" (individuals) from every nation (whether Jew or Gentile) who fear Him and work righteousness are accepted by Him. The NASB says - but in every nation the "man" who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Yet sadly, that's what many people who may even be "religious" but are not right with God set out to do. (Matthew 7:22-23)

The one who works righteousness (Literally, of works which are done in righteousness) because of love to Jesus and for righteousness' sake is descriptive of someone who is already saved (1 John 3:7; 4:7; 5:1).

Lost unbelievers do not work righteousness (produce works done in righteousness) and are also not accepted by God. In contrast, those who have been justified by faith have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus. I just don't believe your biased interpretation of these passages of Scripture and NO, those words do not offend me. Only the "misapplication" of those words which results in teaching salvation by works offends me.

In Matthew 19, Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of even keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.

The rich young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell as he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we obtain eternal life, then why isn't this the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet that's not what Paul said. Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Believing/trusting in your best efforts to keep the commandments as the meritorious means of receiving eternal life is not believing/trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, but is believing/trusting in WORKS for salvation.

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and has responded to individuals in the Bible a little differently because He knows where their need is. Jesus didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young man in the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in Scripture is salvation through faith, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

That's good.
I think the statement of Jesus to the Rich Young Man is rhetorical.
Only Matthew's gospel says "keep the commandments". Mark and Luke relate the story differently. The commandment-keeping man asks what he still lacks. The law is not enough. And the reference is to the WHOLE law, not just the TCs. The commandment "you shall not defraud" (Leviticus 19:13) is found outside the Ten. The last sentence is the bottom line answer. "... come, follow me.", Jesus said.

Mark 10:17-19
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

Matthew 19:20-21
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Saint Steven · Oct 28, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Sorry Steve, nothing you have stated in your post is what I am saying to you whatsoever.

It is God's WORD alone that says; none who continue living a life of KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are in a saved state before God not me. These are God's WORDS not mine. The scritures also say that those who live in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN do not know God because their faith is dead {no fruit} and they are still in their sins and need to seek God in repentance and forgiveness *ACTS 2:38; 1 JOHN 1:9; PROVERBS 28:13; JAMES 2:18-20; 26.

If you are still in your sins you are rejecting the gift of God's dear son *HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 6:23. Yep many are going to be disappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:13-23.

The fruit of faith is OBEDIENCE to God's WORD. We all need to be born again to LOVE and follow God because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's WORD in all those who have Faith *ROMANS 13:8-10. If your faith does not have the fruit of LOVE you need to be Born again to receive the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12

LOVE is the work of God in us. It is not our work. We cannot love unless we are born again to love. We need a new heart. This is the NEW COVENANT PROMISE and the operation of God in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. *HEBREWS 8:10-12; JOHN 3:3; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 THESSALONIANS 2:13; JOHN 5:42

Hope this helps

You CANNOT claim that you are not saying we are saved by works when you say that it is God doing the works not us. That is still salvation by works, not grace.

What happens if we do not do the works God wants to do through us?

You need to be honest with yourself.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
You CANNOT claim that you are not saying we are saved by works when you say that it is God doing the works not us. That is still salvation by works, not grace.

What happens if we do not do the works God wants to do through us?

You need to be honest with yourself.

If you have God's WORD to share than share it. If you have not your only speaking your own words and saying things no one has said to you.

The fruit of faith is OBEDIENCE to God's WORD. We all need to be born again to LOVE and follow God because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's WORD in all those who have Faith *ROMANS 13:8-10. If your faith does not have the fruit of LOVE you need to be Born again to receive the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12

LOVE is the work of God in us. It is not our work. We cannot love unless we are born again to love. We need a new heart. This is the NEW COVENANT PROMISE and the operation of God in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. *HEBREWS 8:10-12; JOHN 3:3; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 THESSALONIANS 2:13; JOHN 5:42

If you are still in your sins you are rejecting the gift of God's dear son *HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 6:23.

Yep the scriptures say that many are going to be disappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:13-23.

Hope this helps

Saint Steven · Oct 28, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
If you have God's WORD to share than share it. If you have not your only speaking your own words and saying things no one has said to you.

The fruit of faith is OBEDIENCE to God's WORD. We all need to be born again to LOVE and follow God because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's WORD in all those who have Faith *ROMANS 13:8-10. If your faith does not have the fruit of LOVE you need to be Born again to receive the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12

LOVE is the work of God in us. It is not our work. We cannot love unless we are born again to love. We need a new heart. This is the NEW COVENANT PROMISE and the operation of God in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. *HEBREWS 8:10-12; JOHN 3:3; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 THESSALONIANS 2:13; JOHN 5:42

If you are still in your sins you are rejecting the gift of God's dear son *HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 6:23.

Yep the scriptures say that many are going to be disappointed come judgment day *MATTHEW 7:13-23.

Hope this helps

Works are the result of salvation, not the prerequisite. We were made alive in Christ while we were DEAD IN OUR TRANSGRESSIONS. Where is the works in that?

You need to be honest with yourself.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Works are the result of salvation, not the prerequisite. We were made alive in Christ while we were DEAD IN OUR TRANSGRESSIONS. Where is the works in that?

You need to be honest with yourself.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Read what was posted to you. Nothing you have said in your posts relates to anything that was posted to you or what was said to you. Please do not pretend I am saying things to you that I am not.

We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8.

If our faith however, does not have the fruit of OBEDIENCE to God's WORD than we are still in our sins and need to be born again and seek God's forgivness because we have rejected the gift *ROMANS 1:5; JAMES 2:18-20; 26; ROMANS 6:23; PROVERBS 28:13; 1 JOHN 1:9; 2:1

If anyone is still in their sins they are rejecting the gift of God's dear son and do not know him *HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 6:23.

Do you have any scriptures to share and would you like to address any of my posts to you?

EmSw · Oct 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Then you are claiming salvation by works.

That's two of you. Anyone else want to join the club?

And just what will your evil works get you?

EmSw · Oct 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Then you are claiming salvation by works.

That's two of you. Anyone else want to join the club?

No comment on Hebrews 5:9?

EmSw · Oct 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
EmSw is definitely saying that. And so are you. Even though you are working hard to conceal it. (it's a cover-up) Why won't you admit it?

Unfortunately, it seems you know very little of what John wrote.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If you don't want to keep His commandments, or works as you call them, will you admit you have no truth in you? And John says you're a liar.

EmSw · Oct 28, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Then you are claiming salvation by works.

That's two of you. Anyone else want to join the club?

Did you even read the passages I provided? Probably not, you don't want the truth to get in your way.

EmSw · Oct 28, 2018

Danthemailman said:
I never said established faith "of the nations" and following Peter's vision, Peter was simply making the point that God shows no partiality and in every nation "whoever" (individuals) from every nation (whether Jew or Gentile) who fear Him and work righteousness are accepted by Him. The NASB says - but in every nation the "man" who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

First you say you never said 'established faith of the nations', and then turn right around and say 'in every nation "whoever" (individuals) from every nation (whether Jew or Gentile) who fear Him and work righteousness are accepted by Him'.

If it's not the nations, then who is it?

Now I ask you, is a person who does not fear God and does not do what is right, welcomed to God, per the NASB?

Danthemailman said:
Yet sadly, that's what many people who may even be "religious" but are not right with God set out to do. (Matthew 7:22-23)

The one who works righteousness (Literally, of works which are done in righteousness) because of love to Jesus and for righteousness' sake is descriptive of someone who is already saved (1 John 3:7; 4:7; 5:1).

If a person does not do the works of righteousness, is he saved?

Danthemailman said:
Lost unbelievers do not work righteousness (produce works done in righteousness) and are also not accepted by God. In contrast, those who have been justified by faith have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What about believers who do not produce works done in righteousness? How are they accepted?

Danthemailman said:
I believe Jesus. I just don't believe your biased interpretation of these passages of Scripture and NO, those words do not offend me. Only the "misapplication" of those words which results in teaching salvation by works offends me.

Do you really believe Jesus? Here is what He said -

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

This is not my biased interpretation; these are the actual words of the Savior. How will you spin these words to your satisfaction?

Danthemailman said:
In Matthew 19, Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of even keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.

Jesus said nothing of falling short; you and others add this. Please don't do that.

Jesus said also said nothing of an 'idolatrous god'. This is something else you made up. You have just broken your own rule of 'biased interpretation'. And you believe your 'biased interpretation'.

Danthemailman said:
The rich young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell as he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we obtain eternal life, then why isn't this the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet that's not what Paul said. Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

He didn't miss the point at all. Jesus did not say 'if you want to enter life, place your faith in Me'. Another 'biased interpretation' of yours. Why can't people actually read and believe what Jesus said? He said, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'. Why do you not believe this and want to change it to what you want?

Danthemailman said:
Believing/trusting in your best efforts to keep the commandments as the meritorious means of receiving eternal life is not believing/trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, but is believing/trusting in WORKS for salvation.

Then you don't believe Jesus' words. This is what all this boils down to, people don't like what Jesus said, and want things their own way. Your words above contradict what Jesus said, and you have no problem with that.

'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'

Danthemailman said:
Jesus knows the hearts of all men and has responded to individuals in the Bible a little differently because He knows where their need is. Jesus didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young man in the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in Scripture is salvation through faith, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Why not give passages in which Jesus spoke?

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Can a man be saved who doesn't love Jesus?

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Can a man be saved who doesn't know Jesus?
Can a man be saved who is a liar?
Can a man be saved if there is no truth in him?

Saint Steven · Oct 28, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Read what was posted to you. Nothing you have said in your posts relates to anything that was posted to you or what was said to you. Please do not pretend I am saying things to you that I am not.

We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8.

If our faith however, does not have the fruit of OBEDIENCE to God's WORD than we are still in our sins and need to be born again and seek God's forgivness because we have rejected the gift *ROMANS 1:5; JAMES 2:18-20; 26; ROMANS 6:23; PROVERBS 28:13; 1 JOHN 1:9; 2:1

If anyone is still in their sins they are rejecting the gift of God's dear son and do not know him *HEBREWS 10:26-27; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 6:23.

Do you have any scriptures to share and would you like to address any of my posts to you?

How do you define faith? (in the context of this post)

FreeinChrist · Oct 28, 2018

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for review and cool down.

The personal comments each way need to stop. Rating posts in order to goad or mock is not okay.

St. Helens · Oct 28, 2018

MOD HAT ON

This thread is being permanently locked due to persistent issues with personal attack and misuse of the rating system to harass on both sides.
MOD HAT OFF

WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

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