The Preterist Forum
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Pastor Dave R
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I disagree and I think this is the biggest failing of Preterists today! Compromise.
The word comes from the Latin, "praeter", which means "past", or "in the past". It does not include in its definition, "but some in the future".
Preterists are big on the actual meanings of words. So, when you say to someone that something's "in the past", do you mean, "but some of it in the future"?
There is no such thing as a "Partial Preterist". That's a contradiction in terms. Any "future" fulfillment would mean multiple returns of Jesus, to have a yet future one. Does that sound like Preterism to you?
What they actually are, is "Mild Futurists".
My advice is to stop compromising to try to "get along" and make everyone happy. Do you see Futurists compromising their beliefs for you?
Futurists of any form are NEVER going to be okay with your beliefs! Get over that and move on!
Preterists believe that while the results of the fulfillment of some prophecies is ongoing (salvation available today, etc.), ALL prophecy has been fulfilled, period. There cannot be any compromise of that and anyone who believes that any prophecies have yet to be fulfilled, is a Futurist.
Preterist = Past
Futurist = Future
I'm not trying to be rude. Just direct.
All of these labels (full, hyper, etc.) were created by Futurists (those includes Partial Preterists) to confuse and to get Preterists to look down on other Preterists.
"Oh yea, I'm a Preterist, but not one of those 'hypers'!", he says, wanting everyone to like him.
If you believe that Jesus has yet to return, or has yet to return because he returns more than once, then you ARE a Futurist. It's THAT simple.
God Bless!
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Wow... I totally forgot about this 4 year old thread.
You must've been diggin deep down the rabbit hole to drum this one up!
So you don't believe ANY prophesy was fulfiled in the past then?
Are you a futurist?
If so does that mean you don't believe ANY prophesy was fulfilled in the past?
Future means Future after all, it does not include in it's definition "but some of it is in the past", right?
So, conversely, there is no such thing as a Futurist who believes ANY prophesy was fulfilled in the past, correct?
I like that.
Well, I sure don't see any unanimity among futurst's beliefs... Ya'll constantly argue about pre trib - mid trib - post trib, raputure, no rapture, dispensations , no dispensations, millennium, no millennium, cessation, no cessation, OSAS, No OSAS, etc, etc... How could I know if a futurist is compromising his beliefs when their beliefs are so discombobulated and all over the map to begin with?
Futurists of any form are NEVER going to be okay with your beliefs! Get over that and move on!
Get over what? I could care less if a futurist is or is not ok with what I believe.
Is that what drives you? do you need "atta boys" from the rest of us for your beliefs?
You might want to bone up on preterism, because I can tell you that statement is flat out false.
Well, your ignorance if Preterism is glaring, whether or not it's Rude or Direct.
If you believe that Jesus has yet to return, or has yet to return because he returns more than once, then you ARE a Futurist. It's THAT simple.
God Bless!
That is the glass half full argument... or is it half empty?
When do you say Matthew 21:33-45 was fulfilled? Or do you believe it is yet future?
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Um, orthodox preterism (eg, partial preterism) does not rule out the possibility of a dual fulfillment in the future. It simply does not require fulfillment in the future of certain things in order for the terms of the prophecy to have been satisfied.
It sounds like partial preterism.
Oh yay, just what we needed, new jargon somebody pulled out of his... hat.
Our Lord has not returned yet. That fact does not invalidate partial preterism as an interpretive model of biblical prophecy.
Be that as it may (and frankly I'm too lazy to research it), the labels are nevertheless helpful in terms of describing the beliefs to which people adhere. There is value in them.
I'll settle for them understanding that I'm not a heretic.
The post to which you're replying suggested that everyone is a preterist; it's only a matter of degree.If you believe that Jesus has yet to return, or has yet to return because he returns more than once, then you ARE a Futurist. It's THAT simple.
Your brilliant rejoinder to that was saying (with some validity) that everyone is a futurist; it's only a matter of degree.
In sum, it appears that your primary objection is due to technical terms. You apparently oppose useful technical terms which describe a set of beliefs and favor vague, less specific language. Because reasons.
Forgive me if I don't think this contributes much to the conversation.
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Your own personal tendencies toward biblical preterism are hardly something to hide from or be ashamed of riverrat.
Jesus loves you regardless. The rest of us do too.
Wrong. Threads are typically started by, and hijacked by unorthodox chiliasts of premillennial and dispensational stripes. This forum is for the orthodoxy, which includes the partial preterist.
I'm Amillenial - the balanced view between Futurism and Preterism.
Futurist = DELUSION.
There, we should be even now.
This looks like a fun thread! How did I ever miss it!Oogy = icky, weird, just like not gnarly man.
Spirit filled orthodox Preterist here.
[Prayerfully, and with God's blessing, later to be full preterist.....but just not yet ]
Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.
Luke 4:
16 Then Jesus came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up.
As was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and when He stood up to read, 17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath/ ὀργῆς<3709> to come?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> to come?
"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation
Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance/ekdikhsewV <1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written .
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.
Luke 23:
29 “For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’
30 “Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’[fn]
Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks:
'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of the One-sitting upon the Throne,
and from the wrath<3709> of the Lambkin<721>
721. arnion ar-nee'-on diminutive from 704; a lambkin:--lamb
.
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Berean Tim
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My pastor is a preterist. So I've been studying. Can't get past this passage.This looks like a fun thread! How did I ever miss it!
Spirit filled orthodox Preterist here.
[Prayerfully, and with God's blessing, later to be full preterist.....but just not yet ]
Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.
Luke 4:
16 Then Jesus came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up.
As was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and when He stood up to read, 17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
21 and He began by saying,
“Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath/ ὀργῆς<3709> to come?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> to come?
"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation
Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance/ekdikhsewV <1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written .
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.
Luke 23:
29 “For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’
30 “Then they will begin ‘to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’[fn]
Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks:
'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of the One-sitting upon the Throne,
and from the wrath<3709> of the Lambkin<721>
721. arnion ar-nee'-on diminutive from 704; a lambkin:--lamb
.
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25“Behold, I have told you in advance. 26“So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27“For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28“Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Jesus is saying if your told he's already come , don't believe them. There will be no question about it
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Interesting post.I disagree and I think this is the biggest failing of Preterists today! Compromise.
The word comes from the Latin, "praeter", which means "past", or "in the past". It does not include in its definition, "but some in the future".
Preterists are big on the actual meanings of words. So, when you say to someone that something's "in the past", do you mean, "but some of it in the future"?
There is no such thing as a "Partial Preterist". That's a contradiction in terms. Any "future" fulfillment would mean multiple returns of Jesus, to have a yet future one. Does that sound like Preterism to you?
What they actually are, is "Mild Futurists".
My advice is to stop compromising to try to "get along" and make everyone happy. Do you see Futurists compromising their beliefs for you?
Futurists of any form are NEVER going to be okay with your beliefs! Get over that and move on!
Preterists believe that while the results of the fulfillment of some prophecies is ongoing (salvation available today, etc.), ALL prophecy has been fulfilled, period. There cannot be any compromise of that and anyone who believes that any prophecies have yet to be fulfilled, is a Futurist.
Preterist = Past
Futurist = Future
I'm not trying to be rude. Just direct.
All of these labels (full, hyper, etc.) were created by Futurists (those includes Partial Preterists) to confuse and to get Preterists to look down on other Preterists.
"Oh yea, I'm a Preterist, but not one of those 'hypers'!", he says, wanting everyone to like him.
If you believe that Jesus has yet to return, or has yet to return because he returns more than once, then you ARE a Futurist. It's THAT simple.
God Bless!
I would say Jesus and the Apostles and all Jews pre 70ad were futurists:
Matthew 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 “See! Your house is left to you desolate/a wilderness<2048>;
Luke 13:
34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
35 “See! Your house is left to you desolate/a wilderness<2048>;
2048. eremos of uncertain affinity;
lonesome, i.e. (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, 5561 being implied):--desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.
#2049 used in just 5 verses of the NT:
Matthew 12:25
But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation<2049>, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Luke 11:17
But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation<2049>, and a house divided against a house falls<4098>.
Then after the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70ad as prophecied, the Jews became Preterists
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Revelation 17:16
“And the ten horns which you saw on[fn] the beast, these will hate the Harlot, make her desolate<2049> and naked, eat Her flesh and burn Her with fire.
Revelation 18:
17 ‘For in one hour such great riches came to nothing<2048>.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance
19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by Her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.’
2049. eremoo er-ay-mo'-o from 2048; to lay waste (literally or figuratively):--(bring to, make) desolate(-ion), come to nought.
Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
Strong's Number G2049 occurs 5 times in 5 verses
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The word "preterist" does not mean the same thing to all people.
Christ was clearly a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse.
It contains events fulfilled in 70 AD, and also contains events related to the future Second Coming of Christ.
................................................................
Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:
Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)
Luk 21:5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,
Luk 21:6 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."
(Mat 24:2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )
Luk 21:7 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"
(Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")
( Mar 13:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,
Mar 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")
Luk 21:8 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.
(Mat 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )
Luk 21:9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."
(Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)
Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution
Luk 21:10 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
(Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )
Luk 21:11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
(Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )
Luk 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
(Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)
Luk 21:13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.
Luk 21:14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;
Luk 21:15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
Luk 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
Luk 21:17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
(Mat 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )
Luk 21:18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.
Luk 21:19 By your patience possess your souls.
(Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)
Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (See also Luke 19:41-44)
(Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
(Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)
Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
(Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! ) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. Paul also spoke of this time period in Romans 11. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)
The Coming of the Son of Man
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
(Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
(Mat 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7
"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].
7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "
Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.
John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.
The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.
Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Print out a copy of the above and give it to your pastor.
If he gets upset, you can blame me.
.
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Good post. I was actually inspired to do a harmonization of the Temple/Jerusalem discourses, using the Greek. Here is a link for those interested:Christ was clearly a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse.
It contains events fulfilled in 70 AD, and also contains events related to the future Second Coming of Christ.
The Coming of the Son of Man
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory
(Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)
Harmonization of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Revelation and Josephus
And the controversy concerning Luke's Temple discourse and Matthew and Mark' Temple discourse:
LUKE 21 MATTHEW 24 OLIVET DISCOURSE CONTROVERSY [Poll Thread]
Also, did anyone notice that Luke uses the singular word "cloud" instead of "clouds"?
I never really paid much attention to that until I started harmonizing Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourses to Revelation.
Plural clouds is only used 1 time in Revelation, while singular cloud is used numerous times for "strong Messenger" and "Son of Man"
Clouds vs Cloud in NT
Cloud vs Clouds in NT
Luke 21:27
And then they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming in a cloud<3507> with power and much glory.
Revelation 10:1
And I saw another strong Messenger coming down out of the Heaven,
arrayed with a cloud<3507>..............
Revelation 11:12
and they heard a great Voice out of the heaven saying to them, 'ascend ye hither!'
and they ascended to the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them;
Revelation 14:14
And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
Revelation 14:15
and another Messenger did come forth out of the Sanctuary
crying-out in a great Voice to Him who is sitting upon the cloud, 'Send forth thy sickle and reap............
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Berean Tim
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Who were the 10 Kings in 70 AD ? Daniel has the little Horn coming from these 10. Who is the beast with the "fatal head wound , that was healed " ? Three times it's referenced in Revelation 13. Must have the wound to connect the mark 666.
Who was the false prophet who made the image of the beast speak ? Did that image speak in 70 AD ? He must also preform great signs "fire coming down in the presence of men" Did this happen in 70AD ?
Just a few things I think about when studying end times
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Hello BT.
Since I view Revelation as 1st century Jerusalem and judgement against the religious rulers and Temple, I try to look at things from a 1st century Hebrew/Jewish perspective.
I created a thread here if you want to peruse it, but It is simply a view I have and subject to change at a moment's notice
............Acts 1:6 Restore Kingdom to Israel/10 KINGS One Mind Reve 17
You and/or others may want to check out my "Allusions" thread.....
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
I hope some of this helps........
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Berean Tim
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Long post , I'll continue to go thru it. Matthew's Olivet Discourse was only given to 4 people , Peter , Andrew , John and James. Mark clearly states this. Luke has some differences from Matthew and Mark. No transition to the Mount of Olives. No mention of Daniel. My understanding as of now is Luke 21:20-21 is referring to the events of 70 Ad.The word "preterist" does not mean the same thing to all people.
Christ was clearly a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse.
It contains events fulfilled in 70 AD, and also contains events related to the future Second Coming of Christ.
................................................................
Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:
Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)
Luk 21:5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,
Luk 21:6 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."
(Mat 24:2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )
Luk 21:7 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"
(Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")
( Mar 13:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,
Mar 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")
Luk 21:8 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.
(Mat 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )
Luk 21:9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."
(Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)
Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution
Luk 21:10 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
(Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )
Luk 21:11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
(Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )
Luk 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
(Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)
Luk 21:13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.
Luk 21:14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;
Luk 21:15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
Luk 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
Luk 21:17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
(Mat 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )
Luk 21:18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.
Luk 21:19 By your patience possess your souls.
(Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)
Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (See also Luke 19:41-44)
(Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
(Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)
Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
(Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! ) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. Paul also spoke of this time period in Romans 11. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)
The Coming of the Son of Man
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
(Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
(Mat 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)
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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7
"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].
7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "
Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.
John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.
The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.
Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.
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Print out a copy of the above and give it to your pastor.
If he gets upset, you can blame me.
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I'm not at all convinced Matthew 24:15-16 is referring to the same event. Similar language and warnings. You can't destroy the temple then stand in the Holy Place or temple and show your self as God ( 2 Thess 2 ). If this was "The Tribulation" Revelations has a lot of other events. The "fatal wound that was healed" The image created and life given to it so that it speaks. The ten kings and so on
Thanks for your time. I'm still studying as I have for the last 32 years LOL
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If you take some time studying the post and still conclude that Matthew's account and Luke's account are not speaking of the same thing, let me know and we can discuss it.
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- May 19, 2015
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Hi BAB. I also have a thread on that "controversy" [which I posted earlier] if you are interested.
LUKE 21 MATTHEW 24 OLIVET DISCOURSE CONTROVERSY [Poll Thread]
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This seems like a very strange prayer. Does it go something like this?This looks like a fun thread! How did I ever miss it!
Spirit filled orthodox Preterist here.
[Prayerfully, and with God's blessing, later to be full preterist.....but just not yet ]
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Lord I am partially blinded. Could you please gouge out my other eye?
I will be able to harmonize without distraction.
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Douggg
anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
- May 28, 2009
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The feud between preterists and futurists in this forum is not the problem it once was because tags were introduced to give futurists a way to keep preterists from taking over every thread. My personal opinion is still that there should be separate forums for each, with maybe one common forum for every body with tags.This seems like a very strange prayer. Does it go something like this?
Lord I am partially blinded. Could you please gouge out my other eye?
I will be able to harmonize without distraction.
The current feud on this forum is between them who believe the church has become Israel - and them who do not. That feud shows up in nearly every thread.
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