Taking action yourself and being decieved

JimBeta · Oct 27, 2018

I hear some Christians say: you must not try to change yourself, that does not work. You have to let God change you. I am not behind that reason because I have thought so myself for a long time. And it is true, God often asked me to do this and I do that but I thought, no, I can not. In order to be changed by God, we must take action ourselves. We have to make some effort. If we always wait for God to change us and never do anything ourselves to change, then we do not make any effort at all. Of course it does not work. We certainly do not need to put any burdens on ourselves , but it is good to be a little bit involved with ourselves and try to sin less. That line of thought, that we ourselves must do nothing, is not good in my eyes. When a boss gives his servant an order, it is not the boss who has to execute that order. It is the servant who has to. The boss only has to give the order. I see so much deception in the world. Even among the Christians, I sometimes even think that among us, there is still the most deception. But who is deceived and who is not? How can we be sure of something? Maybe we are deceived ourselves. It is not all easy. Many will say: read the Bible then you will know the truth. It is not that simple, we form the truth ourselves with what we read and that can be different for everyone. If that were not the case, then there was no deception in the first place. The deception is the most dangerous where the truth is. For the deception is the opposite of the truth. So reading the Bible can be dangerous but is necessary. Let us hope that others get the correct knowledge and that we also receive it from God.

HTacianas · Oct 27, 2018

JimBeta said:
I hear some Christians say: you must not try to change yourself, that does not work. You have to let God change you. I am not behind that reason because I have thought so myself for a long time. And it is true, God often asked me to do this and I do that but I thought, no, I can not. In order to be changed by God, we must take action ourselves. We have to make some effort. If we always wait for God to change us and never do anything ourselves to change, then we do not make any effort at all. Of course it does not work. We certainly do not need to put any burdens on ourselves , but it is good to be a little bit involved with ourselves and try to sin less. That line of thought, that we ourselves must do nothing, is not good in my eyes. When a boss gives his servant an order, it is not the boss who has to execute that order. It is the servant who has to. The boss only has to give the order. I see so much deception in the world. Even among the Christians, I sometimes even think that among us, there is still the most deception. But who is deceived and who is not? How can we be sure of something? Maybe we are deceived ourselves. It is not all easy. Many will say: read the Bible then you will know the truth. It is not that simple, we form the truth ourselves with what we read and that can be different for everyone. If that were not the case, then there was no deception in the first place. The deception is the most dangerous where the truth is. For the deception is the opposite of the truth. So reading the Bible can be dangerous but is necessary. Let us hope that others get the correct knowledge and that we also receive it from God.

A quote I can't help but think supports some of what you've said. From the Confession of Dositheus, Synod of Jerusalem, 1672:

"And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing [or, prevenient] grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation..."

eleos1954 · Oct 27, 2018

JimBeta said:
I hear some Christians say: you must not try to change yourself, that does not work. You have to let God change you. I am not behind that reason because I have thought so myself for a long time. And it is true, God often asked me to do this and I do that but I thought, no, I can not. In order to be changed by God, we must take action ourselves. We have to make some effort. If we always wait for God to change us and never do anything ourselves to change, then we do not make any effort at all. Of course it does not work. We certainly do not need to put any burdens on ourselves , but it is good to be a little bit involved with ourselves and try to sin less. That line of thought, that we ourselves must do nothing, is not good in my eyes. When a boss gives his servant an order, it is not the boss who has to execute that order. It is the servant who has to. The boss only has to give the order. I see so much deception in the world. Even among the Christians, I sometimes even think that among us, there is still the most deception. But who is deceived and who is not? How can we be sure of something? Maybe we are deceived ourselves. It is not all easy. Many will say: read the Bible then you will know the truth. It is not that simple, we form the truth ourselves with what we read and that can be different for everyone. If that were not the case, then there was no deception in the first place. The deception is the most dangerous where the truth is. For the deception is the opposite of the truth. So reading the Bible can be dangerous but is necessary. Let us hope that others get the correct knowledge and that we also receive it from God.

John 14:26

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Nehemiah 9:20

"You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.

Matthew 10:19-20

"But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Mark 13:11

"When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.

Luke 12:12

for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

JimBeta · Oct 27, 2018

eleos1954 said:
John 14:26

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Nehemiah 9:20

"You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.

Matthew 10:19-20

"But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Mark 13:11

"When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.

Luke 12:12

for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Yes we certainly need the Holy Spirit, but if you do not do what the Holy Spirit asks then you will not change. I do not believe that God waves his wand. I believe he gives us instructions thru the Holy Spirit on how to change ourself. I believe He encourages us to do the good thing and make the right decision.
Yes the Holy Spirit will do the talking, but you need to acknowledge His guidance and still say the words the Holy Spirit puts inside you.
So yes, it is thru the Holy Spirit that we change, but without effort of ourselfs, nothing will come from it.

eleos1954 · Oct 27, 2018

JimBeta said:
Yes we certainly need the Holy Spirit, but if you do not do what the Holy Spirit asks then you will not change. I do not believe that God waves his wand. I believe he gives us instructions thru the Holy Spirit on how to change ourself. I believe He encourages us to do the good thing and make the right decision.
Yes the Holy Spirit will do the talking, but you need to acknowledge His guidance and still say the words the Holy Spirit puts inside you.
So yes, it is thru the Holy Spirit that we change, but without effort of ourselfs, nothing will come from it.

The verses given were moreso in response to

"So reading the Bible can be dangerous but is necessary"

Reading, studying the Lords word is not dangerous, it is His main avenue along with His Holy Spirit to communicate with us.

God Bless.

JimBeta · Oct 27, 2018

eleos1954 said:
The verses given were moreso in response to

"So reading the Bible can be dangerous but is necessary"

Reading, studying the Lords word is not dangerous, it is His main avenue along with His Holy Spirit to communicate with us.

God Bless.

If you do not see the danger then you are a easy victim to be decieved.
There are so many decievements going on in this world and they all use the Bible. Even satan used the Bible. If we do not understand the danger that lays inside the Bible, we can become a victim of decievement ourself. The Bible is necessary, correct knowledge is even more necessary. Do not say to me, there is correct knowledge in the Bible because I will say: yes that is true but there is also corruptness in our mind. And the danger that is in the Bible has to do with that corruptness. We make our own interpretation on what is written and many decievement comes out of it. I have not been living under a rock, I see the decievement, based on Bible Scripture, everyday. Yes there is danger in the Bible. We need the correct understanding of it and without that there is real danger in the Bible. Specially when we use the Bible to judge, there is a lot of danger in that.

timewerx · Oct 27, 2018

Should we repent first before we can be saved?

The act of repentance stems from our decision and commitment to turn away or change from our evil ways.

It sounds like a very conscious decision and action to change for me.

Jesus often said "sin no more" is definitely a call to action on our part.

JimBeta · Oct 27, 2018

timewerx said:
Should we repent first before we can be saved?

The act of repentance stems from our decision and commitment to turn away or change from our evil ways.

It sounds like a very conscious decision and action to change for me.

Jesus often said "sin no more" is definitely a call to action on our part.

We need to repent yes. This is not a real work we need to do in order to be saved, we need to do it so we should understand that we need a Saviour. Repenting makes us humble. That is the reason we all should repent as much as we can. It makes us humble and shows we need Christ.

FIRESTORM314 · Oct 27, 2018

I agree - we do have to do our part & the good thing about the bible is that it highlights were we need to do the work.
Some people have great difficulty actually understanding how do you go about doing it.

com7fy8 · Oct 27, 2018

JimBeta said:
I hear some Christians say: you must not try to change yourself, that does not work. You have to let God change you.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and He will flee from you." (James 4:7)

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:4-5)

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"striving according to his working which works in me mightily." (in Colossians 1:28-29)

So, I think it is kind of like we are the skin on God's hand. The skin has the bones and nerves and muscle in it, plus how it is moved according to what the head decides and guides. So, the skin is fully alive and active and conscious, but doing in sharing with the muscle and nerves and bones and blood and head.

We share with God.

JimBeta said:
In order to be changed by God, we must take action ourselves.

in sharing

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

JimBeta said:
God often asked me to do this and I do that but I thought, no, I can not.

JimBeta said:
The boss only has to give the order.

God gave orders about what would be created, then God Himself did what His words meant. So, if God speaks for something, He makes it happen right, and has us operating in sharing with Him. It is kind of like if you think you want to build a house, then you are the one who does what your thoughts order.

JimBeta · Oct 27, 2018

com7fy8 said:
"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and He will flee from you." (James 4:7)

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:4-5)

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"striving according to his working which works in me mightily." (in Colossians 1:28-29)

So, I think it is kind of like we are the skin on God's hand. The skin has the bones and nerves and muscle in it, plus how it is moved according to what the head decides and gui8des. So, the skin is fully alive and active and conscious, but doing in sharing with the muscle and nerves and bones and blood and head.

We share with God.

in sharing

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

God gave orders about what would be created, then God Himself did what His words meant. So, if God speaks for something, He makes it happen right, and has us operating in sharing with Him. It is kind of like if you think you want to build a house, then you are the one who does what your thoughts order.

You seem to forget the free Will factor

com7fy8 · Oct 27, 2018

JimBeta said:
You seem to forget the free Will factor

But I have offered scripture for what I am saying.

FIRESTORM314 · Nov 6, 2018

JimBeta said:
I hear some Christians say: you must not try to change yourself, that does not work. You have to let God change you. I am not behind that reason because I have thought so myself for a long time. And it is true, God often asked me to do this and I do that but I thought, no, I can not. In order to be changed by God, we must take action ourselves. We have to make some effort. If we always wait for God to change us and never do anything ourselves to change, then we do not make any effort at all.

I was hoping this thread would have got more replies and opinions.

Some Christians have the view that they have to go into the promised land and take possession of it and claim the promises of God during the process. In other words they do the work but have God's Help - God is with us, etc.

Even Paul said be transformed by the renewing of your mind - so we have a part to play.

Yes God transforms us and he is the one who will ultimately transform us into the image of his Son in a twinkling of an eye. But here and now...we do the work ( with God's help )

So what exactly are we aiming for in this change?

To be be more spiritual?
To be more healthy?
To be more educated?
To be more confident?
To be more successful?
To be more Social?

I suppose we tackle change on two fronts - the Spiritual and our own personal needs
I think it's sensible to do both.

Just some thoughts

JimBeta · Nov 7, 2018

FIRESTORM314 said:
I was hoping this thread would have got more replies and opinions.

Some Christians have the view that they have to go into the promised land and take possession of it and claim the promises of God during the process. In other words they do the work but have God's Help - God is with us, etc.

Even Paul said be transformed by the renewing of your mind - so we have a part to play.

Yes God transforms us and he is the one who will ultimately transform us into the image of his Son in a twinkling of an eye. But here and now...we do the work ( with God's help )

So what exactly are we aiming for in this change?

To be be more spiritual?
To be more healthy?
To be more educated?
To be more confident?
To be more successful?
To be more Social?

I suppose we tackle change on two fronts - the Spiritual and the our own personal needs
I think it's sensible to do both.

Just some thoughts

I think the only think we have to work on is to renew our mindset. There is only one thing we need to change in that. Our nature is to be egoistical. So we must renew our mindset to be not egoistical anymore. Our mindset is set on ourself. We must change that, as a Christian, to be set on others.
For non believers they also need to change the mindset of believing in themself or false Gods, to believing in God, but I am talking here to christians so I do not think that is needed anymore.
How do we change that? When we get thoughts of helping someone, or being there for someone, but we also have thoughts of, for instance, watch a tv show or play a game on pc/ps4 whatever it may be, we should try to choose to help/listen to the other person. This is just an example.
In short, we have to put the thoughts to help another above the thoughts of helping ourself. This will not always work because of the sin in our body, but if we try to at least listen to those thoughts a few times and try to do what they ask then we are renewing our mind.

As you can see there are two parts in this case needed. The Spirit, who leads (asks) you things and you that accept and do them. If we would not have the Spirit, these thoughts would never come into our mind and we would never think of doing them and stay egoistical. But this does not mean we have to do no work, we have to accept them and do them. So its a bit of teamwork instead of one doing everything.

Without the Spirit, it would never be possible, this is true. So all honor should go to God. But to say we do not do anything is a bit foolish because then you actually say we do not have a free will and are robots. I do not believe we should be robots...

Its simple, if God changes us and we have nothing to do ourself, how can what we do then be genuine? How can it be real? It can not be. It can not have value because it does not come out of our heart and mind. Work only can have value if we need to fight ourself sometimes to do it. If we can make the right choice. Then it can have value. If we are robots, and do good anyway without any struggle, it can not have value.

In the next world things will be different, we will do only good and no more bad. But then that is genuine because there is no sin in us anymore, so this theory does not apply to that time.

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