WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

Saint Steven said:

What is that "very good reason"? (plausible is not always good)

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When you have a bunch of people, all believing God sent them to the internet to teach others what they think they know, and they are there to instruct others concerning what they believe they know, there is only one commandment that truly matters:
Thou shalt not admit to error

Thankfully, context is a handy tool when faced with scripture that must be disregarded in order to obey the only commandment that really matters

LoveGodsWord said:

Ok @Karola and @Saint Steven, I guess I should go and get some rest. Sorry late my time. Nice talking to you both and love you both.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

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Just for you LGW, it will give you an opportunity to say scripture disagrees with it:



You see, it is the penalty of sin that makes you so fearful of sin, and your fear of sin produces great allurement in you to sin. If I said to you, “If you think of a pink rabbit, God will condemn you to hell,” what is the first thing you will think of if you believe me? You would try desperately never to think of such a creature, wouldn’t you? You would become agitated at the thought of a pink rabbit. You would be, animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of the creature. You would end up in a frenzied state concerning it, I imagine. Now the more these emotions overcome you concerning the creature, the more the thought of the creature will overwhelm you; it will become irresistible. You see, however, as you know there is no penalty of condemnation in place if you think of a pink rabbit, you will not get worked up about it, will you? Paul states Romans 7:5-6:


For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (NIV)



Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us when we live under it. For he goes on to say we die to the law − we have been released from the law (of righteousness) as Christians and serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code (the law). Why does he say the law arouses sinful passions for those living under it?

Well, you see, the same emotions that would overcome you at the thought of a pink rabbit, if you believed such thoughts could condemn you, would also overcome you where sin is concerned if you live under the law. The penalty for sin is in place if you live under the law, isn’t it? Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin. You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. Now the more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state, friend. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore, your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you. That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it.

LoveGodsWord said:

Ok @Karola and @Saint Steven, I guess I should go and get some rest. Sorry late my time. Nice talking to you both and love you both.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

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I feel generous, here's some more:
Part1
If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten pence

stake, he might oblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? The stake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegas and there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excited then, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It is not possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitement surging through the individual’s body, is it?

Many take up sports that have an element of risk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies at one end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send them hurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted, they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time, exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher the risk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in the individual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalin flows.

There is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however, and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry more risk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more than anyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for the highest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focus on during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.

Now suppose a young man in his late teens goes to a church service one night and becomes a Christian. He believes God has wiped the slate clean because He has forgiven any sin in his life and is, therefore, spotless in God’s sight because Jesus died for his sins. This young man comes from a loving, secure home. He has hardly drunk, he has never smoked or used bad language, and he has not as yet had a serious girlfriend. Such a person you may think is off to a flying start as a Christian because he doesn’t have what people often consider the “taboo” sins that must cease in order for a person to attain Heaven.

So he sets out on the Christian walk. He is convicted to live his life as a Christian must, for the law has been put on his heart, and he is determined to follow his heart’s desire. The next day he goes out with some friends. They stop in a cafe for something to eat and a scantily clad and attractive young lady walks in. Excitement is stirred in him as she stands close by. The young man immediately has a conscience at his thoughts. Though he previously found women extremely attractive and had improper thoughts concerning them, for the first time, his conscience hurts him. He mustn’t have those kind of thoughts now that he is a Christian.

The following week he is out again with friends and sees a provocative-looking woman walking down the road. This time the excitement stirred in him is even greater. The improper thoughts, therefore, are much worse than they were on the previous occasion. He dwells on them a little longer than he did the last time. This makes him feel far worse than he did previously. If he wants to be a Christian, those thoughts have to stop.

A few days later he is watching television. A show comes on that he has seen many times before. He is very troubled. Week after week he has seen the woman who hosts the programme and hardly given her a second glance, but now he is looking at her in a different way, one that stirs up a hornet’s nest in his mind.

Over the next few months the excitement grows when he thinks of or comes into contact with women. The resulting impure thoughts gradually worsen. He is very concerned. When he first became a Christian he used to ask God once a week to forgive him of any imperfections in his life, but now he asks every other day. At first he had no doubt God immediately forgave him, but now that the sin is getting worse, he is not so confident. How can he be a Christian and have the thoughts he is having?

The excitement women stir in him mounts, it becomes relentless. The impure thoughts magnify tenfold. He finds himself now daily pleading with God to forgive him for the wrong in his mind. He tries his hardest to resist such thoughts, but the harder he tries the worse they get. It is like trying to cut through a swarm of bees with a sword; his efforts come to nothing. He stops socialising with other young people at the church because they wouldn’t want to know him if they understood the real him beneath the skin.

Eventually he finds the excitement that women stir in him is out of control. He goes to church less frequently and spends far less time praying and reading his Bible. He is discouraged, wearied by his failed efforts to resist.

The final straw comes when he hires out a inappropriate contentographic film. He can’t be a Christian. He tried his hardest, but failed. In the few months since he got saved, he just ended up a worse sinner. The weird thing is before he became a Christian he looked at women and coveted them at times, but thoughts such as the ones he is having now had never consumed his mind. He walks away depressed, convinced he will end up in hell. Even though he is sure God exists and Jesus died on the cross to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, he couldn’t be good enough for God. He was too weak and ill disciplined.

Now this young man became a Christian. He was immediately sin conscious we can say. Before God placed the law on the young man’s heart and wrote it on his mind, he committed sin, for improper thoughts and lust break the law of God, but before he became a Christian, he would not have recognised his improper thoughts as sinful. For as we previously saw, it is only when we are conscious of God’s laws that we become conscious of our sin because when we see our shortfall in obedience to those laws, the light is turned on. So the young man earnestly desired the sin to cease, for he had been born again, but his sinful nature, which is basic to all and has been around since the time of Adam, didn’t want to stop sinning. It cannot, friend, for by its definition, it is a nature that desires to break the law of God.

Now why did such fear and excitement overcome the young man where lust was concerned? Because he believed the outcome of this highest-of-all-stakes battle hinged on ceasing his sin, in this case his improper thoughts. He was fully convinced this was the truth. The risk (or danger) of hell centred on that one thing. Now, friend, you simply cannot be in a battle for the highest of all stakes, with, therefore, the greatest of risks attached to it without huge excitement being stirred up in you. That is human nature, and that excitement will inevitably focus on what decides the outcome of the battle. Whenever impure thoughts came to the young man, therefore, great excitement overcame him at the same time. What must be the result? The sinful nature had a field day; he became swamped by lust and believed he was condemned.

You see, friend, there is no faith in fear, and there is no victory unless the truth of the Gospel is followed. If that young man had looked to Jesus and trusted that He died for his sins when improper thoughts came over him, those thoughts would have never posed any great risk or danger, would they? Huge excitement would, therefore, have never overcome him where lust (or coveting) was concerned. There would have been no high stakes battle concerning lust. The problem is the young man did not stand on a justification of faith in Christ, but one of works of the law (ceasing lust), for lust is breaking the law of God. Let us not forget, as well, had the young man looked to Jesus and trusted that He atoned for his sins, rather than trying to be justified before God by works of the law, he could not, and would not have used that as a licence to sin, for he desperately wanted to be free of the sin in his heart. That would not change if he had looked to Christ and stood by faith in Him. He would still have hated the sin and wanted to be free of it, but he would not have let the sin condemn him.

Now we can say the young man would have felt alive before the law came to him because there was no condemnation then, but once it did come, sin (consciousness) sprang to life in him and he died spiritually. The commandment he believed would give him life if he obeyed it, instead brought death (condemnation), for he could not keep it. Sin, through the commandment, slew him, and yet he knew the law itself was holy, just, and good. He (his sin) was the problem, not the good and holy laws of God.

Now, friend, listen to the words of Paul in Romans 7:9-13. He is speaking of a time the law came to him when he came of age to make a commitment to God. This would have been before his conversion to Christianity, therefore:


Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin (consciousness) sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. (NIV)


You see, friend, Paul the Pharisee, and the young man both had something in common. They both believed they had to be good enough for God. Because that is what they believed, they were slain by sin according to the law’s requirements.

LoveGodsWord said:

Ok @Karola and @Saint Steven, I guess I should go and get some rest. Sorry late my time. Nice talking to you both and love you both.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

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Part2

Now you may say, Paul was a one off, and the young man is a fictitious story. Well let us look first at the Pharisees, the religious party to which Paul belonged before he converted to Christianity.

The leaders of the Pharisees gave all the outward signs of being holy, God-fearing people. They attended all the synagogue meetings and knew the literal words of the then-scriptures inside and out. They tithed down to their last mint dill and cumin and did good

deeds that everyone could see. They would not have gotten drunk, used foul language, had extramarital affairs, or smoked I imagine if smoking had been invented then. They even laid flowers on the graves of the prophets their forefathers murdered and said, “We would never have acted as they did.” Yet it was not enough. Jesus said they did not even know His Father, and He reserved his harshest criticisms for them. So why was Jesus so upset with the Pharisees? I would like us to look at a few of the comments He made to them, beginning with John 5:45: “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.” (NIV)

When Jesus said the Pharisees’ hopes were set on Moses, He was saying the Pharisees pinned their hopes of Heaven on obedience to the law given to Moses at Sinai. Now you may wonder, What is wrong with that? God gave the law to the people. If they had obeyed it, they would have been considered righteous in His sight. That is true, but the Pharisees made fundamental mistakes as we shall see from the words of Jesus in Matthew 23:27-28:



Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. (NIV)



Now we read of what happened to Paul when he hinged his hopes of Heaven on obedience to the law. He said in Philippians 3:6 that he was faultless as a Pharisee when it came to keeping the legalistic laws, but in Romans 7:8 he said he could not obey, “Thou shalt not covet.” Legalistic laws may at times be tiresome to keep, but it is not so hard to go through rite, ritual, and ceremony, is it? However, they are laws that concern what can be seen on the outside. “Thou shalt not covet,” however is a law you can break without anyone but you and God knowing about it, isn’t it? You can desire what you should not desire, you can covet as much as you want, and no other person has to know you are doing it. So you can look righteous and clean on the outside, but at the same time be full of everything unclean on the inside. Now if the young man had decided to continue going to church, would he not have been forced to appear righteous on the outside while full of uncleanliness on the inside? Would he not have had to act as Jesus said the Pharisees of His day acted?

But friend, the worst thing of all concerning the Pharisees can be found in the following words of Jesus in Matthew 23:2-4:



The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (NIV)



You see, the Pharisees told the people how they must live according to the law; however, they could not attain themselves to what they demanded of others. So they crushed the people with heavy loads, but offered them no help once they had crushed them. The people would have seen the Pharisees appear on the outside as such Godly people, and would have imagined the inside of the cup was the same. And when the Pharisees were most insistent that others fully obey the law, the ordinary folk would have imagined that the Pharisees, who appeared so very righteous on the outside, had already attained on the inside what they demanded of others. Yet we know this was not the truth, according to Jesus’ words. The people would have become terribly crushed, don’t you think? For they would have known on the inside they were not perfect according to their flesh. Yet the Pharisees would have been demanding almost sinless perfection. The result must be the people would have felt much guilt and condemnation. That, friend, is why Jesus reserved his harshest words for the Pharisees.

Now if that young man had remained in church, he would have had no choice but to promote a Gospel message he could not himself live up to, correct? This, friend, is the result of trying to attain Heaven by being good enough. I hope the words of Jesus convince you of the folly of taking such a road.

Now King David lived under the Old Covenant. God said he was a man after His own heart. This is what David said, according to Psalm 103:10: “He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.” (NIV)

We can see here that David was not a proud person who believed he would attain Heaven by being good enough. For he said God does not treat people according to what they deserve. Yet a Pharisee and the young Christian believed God would treat them according to their personal goodness under the law. David did not rely ultimately on obedience to the law, however. For he said in Psalm 52:8, “I trust in God’s unfailing love for ever and ever.” (NIV)

David loved God, and knew he was secure in God’s love for him. Because he knew he was secure in God’s love, he wanted to obey out of love for God, not because he thought he could have a true righteousness of his own by doing so. David knew no such righteousness existed. He said in Psalm 143:2, “Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.” (NIV)

You see, friend, no one has ever been truly righteous under the law, for no one fully obeyed it. Now there is a huge difference between David wanting to obey out of love and the Pharisees wanting to try to obey because they thought they could be good enough. David knew his bottom line before God. He trusted in God’s unfailing love for him; the Pharisees did not. By their attitude, they neglected what mattered most. Jesus said in Luke 11:42, “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God.” (NIV)

You see, if you believe you have to strive to be good enough for God, you will neglect the love, mercy, and compassion of God in the process. You don’t need it if you think you can be righteous under your own effort, do you? It is then all about what you have achieved − what you have done. You would not then depend on God’s unfailing love for you as David did.

Let us consider the young man who walked away crushed. Would he have believed in the love, mercy, and compassion of God? If your parents told you when you were a child that unless you performed almost perfectly under their rules they would cast you out, would you have believed they were loving parents? You wouldn’t, would you? The young man believed ultimately he could not be good enough; therefore, he never knew how great God’s love was, for he never followed the true Gospel.

You see, friend, King David understood the truth. The bottom line under the Old Covenant was God’s unfailing love, and Christ showed that unfailing love to us under the New Covenant by dying for our sins at Calvary. For the God who initiated the Old Covenant, also initiated the new one; therefore, David hinged his hope of eternal life on God’s unfailing love, whereas the Pharisees, as did Paul before he converted to Christianity, hinged their hope of eternal life on being good enough. David, therefore, delighted in obeying God’s laws out of love for God, whereas the Pharisees became full of hypocrisy, wickedness, and everything unclean on the inside.

Now we have looked at the Pharisees, but is the young man really just a fictitious story that would never happen in real life? I know of Christian counsellors who have spent much time with people who have become Christians and ended up consumed by lust. No, friend, tragically that is all too often real life.

So I feel I must repeat to those of you who believe you could not be a Christian because you know you could never be good enough for God. God does not want people who think they can be good enough. He wants people who acknowledge they cannot be good enough: people who will praise Him and thank him for the unfailing love He showed by sending His Son to die for us undeserving sinners.

LoveGodsWord said:

Steve, was your claims of Hebrews 10 that you provided earlier an example of context for you?

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That is a good point about Hebrews chapter ten. I was forced to reach out to other passages that contained the word "shadow" in reference to the law. Fortunately, it's a minor issue. I still believe the whole law is a shadow. Just hard to prove to someone that believes otherwise. This falls under "disputable matters". Rom.14:1 (a gray area) Here's an example of a context study. You have seen this one from @1stcenturylady (credit due) I hope my memory serves on that. Apologies if not.

Here is a common verse quoted by SDAs all the time. (1 John 2:4)
We are told that anyone who knows God keeps his Ten Commandments.
If they don't, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

But what does it really mean in context? Good question.

1 John 2:4 KJV
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
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I prefer the NIV, so let's move over there to see what we find.
Nothing about keeping the Ten Commandments.
This says, "do what he commands". But who is the "he"? (hold that thought)

1 John 2:4 NIV
Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.
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Let's look at the near context. (the verse before and after)
Again, nothing about keeping the Ten Commandments.
But who is the "he"? And what are the "commands"? (hold that thought)

1 John 2:3-5
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:
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The preceding context tells us who "he" is. "Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
So, we are talking about the commands of Jesus. At this point SDAs might claim this is indeed speaking of "Jesus' Ten Commandments". Using the logic that Jesus is God, therefore they are His Ten Commandments. But this says commands, so that is not what this is about.

1 John 2:1-2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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So, what are these "commands"? Let's look at the proceeding context. (the verses after the near context) This helps, but presents us with a bit of a mystery. Not a new command, but an old one, which we have heard since the beginning. The beginning of what? It is also a new command, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. We need open up the context at look at any references to this command of Jesus within this book and in the NT. See below.

1 John 2:7-8
Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
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Here we go. The new command is here defined.

John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

2 John 1:5
And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hello Brother Cis.jd, sorry shopping day for us today. I had a look at your video. There is a lot of misinformation in it, so for me, I would not put too much faith in it if I was you. He has the SDA Church coming from the Anglican Church and the Puritans. This has no truth in it whatsoever. Actually the SDA church came from many different Church's of the day mainly from the Baptists but also others that were a part of the Millerite movement of the mid 1800's. That being said the SDA Church never came into being until around 1863. So the guy in the video has his facts all wrong. If the informaiton about the SDA Church is wrong it would not be hard to think a lot of the other information he has provided about the other Churches may also be wrong as well. I cannot tell you what his thinking may or may not be I do not know anything about him. I will say though as mentioned earlier. There is nothing wrong with man made traditions as long as they do not lead you away from God's WORD to forsake God and break his Commandments.

God bless brother.

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Yes, he is wrong however if you look at the end he says everyone (including the SDA), except the Baptist, are all part of the Catholic family tree. Everyone except the Baptists, are a spin-off from Roman Catholicism. If you have time, just watch from 8:50 until the end.

So here is where we are going to bring together the verses i asked you to quote from Acts and 2nd Peter, and this video. Do you see a connection with your view of Sunday worshiping being a tradition of man?

Do the rest here also see the connection?

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Steve, morning my time. Nice to see you. Your post above to me seems to be jumping all over the place scripture wise. In my view it does not show context. Let's look at the scriptures and see why, it is very simply. The focus of your post above is for 1 JOHN 2:3-4 that says (please forgive me I use KJV)...

1 JOHN 2:3-4
[3], And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The immediate context to these scriptures are defined in v1-2 which say...

1 JOHN 2:1-2
[1], My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2], And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

NOTE: It is very clear here that CONTEXT is defined in v1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. The reason JOHN is writing this letter is defined in the first scripture and that is that we sin not. The whole purpose of this letter that JOHN is writing is that WE SIN NOT! This is the CONTEXT to 1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[4], He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We can get clearer here to look at the scriptures that define what sin is. For me I believe that these scriptures are talking about all the commandments of God; all scripture and yes this includes God's 10 commandments. God's WORD tells us that if we break any of God's 10 Commandments we commit sin. So the purpose and CONTEXT of JOHN letter is that we SIN NOT.

WHAT IS SIN AND HOW IS IT DEFINED IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT?

NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
[9], But if ye have respect to persons, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.
[10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Yep, James is pretty clear if we brake ANY of God's Law (10 commandments) then we are a TRANSGRESSOR of God's LAW and commit SIN. James quotes two of the 10 Commandments saying that if we break them we commit sin v9 that are summed up in the 2nd great commandments of LOVE to God and LOVE to our neighbour in v11. Maybe you missed that one?

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

Well here we have Paul in agreement with James and John also telling us that he did not know what sin was without God's 10 Commandments. SIN is breaking God's commandments and Paul uses the 10th commandment as an example of breaking any of God's LAW (10 commandments) = SIN (Exodus 20:17)

links to...

1 JOHN 3:4 [4] Whosoever commits SIN transgresses also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

John is saying the same thing as James and Paul and states that if we TRANSGRESS God's LAW then we commit SIN because SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF GOD'S LAW. So it is very clear that SIN is breaking ANY of God's LAW (10 commandments). We will look at the chapter context John uses v15 of MURDER as an example of sin which is God's 6th Command of the 10.

Sin is indeed defined in God's WORD as breaking any of the 10 Commandments in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures.

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SIN IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BREAKING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS (Summay)

God said in Genesis 4:7 to Cain when he was angry because he did not worship God in his appointed way that by doing this it was sin. Jesus say the same in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow and teachings of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God. Mankind was destroyed by a flood because of sin (Genesis 6:5-7).

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sin (Genesis 18:20). Jacob knew about sin when he complained to Laben when he left with his daughters (Genesis 31:36).

When Potiphar’s wife came to Joseph with the aim of committing adultery, Joseph knew it was sin and protested saying how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? (Genesis 39:9).

God said that if Israel was not to make a covenant with the other nations and serve their god's it would be sin (Exodus 23:33). When Moses was delayed on the Mount with God the children of ISRAEL made an Idol and worshipped it breaking God's 1st and 2nd commandment (Exodus 20:3-5). Moses said to them after he returned, you have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin (Exodus 32:30; Deuteronomy 9:16-18). Moses said to Aaron that by making an idol for the people to worship that it was a great sin (Exodus 32:21; 30). God would punish the children of Israel for their sin of Idol worship (Exodus 32:34).

God said to Moses in reference to breaking the 10 Commandments; Whosoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Exodus 32:33).

God said that if Israel was not to make a covenant with the other nations and serve their god's it would be sin (Exodus 23:33). Joshua says stealing is sin (Joshua 7:11). Achan knew when he was caught stealing that he sinned (Joshua 7:20).

When God's people forsake God to worship other God's, they also confess that they had sinned in breaking God's commandments (Judges 10:10;15). Samuel made atonement for God's people when they wanted to return to God confessing that they had sinned after they worshipped other Gods breaking God's 1st and 2nd commandments (1 Samuel 7:5; 12:10; Exodus 20:2-5).

King Saul wanted to kill David, but Jonathon spoke good of David saying to him no to sin against David by killing him (1 Samuel 19:4). David cut the skirt of King Saul in the cave and said to him that he could have killed him if he wanted to but did not sin against him by sparing his life (1 Samuel 24:11). King Saul replied that in wanting to kill David he had sinned (1 Samuel 26:21).

When David became king he desired Bathsheba who was another man’s wife and organized for her husband Uriah the Hitite to be sent to the front line of battle to be killed. God sent Nathan to David and David confessed in doing this that he had sinned in breaking God's 6th and 7th Commandment (Exodus 20:13:14). David confessed that he had sinned to breaking God's LAW (1 Samuel 12:13).

Now we can also go through all the evil Kings of Israel that sinned against God by following and worshipping other Gods which is also defined as sin in God's WORD but there would be too many scriptures (2 Kings 17:7). God testified that they served other Gods and idols sending them prophets to warn them of their sins (2 Kings 17:12-13; 16-17). We are also told that King Manasseh also broke God's 6th commandment and killed more innocent people then most others testifying that by doing this he had sinned (2 Kings 16:17). God continued to send prophets to warn his people of the consequences of sin (Nehemiah 9:30). God's people continued in their sins forsaking God's LAW (10 commandments) and in doing so God left them and Israel were overthrown and led into captivity to the other nations because they departed from God serving other God's and idols. Nehemiah knew this and prayed to God confessing their sins (Nehemiah 1:6-9). God's people continued to sin against God by worshipping other Gods despite the warning of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 44:18-23). In despite of God's Word teaching that God's people had forsaken the 10 commandments and sinned against God, going into captivity, God promised he would bring them back when they returned to him and heal them from their sins of breaking his commandments (Ezekiel 37:22-23).

Hosea testified by the Word of the Lord that God's people by making idols and worshipping other god's, lying, stealing, killing, committing adultery would receive the judgments of God because they had sinned by departing from the 10 Commandments (Hosea 4:1-19).

The word of the Lord came to Zephaniah saying that all those who continue in sin by worshipping other God's and breaking his commandments will be destroyed off the land because they have sinned against God (Zephaniah 1:2-17).

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CONCLUSION: Yep God’s WORD is very clear that sin is defined as breaking ANY of the 10 Commandments just as James, Paul and John all teach in the NEW TESTAMENT (James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). All the above scriptures show by example, quoting individual commandments from the 10 Commandments that SIN is indeed also defined as breaking any of God's 10 Commandments.

The reason and CONTEXT for JOHN writing his letter was that we SIN NOT (Not breaking God's Commandments). Therefore 1 JOHN 2:3-4 is in reference to and includes God's 10 Commandments because breaking them is SIN according to the scriptures.

Hope this is helpful brother.

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There is no jumping all over the place. I looked at a single key scripture. Then the near context. (the verse before and after) Then the contextual paragraphs on either side. More info from the chapter and then other NT references. All in good order. I'm guessing that you didn't like my conclusions and are trying to fault my process.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Steve, I apprecaite you sharing your thoughts here. I believe that post # 954 linked, with all the scriptures in them already shows why I disagree with the post you have provided. That being said we can agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

What happened to sister Karola?

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There was a post that got shut down yesterday right before her name turned yellow, so she may have gotten reported for something there.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi brother Cis.jd, nice to see you today. Hope you are well. I just woke up my time
Sorry brother I do not have any faith in what this guy is saying in his video. I did have a look at nearly all of it. His facts were right off. The SDA Chuch mainly has origins from the Baptists but also other Churches of the day in the mid 1800's but that is where it ends. The SDA Church was not formed until 1863 and after some study became a different Church movement.

Ultimately ALL Churches have their origin from the Roman Catholic Church and all Protestant Churches have come from the RCC as the mother of all Churches. As to a connection of the scriptures that we discussed earlier and this guys video. No I see no connection there. If we add the scriptures of JESUS from MATTHEW 15:3-9 it makes defiing man made tradtions and teachings a lot easier to understand. There is nothing wrong with man made traditions in and of themselves. The question we need to consider however is when are mad made traditions and teachings wrong? This is answered in MATTHEW 15:3-9 by JESUS. Let's look at the scriptures...

MATTHEW 15:3-9
[3], But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me;
[6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

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CONCLUSION: The teachings and traditions of men are only bad when they lead others away from God's WORD to break the commandments of God. JESUS says those that follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God. This is why PETER also says in ACTS 5:29 WE OUGHT TO OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MAN. PAUL says the same thing as JESUS and PETER when he says; let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged *ROMANS 3:4

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SIN is breaking any of God's 10 Commandments (Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; James 2:11; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT ENTER the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

In times of ignorance God winks at but when as knowledge of the truth has come God calls on all men everywhere to repent and believe his Word (Acts 17:30-31)

God's is calling his people to come out from following the traditions of men to worship him in Spirit and in truth.

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God knows many follow these traditions from ignorance because they do not know any better. He loves all and is calling all who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Seek him in prayer asking for his Spirit to guide and teach you. He promises to be your guide and teacher. (John 14:26; 16:13: 7:17)

May God bless you brother as you seek him first through his Word.

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I know and I didn't upload that video as some sort of actual resource against your arguments (not directly at least). What I am showing you is that all of you Protestants point fingers at each other for following or still holding to whatever Roman Catholic made tradition. None of you can even agree with each other on these topics. So which Protestant is really following what the Bible says and not cherry picked "catholic made" practices/traditions?

I'm not here responding to just you, but all the Protestants here who have made similar topics like yours (Traditions of Man) in the past. The only difference between your topic and theirs is what you classify as "made by the catholic church".

Now lets go back to Acts 8:30-31 and 2nd Peter 1:20, and how the connect to what I just said here as well as your Sunday worship topic.

On your post on number #836, you explain that verse in Acts that: "God used Philip and guided him" to teach the Eunich on reading his written word. Why? Because he sends teachers (his apostles) to help those read his word so that person does not interpret it wrong. 2nd Peter 1:20 clarifies this as well: No prophecy can come from self-interpretation.

Now, the reason why your interpretation of the scriptures is wrong is that no matter how many words and verses you try to shoehorn to mean what you believe, the fact is you have yet to pull out any historical record of Christians during the 1CE only worshiping on the Sabbath. This is the most important thing to do, why? Because if you SDA's can't get any back up from even the Christians of the 1-2CE, then obviously you are misunderstanding what you are teaching in scripture.

An additional fact is, that Bible that you are using has been recognized and canonized by the same church you are accusing of making man made traditions. God chose the Church, you accuse, in recognizing his word.

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LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Steve, I apprecaite you sharing your thoughts here. I believe that post # 954 linked, with all the scriptures in them already shows why I disagree with the post you have provided. That being said we can agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

What happened to sister Karola?

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I wasn't asking for a doctrinal critique. You asked to see my method for a context study. I showed you. Obviously you had an ulterior motive.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi sister Karola, nice to see you today. I just woke up my time. Just wondering why you do not want to discuss the OP here? Is there any reason that you did not want to? I am happy to chat about ROMANS 7 if you wish to maybe we can talk more about the OP latter if you like? This post and the scriptures in them pretty much covers the three posts you have made on ROMANS 7. Some comments below for your consideration.



As the scriptures say;

ROMANS 6:23 [23], For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here we see the LOVE that GOD had for us...

ROMANS 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God's LOVE is revealed in Christ as well as the importance of God's eternal law. If God's law was not important than Christ would not have had to die for us.

JOHN 3:16-20
[16], For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17], For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18], He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19], And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20], For everyone that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Yet God loved us so much. The God of all creation, perfect and sinless and Holy of Holies, perfect in love and goodness, saw us as lost and in sin, came to this sinful earth because of his great love for us to take our place in death, to die the death that we deserve to die so that we might live and have life and return to him. Here is the LOVE of God revealed.

Our salvation is conditional. v16 Whosoever believes in him {the Word of God; *JOHN 1:1-4;14} should not perish but have everlasting life. We must believe and follow his WORD in order to have salvation from our sins. v18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Many are called but few are chosen. v19 Many will not believe and follow God's WORD because they love sin more than God. v20 and neither will they come to God's WORD that they might be saved.

Sister, God's LAW does NOT make you want to sin more. The problem is that we are sinners and cannot stop sinning and it why we need saving from sin. All God's LAW does is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. It makes no one perfect. God's LAW shows us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and leads us to the cross that we might be FORGIVEN through faith in God's WORD alone and frees us to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 3:22-25; GALATIANS 5:16.

This is why JESUS says;

MATTHEW 9:11-13
[11], And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?
[12], But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
[13], But go and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

We are all sinners in need of a Saviour. This is the purpose of God's LAW, it shows us who we really are that we are all sinners and there is nothing that we can do to save ourselves.

CAN WE LOVE WHEN OUR HEART IS BROKEN AND NEEDS FIXING?

MATTHEW 12:34-35 [34], O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

JEREMIAH 13:23 [23], Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may you also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

JEREMIAH 17:9-10 [9], The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? [10], I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

MATTHEW 15:19-20 [19], For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: [20], These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man.

JOHN 5:42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you.

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We break God's Commandments [SIN] because we do not LOVE. Yep looks like we have a broken heart that needs fixing as there is no LOVE in us without Jesus. We do not sin because of God's LAW. God's LAW only gives us all a knowledge of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS and shows us what is already there withing us and that we are all sick and need of saving from the great Physician.

...........

Now let's look at some specific scriptures from ROMANS 7 you have posted. What we need to consider here though is that ROMANS 6, ROMANS 7 and ROMANS 8 should all be read together to understand what PAUL is saying and to establish the topic of context.

ROMANS 6 starts off the conversation and right up front PAUL says; What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it? *ROMANS 6:1-2 PAUL continues...
[3], Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4], Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that just as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[5], For if we have been united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:[6], Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that we should no longer serve sin. [7], For he that is dead is freed from sin.

NOTE: This section of dieing to sin is repeated in ROMANS 7:1-4 is repeated in as an alegory of the marriage law between a husband and a wife and marrying another. We were married to sin but when our husband has died {the law of sin *FLESH by the body of Christ} we are free to marry another v3-4. We become dead to the law of sin and death by the sacrifice of Chirst death we have God's FORGIVENESS. v5-7 [5], For when we were in the flesh [GREEK meaning of FLESH is sinful human nature], the passions of sins, which were by the law [SINFUL NATURE the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH; the FLESH], did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6], But now we are delivered from the law [SIN AND DEATH], being dead to that in which we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. ROMANS 7:1-4 Is talking about the same theme discussed in ROMANS 6 of the OLD MAN that dies at baptism same theme from ROMANS 6:1-23 and dieing to the body of sin and death {FLESH or sinful human nature} and living in newness of life through the Spirit of God not serving sin but becoming servants of rightoeusness being made free from sin and becoming servants of God having fruit to holiness *ROMANS 6:19-23. This also contrasts and agrees with what PAUL is sayin in ROMANS 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

ROMANS 6 continued...

[10], For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God.
[11], Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[12], Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
[13], Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[14], For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.
[15], What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[16], Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[17], But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18], Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness.
[19], I speak after the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
[20], For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness.
[21], What fruit had you then in those things of which you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[23], For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

NOTE: WE are to die to the flesh and sin and live as servants of God to not follow after sin but to live to God unto holiness, obedience and rightouesness being free from sin and to not serve sin any longer.

In ROMANS 7, PAUL says he delights in obeying God's LAW and serves it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which he served with his flesh, so he equated God's Law with the Law of the Spirit and contrasted them both with the law of sin and death *ROMANS 7:21-8:2. The Spirit of God has the role to lead us to obey God's Law *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; EZEKIEL 36:26-27; HEBREWS 8:10-12. In ROMANS 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are compared with those who live in the flesh and refuse to obey God's Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the God's LAW, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

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CONCLUSION: It is not about being good enough to follow God. Simply we cannot be good enough in our own strenth to follow God because we are all sinners and in need of a Saviour. All we can do without JESUS is sin. We are sick and in need of the great Physician. We need a NEW HEART to love. We need to be BORN AGAIN to walk in God's SPIRIT. It is only by walking in the Spirit and dieing to sin that we can follow God. We need to seek JESUS through his WORD. We need to BELIEVE and FOLLOW JESUS and call on his name to save us because we cannot save ourselves. The promise is you shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with ALL OF YOUR HEART and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Friend only JESUS can save us from our sins and give us power to walk in newness of life. All who continue in KNOWN UNREPENANTANT SIN will die. God's eternal law has the same role that it always has and that is to give is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's eternal law makes nothing perfect but shows us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and leads us to the cross of Christ that we might be FORGIVEN by FAITH and free to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 3:22-25; GALATIONS 5:16; ROMANS 8:1-4. You cannot have God's Spirit however without first having faith in God's WORD *JOHN 17:17.

Hope this is helpful. I believe it has adressed all your posts with God's WORD.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

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I was reading through some posts on this thread, and noticed your explanation of the text (JOHN 3:16-20). See post #953.

I cannot see how you managed to see the following in John 3:16-20.

Our salvation is conditional. v16 Whosoever believes in him {the Word of God; *JOHN 1:1-4;14} should not perish but have everlasting life. We must believe and follow his WORD in order to have salvation from our sins. v18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Many are called but few are chosen. v19 Many will not believe and follow God's WORD because they love sin more than God. v20 and neither will they come to God's WORD that they might be saved.

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1) Salvation is conditional?

2) We must believe and follow His word in order to have salvation?

3) Many are called but few are chosen?

4) Many will not believe and follow God's WORD because they love sin more than God?

It seems apparent that you are not actually reading the text (John 3:16-20). Because the text does not mention any of the points that you made. You must be quoting from some other source and not the text (John 3:16-20).

Truly baffling how you read the text.

1stcenturylady said:

You believe John knew the answer. So do I. When John used the word "commandments" don't you think it would be advisable to know what HE means?

1 John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 3
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Note what "His commandments" are in 1 John 2:3 and 1 John 3:22! Those are His Church!

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In John, Jesus commandment is to love one another. I see no mention about what traditions my church has or what day of the week I go to church on.