Denomination/Doctrine differences

shinoobi · May 3, 2017

Hi All,

I have something troubling me. I am perhaps asking this to the ones who believes the same as I do. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and the only way to the Farther is through Jesus Christ.

So I believe in the death, burial and physical body resurrection of Jesus Christ and He died for our sins and salvation. Nothing we can do can get us into Heaven, only by grace through your faith in Him can get you there.

Now, There are churches and denominations that has different beliefs. Some believe they have to do things to get saved and that you have to work to get into Heaven in a way. Others believe that the Bible must be interpreted spiritually and that also changes certain views on how to get saved. Others believe the Old Laws are still in place. They also reference the Bible to state their case and they truly believe in their ways.

Some of them also dedicate much more of their time to their belief and serve the God of the Bible the best way they can, they pray to Him and live their life just for Him.

I find it confusing/hard to believe/fighting within myself that these people who dedicate their life to God and in their hearts truly love God and life their life just for Him will technically not get saved according to the doctrine held by myself and others. They have been taught differently and they truly do not believe that they are incorrect, they read the Bible and confirm the way they do things. They are not maliciously or deliberately denying the Gospel as how we understand it. They truly believe the Gospel as they have been taught and how they read the Bible. They might believe Jesus was an example for us and they believe in Him but they try to live like Him and speak directly to God for assistance. Some believe more in their deeds than anything else.

If we keep with our doctrine that means they do not get saved and even if they in their hearts truly live for God it does not matter. I am struggling to make sense of this.

Then on the other hand you get those who deny God even exists and they mock God. They will also not get saved. How can one who truly in their heart tries and serve God to the best of their ability and understanding be just as "doomed" as someone who denies God?

This post is directed to those who hold the same Gospel as I do. I am not trying to cause a fight about who is correct and who is not. Even if the shoe was on the other side and our view was incorrect we would also be "doomed"

stuart lawrence · May 3, 2017

shinoobi said:
Hi All,

I have something troubling me. I am perhaps asking this to the ones who believes the same as I do. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and the only way to the Farther is through Jesus Christ.

So I believe in the death, burial and physical body resurrection of Jesus Christ and He died for our sins and salvation. Nothing we can do can get us into Heaven, only by grace through your faith in Him can get you there.

Now, There are churches and denominations that has different beliefs. Some believe they have to do things to get saved and that you have to work to get into Heaven in a way. Others believe that the Bible must be interpreted spiritually and that also changes certain views on how to get saved. Others believe the Old Laws are still in place. They also reference the Bible to state their case and they truly believe in their ways.

Some of them also dedicate much more of their time to their belief and serve the God of the Bible the best way they can, they pray to Him and live their life just for Him.

I find it confusing/hard to believe/fighting within myself that these people who dedicate their life to God and in their hearts truly love God and life their life just for Him will technically not get saved according to the doctrine held by myself and others. They have been taught differently and they truly do not believe that they are incorrect, they read the Bible and confirm the way they do things. They are not maliciously or deliberately denying the Gospel as how we understand it. They truly believe the Gospel as they have been taught and how they read the Bible. They might believe Jesus was an example for us and they believe in Him but they try to live like Him and speak directly to God for assistance. Some believe more in their deeds than anything else.

If we keep with our doctrine that means they do not get saved and even if they in their hearts truly live for God it does not matter. I am struggling to make sense of this.

Then on the other hand you get those who deny God even exists and they mock God. They will also not get saved. How can one who truly in their heart tries and serve God to the best of their ability and understanding be just as "doomed" as someone who denies God?

This post is directed to those who hold the same Gospel as I do. I am not trying to cause a fight about who is correct and who is not. Even if the shoe was on the other side and our view was incorrect we would also be "doomed"

Will all those who believe they attain heaven, not get there if they believe deeds must be reflected in their life?

I agree with you BTW.
We are saved by grace through faith

shinoobi · May 3, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Will all those who believe they attain heaven, not get there if they believe deeds must be reflected in their life?

I agree with you BTW.
We are saved by grace through faith

That is what I am not sure of. I am just struggling to really find an answer that I am comfortable with.

If one truly in their heart serves God to the best they can and know, should they also be saved?

stuart lawrence · May 3, 2017

shinoobi said:
That is what I am not sure of. I am just struggling to really find an answer that I am comfortable with.

If one truly in their heart serves God to the best they can and know, should they also be saved?

At the age of ten I responded to an altar call and set out on the Christian path. I wanted to live a pure and Holy life for God, believing if I didn't I could not be saved.
I noticed that for the first time in my life I became conscious of my sin before God.
Under the NC the law God desires you to keep is placed in your most inward parts, and through the law we become conscious of sin( rom3:20) so I would say I was born again. However, I didn't believe I would continue to be saved for Jesus was my rightstanding before God, but if I lived a pure and Holy life I would continue to remain saved.
Eventually i gave up with God for a few years, as once I reached puberty, try as I might, I could not live the pure and Holy life to the standard I believed I must live in order to remain saved.
A few years later God was gracious to me and opened my eyes to grace. What joy and relief I then felt, I had never previously known such joy as a Christian. Now I knew my rightstanding before God hinged on what Christ did for me, not my personal goodness.
So was I originally saved at ten? The evidence would suggest I was, for at that time I had heartfelt conviction of my sin, I became conscious of it. And that could only happen if Gods laws had been placed within me
Just my thoughts from personal experiences

-57 · May 3, 2017

shinoobi said:
Hi All,

I have something troubling me. I am perhaps asking this to the ones who believes the same as I do. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and the only way to the Farther is through Jesus Christ.

So I believe in the death, burial and physical body resurrection of Jesus Christ and He died for our sins and salvation. Nothing we can do can get us into Heaven, only by grace through your faith in Him can get you there.

Now, There are churches and denominations that has different beliefs. Some believe they have to do things to get saved and that you have to work to get into Heaven in a way. Others believe that the Bible must be interpreted spiritually and that also changes certain views on how to get saved. Others believe the Old Laws are still in place. They also reference the Bible to state their case and they truly believe in their ways.

Some of them also dedicate much more of their time to their belief and serve the God of the Bible the best way they can, they pray to Him and live their life just for Him.

I find it confusing/hard to believe/fighting within myself that these people who dedicate their life to God and in their hearts truly love God and life their life just for Him will technically not get saved according to the doctrine held by myself and others. They have been taught differently and they truly do not believe that they are incorrect, they read the Bible and confirm the way they do things. They are not maliciously or deliberately denying the Gospel as how we understand it. They truly believe the Gospel as they have been taught and how they read the Bible. They might believe Jesus was an example for us and they believe in Him but they try to live like Him and speak directly to God for assistance. Some believe more in their deeds than anything else.

If we keep with our doctrine that means they do not get saved and even if they in their hearts truly live for God it does not matter. I am struggling to make sense of this.

Then on the other hand you get those who deny God even exists and they mock God. They will also not get saved. How can one who truly in their heart tries and serve God to the best of their ability and understanding be just as "doomed" as someone who denies God?

This post is directed to those who hold the same Gospel as I do. I am not trying to cause a fight about who is correct and who is not. Even if the shoe was on the other side and our view was incorrect we would also be "doomed"

I believe a truly saved individual will do good works as a result..by-product..of their salvation. They will do good works for the glory of God.

Some as you said, do good works to get saved. To acheive a merit worthy of salvation. They "work" with the hope of saving themselves from Gods wrath....hell.

It is the works of Christ Jesus that saves us...not our own works.

Radrook · May 3, 2017

shinoobi said:
That is what I am not sure of. I am just struggling to really find an answer that I am comfortable with.

If one truly in their heart serves God to the best they can and know, should they also be saved?

Judging by strict, unbendable, mindless adherence to rules, called deontological reasoning, always leads to injustice. That is why it isn't taught as the proper way for judges to reach a verdict. Instead all relevant issues must be objectively taken into consideration and fairly evaluated before a verdict is passed down. That is the just way to proceed and it is the manner that an all wise, just God would proceed as well. Any accusation that he proceeds differently constitutes Satanic propaganda intended to besmirch his character via depicting him as unjust and irrational.
That is not the way he is described in the Bible.

Psalm 11:7
For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; The upright will behold His face.

Psalm 50:6
And the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is judge. Selah.

BTW
The reason you are struggling is because such judgments on an individual basis are the responsibility of the one who qualifies to make them-God himself. That is why we are not appointed the task of doing so. The only responsibility we have been specifically assigned is to preach and to teach all the things concerning salvation via Jesus.

Mark 16:15
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

John 5:22 ►
New International Version
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son
.

SO we are to leave such matters totally in God's hands

Dave-W · May 3, 2017

Shinoobi - what you are experiencing is the result of the early church fathers distancing themselves from the Jewish roots of the Christian faith. It put the New Covenant faith into a Greek model which is abstract and follows deductive logic. The Hebrew model it came from was NOT abstract at all; rather, everything was defined relationally. And it used ADDUCTIVE (aka "block") logic.

Just like a boat that has its anchor rope cut, the church has drifted in all sorts of ways; and with the protestant reformation/break-up, various groups have drifted in every way imaginable.

shinoobi · May 3, 2017

Dave-W said:
Shinoobi - what you are experiencing is the result of the early church fathers distancing themselves from the Jewish roots of the Christian faith. It put the New Covenant faith into a Greek model which is abstract and follows deductive logic. The Hebrew model it came from was NOT abstract at all; rather, everything was defined relationally. And it used ADDUCTIVE (aka "block") logic.

Just like a boat that has its anchor rope cut, the church has drifted in all sorts of ways; and with the protestant reformation/break-up, various groups have drifted in every way imaginable.

Thanks for the reply. If I may ask, how do you then believe?

Dave-W · May 3, 2017

shinoobi said:
Thanks for the reply. If I may ask, how do you then believe?

"Man looks on the outside, God looks on the heart."1 Sam 16.7b

I see God as a loving father. And what Father rejects his beloved children on a technicality?

Joel 2.32a says that all who call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved. Peter quotes that in Acts 2.
Yes, we call in faith, and rely on the Grace of our Lord to save us.
But there is nothing in there that says we have to have every jot and tittle of doctrine lined up. Actually, that would be "by works" which is properly rejected.

That means I see my brothers and sisters as that, whether we agree on doctrine or not. We serve the same Father and have faith in the same Messiah - Jesus our Lord.

A_Thinker · May 3, 2017

shinoobi said:
Hi All,

I have something troubling me. I am perhaps asking this to the ones who believes the same as I do. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and the only way to the Farther is through Jesus Christ.

So I believe in the death, burial and physical body resurrection of Jesus Christ and He died for our sins and salvation. Nothing we can do can get us into Heaven, only by grace through your faith in Him can get you there.

Now, There are churches and denominations that has different beliefs. Some believe they have to do things to get saved and that you have to work to get into Heaven in a way. Others believe that the Bible must be interpreted spiritually and that also changes certain views on how to get saved. Others believe the Old Laws are still in place. They also reference the Bible to state their case and they truly believe in their ways.

Some of them also dedicate much more of their time to their belief and serve the God of the Bible the best way they can, they pray to Him and live their life just for Him.

I find it confusing/hard to believe/fighting within myself that these people who dedicate their life to God and in their hearts truly love God and life their life just for Him will technically not get saved according to the doctrine held by myself and others. They have been taught differently and they truly do not believe that they are incorrect, they read the Bible and confirm the way they do things. They are not maliciously or deliberately denying the Gospel as how we understand it. They truly believe the Gospel as they have been taught and how they read the Bible. They might believe Jesus was an example for us and they believe in Him but they try to live like Him and speak directly to God for assistance. Some believe more in their deeds than anything else.

If we keep with our doctrine that means they do not get saved and even if they in their hearts truly live for God it does not matter. I am struggling to make sense of this.

Then on the other hand you get those who deny God even exists and they mock God. They will also not get saved. How can one who truly in their heart tries and serve God to the best of their ability and understanding be just as "doomed" as someone who denies God?

This post is directed to those who hold the same Gospel as I do. I am not trying to cause a fight about who is correct and who is not. Even if the shoe was on the other side and our view was incorrect we would also be "doomed"

I believe that, God's salvation through Jesus is a matter of DESIRE and SUBMISSION, ... as opposed to being based upon having all of the right beliefs.

It is analogous to accepting the offer of a rescuer's hand, ... rather than knowing all of the WHAT's and WHEREFORE's about that offer.

We have to place our FAITH in our rescuer ... in order to be rescued. We must, in some sense, ... give up on trying to save ourselves.

The wide assortment of beliefs about HOW we get/got saved is not unexpected, given our universal imperfection.

That is why, I believe, the basic statements about salvation in the scriptures/bible are pretty simple ... and to the point ...

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21 (Peter)/Romans 10:13 (Paul)

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become sons/daughters of God, ... even unto those that believe upon His name. John 1:12

12 Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:12-13

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

shinoobi · May 3, 2017

Dave-W said:
"Man looks on the outside, God looks on the heart."1 Sam 16.7b

I see God as a loving father. And what Father rejects his beloved children on a technicality?

Joel 2.32a says that all who call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved. Peter quotes that in Acts 2.
Yes, we call in faith, and rely on the Grace of our Lord to save us.
But there is nothing in there that says we have to have every jot and tittle of doctrine lined up. Actually, that would be "by works" which is properly rejected.

That means I see my brothers and sisters as that, whether we agree on doctrine or not. We serve the same Father and have faith in the same Messiah - Jesus our Lord.

There are people who believe that Jesus had the gift of Christ within him. He died for our sins on the cross and when he resurrected it was in spirit and it was the gift of Christ that "stood" up and we all can get this gift when we believe and follow God. These same people believe that all who believe makes the body up the body of Christ and the body of Christ is the church so that then tells them that the church is Jesus.

They then refer to the Son of God as their church.

Is this a technicality or is this a big difference? These people serve God and pray and live their live 110% for God, but believe differently. Will they be saved even if they read that Jesus is their church and not as we believe Jesus is?

Dave-W · May 3, 2017

shinoobi said:
Is this a technicality or is this a big difference? These people serve God and pray and live their live 110% for God, but believe differently. Will they be saved even if they read that Jesus is their church and not as we believe Jesus is?

That is a big difference. But is it too big?

Salvation is by covenant. That is a life changing binding agreement with someone according to rules. The other person in this case is God and the "rules" are the requirements and benefits of the New Covenant.

Only God can know whether they are saved or not for sure. We can teach what we believe to be the truth and only pray that it will resonate with them. Treat them as brothers and fellow heirs. Pray for them.

My God and Father is greater than any doctrinal misunderstanding; and I leave all of that in HIS capable hands.

=========================

There is a problem with us formulating the key to salvation: That gives us the perceived ability to control it and predict it.
When we start saying this group IS saved and that group is NOT saved, we are in that mode. We become the judge rather than God.

We should NEVER allow ourselves to be in that position.

Albion · May 3, 2017

shinoobi said:
Hi All,

I have something troubling me. I am perhaps asking this to the ones who believes the same as I do. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and the only way to the Farther is through Jesus Christ.

So I believe in the death, burial and physical body resurrection of Jesus Christ and He died for our sins and salvation. Nothing we can do can get us into Heaven, only by grace through your faith in Him can get you there.

Yes, there are many members here who agree with that completely.

Now, There are churches and denominations that has different beliefs. Some believe they have to do things to get saved and that you have to work to get into Heaven in a way. Others believe that the Bible must be interpreted spiritually and that also changes certain views on how to get saved. Others believe the Old Laws are still in place. They also reference the Bible to state their case and they truly believe in their ways.

That's all true.

I find it confusing/hard to believe/fighting within myself that these people who dedicate their life to God and in their hearts truly love God and life their life just for Him will technically not get saved according to the doctrine held by myself and others. They have been taught differently and they truly do not believe that they are incorrect, they read the Bible and confirm the way they do things. They are not maliciously or deliberately denying the Gospel as how we understand it. They truly believe the Gospel as they have been taught and how they read the Bible.

That's right, but perhaps they'll be saved just the same. If Faith by Grace is what saves, their works might just be superfluous. These people do believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior, after all.

They might believe Jesus was an example for us and they believe in Him but they try to live like Him and speak directly to God for assistance. Some believe more in their deeds than anything else.

Well, that is a different proposition. None of the well-known Christian denominations, whether Catholic or Protestant, tolerate that opinion because it denies the nature of Jesus Christ. So while there are such people, Unitarians or extreme liberals under some other label, they are relatively few in number by comparison.

Andy centek · Oct 26, 2018

shinoobi said:
Hi All,

I have something troubling me. I am perhaps asking this to the ones who believes the same as I do. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and the only way to the Farther is through Jesus Christ.

So I believe in the death, burial and physical body resurrection of Jesus Christ and He died for our sins and salvation. Nothing we can do can get us into Heaven, only by grace through your faith in Him can get you there.

Now, There are churches and denominations that has different beliefs. Some believe they have to do things to get saved and that you have to work to get into Heaven in a way. Others believe that the Bible must be interpreted spiritually and that also changes certain views on how to get saved. Others believe the Old Laws are still in place. They also reference the Bible to state their case and they truly believe in their ways.

Some of them also dedicate much more of their time to their belief and serve the God of the Bible the best way they can, they pray to Him and live their life just for Him.

I find it confusing/hard to believe/fighting within myself that these people who dedicate their life to God and in their hearts truly love God and life their life just for Him will technically not get saved according to the doctrine held by myself and others. They have been taught differently and they truly do not believe that they are incorrect, they read the Bible and confirm the way they do things. They are not maliciously or deliberately denying the Gospel as how we understand it. They truly believe the Gospel as they have been taught and how they read the Bible. They might believe Jesus was an example for us and they believe in Him but they try to live like Him and speak directly to God for assistance. Some believe more in their deeds than anything else.

If we keep with our doctrine that means they do not get saved and even if they in their hearts truly live for God it does not matter. I am struggling to make sense of this.

Then on the other hand you get those who deny God even exists and they mock God. They will also not get saved. How can one who truly in their heart tries and serve God to the best of their ability and understanding be just as "doomed" as someone who denies God?

This post is directed to those who hold the same Gospel as I do. I am not trying to cause a fight about who is correct and who is not. Even if the shoe was on the other side and our view was incorrect we would also be "doomed"

Andy centek · Oct 26, 2018

Blessings SHINOOBI

I just read your post and thought I would reply to it in the following manner.

First, You are correct in that Denomanations teach denominational teachings and not the truth in the Scriptures; if they did they would not have Denomanations!

The apostle Paul was appointed to teach the Gentile world by Jesus Christ Himself on the way down the Damascus road. So that pretty much seals up that Paul is correct in what he taught.

So then, what did Paul teach? Did he teach to be separated into varies Denominations of man, or did He teach unity in the Spirit of Christ Jesus? Indeed, He taught the latter.
So then comes man and decides that whoever thinks the way he thinks will be their follower will be correct! Who that it were that easy.

You are correct in that one should follow their belief in One Jesus Christ, and One God, His Father. Did Jesus ever teach to be separated into parts? Never, He taught just the oppisite, unity. Paul taught the same thing, unity, not dispersion.

Eph 4:1-5 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Does this show division of the spirit ? Hardly, it shows a struggle to stay in the UNITY of the Spirit, not be divided into parts; each one seeking their own idea of what should be taught.
This is a very brief discussion of the truth in unity. I pray it helps you in your walk in the Spirit of God. STAY ON THE ROAD!

Andy Centek

Albion · Oct 26, 2018

Andy, to what extent is being non-denominational NOT making oneself be one more part of those "parts" that you are opposed to??

BobRyan · Oct 27, 2018

Andy centek said:
Blessings SHINOOBI

I just read your post and thought I would reply to it in the following manner.

First, You are correct in that Denomanations teach denominational teachings and not the truth in the Scriptures; if they did they would not have Denomanations!

Which is what the Jews said about the Christian church as Paul admits he is a member of the "sect" that the Jews were opposing.

JesusYeshuaisLord · Nov 2, 2018

shinoobi said:
That is what I am not sure of. I am just struggling to really find an answer that I am comfortable with.

If one truly in their heart serves God to the best they can and know, should they also be saved?

Hi, sometimes (if not most of the time) truth is uncomfortable. I suggest looking for the truth and not what makes it comfortable otherwise we get to a prosperity or false gospel...John Piper has good sermons on this on Desiring God. I listen to one once but I can't remember the title of it :s look for sermons about God's glory and predestination and natural disasters (he mentioned this if I remember correctly). Probably sermons on Romans too would help.

Of the Kingdom · Nov 28, 2018

Salvation is the result of a one-to-one relationship between each person and the Holy Spirit. A good church with correct beliefs can surely help their members, but some will still neglect to let the message reach their heart and will never be born again. On the other hand, someone who attends a works-oriented church can still be reached by the Holy Spirit. That person may never understand some doctrines correctly, but will be guided by the Holy Spirit into whatever truth is needed to serve God.

Since none of our churches has every doctrine correct, it seems that all of us are in that position of depending on the Holy Spirit for understanding, while being helped by whatever truth is available in our congregation.

thecolorsblend · Nov 28, 2018

Of the Kingdom said:
none of our churches has every doctrine correct

What makes you say that?

Denomination/Doctrine differences

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