Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

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You said if we break the moral law we do not love our neighbour, you then gave three of the Ten Commandments as examples of that. Which means everyone breaks the command to love their neighbour(except you I guess) for Paul states the ten commandments are the letter that killls

Okay. There are no Ten Commandments (as a whole anymore). That was the Old Contract given to Israel. We are under a New Contract (i.e. New Covenant, or New Testament) that went into effect with Christ's death. Granted, 9 out of the 10 have been repeated in the New Contract (i.e. No Sabbath Command), but the Old Law is No More, See: 2 Corinthians 3:7-11, 2 Corinthians 3:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Colossians 2:14, Colossians 2:20-23, Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 7:18, Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 9:9-10, Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 9:16-17, Hebrews 10:8-9, Matthew 26:27-28, Matthew 27:20-51, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. We follow the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers within the pages of the New Testament (or New Contract). For the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

When Paul condemns the Law or works he is referring to the Old Law and not the New Law given to us by Jesus and His followers. This is no doubt why you think Paul was referring to all law. He was not referring to all law. Just read the context and it becomes obvious that Paul is referring to the Law of Moses.

Anyways, I do not have time to reply to the rest of your post. I do have to sleep and wake up tomorrow.

May God's goodness be upon you (even if we disagree on the Scriptures strongly).
 
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Karola

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We follow the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers within the pages of the New Testament, or New Contract (which obviously includes nine of the Ten Commandments based on what you have written).

As you appear to suggest you obey all of those commands, and therefore do not commit any sin, the gulf between us is too wide. Thanks for the chat
Bye
 
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BNR32FAN

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You are most welcome.
Pray over this and other verses like it, brother;
In situations that I am challenged by in Scripture, I pray and seek out a bunch of articles on the topic. I ask God to show me the truth, and He comes through for me (every time).

Well one thing I would point out is that God has many books. Psalms 69:28 refers to the book of the living which some theologians believe to be a book of those who are physically alive and to be blotted out would mean that person experiences a physical death. I’m not certain there is enough information to make an educated decision on this matter. So I think I’ll have to keep this in the realm of possibility but ultimately inconclusive.

“I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12‬
 
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bcbsr

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Then why don’t explain it to me. How do you reconcile the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 (which is the view you described) with 1 John 2:3-4?

In other words: How do explain how a believer cannot say they can overcome sin as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also say in 1 John 2:3-4 that the believer will obey God’s commands as a part of knowing God (who is salvation)?
If you read the advance study guides at 1John Sunday School Class Lessons 1John 1:8 concerns the claim of completely sinlessness. 1John 2:3-4 is talking about characteristic behavior, that which is typical of a person's lifestyle, which is not the same as sinless perfection. The verses are talking about two different things. If you want further elaboration read the study guides.
 
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Well one thing I would point out is that God has many books. Psalms 69:28 refers to the book of the living which some theologians believe to be a book of those who are physically alive and to be blotted out would mean that person experiences a physical death. I’m not certain there is enough information to make an educated decision on this matter. So I think I’ll have to keep this in the realm of possibility but ultimately inconclusive.

“I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12‬

In Psalms 69:28: The mention of this book identifies it as "the book of the living" and, that it is understood as kept (that is, ultimately only) for the righteous.

"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." (Psalms 69:28).​

The land of the living is not exclusive to the righteous. The verse prior says do not let them come into God's righteousness.

"Add iniquity to their iniquity, and let them not come into Your righteousness." (Psalms 69:27).

Source used:
jarom.net
(Note: Not all views expressed by this author reflect my particular views or beliefs; I am merely in agreement in the short paragraph above).
 
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But you don't need a saviour from sin if you never commit sin do you.

Okay, again, obeying God is a part of receiving God's grace (or salvation).

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him:

For Hebrews 5:9 says,

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"​

How do you explain this verse?

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).​

Walking in the light is loving your brother and or keeping God's commandments.

"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." (1 John 2:10).

We know from Paul that keeping the Moral Law is the equivalent of loving your neighbor.

8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there beany other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).​

So getting back to 1 John 1:7, we learn that walking in the light is keeping God's commandments or loving one's neighbor (or brother). So if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin. We have to be walking in the light (obeying) in order to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us.

As for the following replies, you said that these are sins that you struggle with. So I will address them with Scripture.

You said:
You never get angry unless you have a really good just cause,

"...man's anger does not produce the righteousness of God." (James 1:20).

"In your anger do not sin" (Ephesians 4:26).​

Rather than post all the verses here on anger, I think it is best you check them all out the rest of them for yourself here:


But needless to say that anger is something that is not commonly associated with the righteous. We are told not to make friends with someone who is easily provoked and made angry quickly. We are told that the anger of men does not produce the righteousness of God. Meaning, we cannot live righteously in this life if we get angry. This truth applies to me just as much as it applies to you.

You said:
you never have negative thoughts about anyone.

Well, thinking that somebody is bad because they sin is not unrighteous. That would be considered as negative thoughts towards a person and it would not be bad in God's sight. It is when we don't care for them and do not love them in any way by us hating them instead of desiring to see them saved and in walking in righteousness or in God's good ways instead of sin. In other words, we are to hate the sin and not the sinner.

We are told to:
"Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good." (Romans 12:9).​

So if I abhor the sins of a man (i.e. negative thoughts towards them), that does not mean I am sinning. It is only when a believer hates a man or another person is where it become wrong (Whereby you don't desire them to be saved and or you want bad things to happen to them instead of good things from our Lord). All deserve God's grace and mercy. For he sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

You perfectly at all times love everyone you meet, including those who may be unkind to you or persecute you.

Does the Bible say that we have to perfectly love in order to be saved? I just see the Bible saying that we have to love our neighbor as a part of eternal life.

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." (Ephesians 4:25-28).​

This do, and you shall live.

This do, and you shall live.

It's not....

"Hey, believe on Jesus only and you shall live."​

As for not loving others who persecute you:

Well, we do have to love them enough at least to forgive them and to wish them to be saved (Whereby we would pray for them at some point). To not forgive, means the Father will not forgive us (See Matthew 6:15). To not care for lost souls means we are not loving our neighbor as ourself who was once also a sinner like them (Who hurt people at one time).

The spread of the gospel should be our desire for all lost souls. To turn back from wanting others to be saved means we are not fit (worthy) for the Kingdom of God.

"No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).​

You said:
You never have any impure thoughts.

Jesus says,

28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).​

If someone stole something of yours you would gladly offer them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them. And if anyone asked to borrow from you, you would gladly give to them, without ever expecting anything back.

"Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions." (Luke 12:15).

19 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Matthew 6:19-20).

5 "...men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be there with content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition." (1 Timothy 6:5-9).​

Do you believe verse 6 is even a possibility for your life?
Many teach that you cannot achieve that.
But that is not what the Bible says here above.
Try doing a study on holy living in the Bible (from an unbiased viewpoint and you will be shocked). The Bible does not teach that we can commit grievous sin and still be saved. One of the first lies in the Garden by the devil was his saying,

"You shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4).​

This lie was said to Eve in regards to her and Adam disobeying God's commandment. Today, the devil has not changed his tactics. The same lie is being pushed in our present day world. "You shall not surely die." (See Genesis 3:4).
 
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BNR32FAN

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In Psalms 69:28: The mention of this book identifies it as "the book of the living" and, that it is understood as kept (that is, ultimately only) for the righteous.

"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." (Psalms 69:28).​

The land of the living is not exclusive to the righteous. The verse prior says do not let them come into God's righteousness.

"Add iniquity to their iniquity, and let them not come into Your righteousness." (Psalms 69:27).

Source used:
jarom.net
(Note: Not all views expressed by this author reflect my particular views or beliefs; I am merely in agreement in the short paragraph above).

Yes but if the book of the Living is referring to physical life then it could also be linked to righteousness and unrighteousness. Ananias and Saphira died a physical death due to unrighteousness.
 
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Yes but if the book of the Living is referring to physical life then it could also be linked to righteousness and unrighteousness. Ananias and Saphira died a physical death due to unrighteousness.

No. It is saying, let them not be written among the righteous in Psalms 69:28. If this was the book of the land of the living, this would not make any sense because the land of the living includes both righteous and wicked people. The book of Life (the Lamb's book of life) is a book that only contains the righteous.
 
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If you read the advance study guides at 1John Sunday School Class Lessons 1John 1:8 concerns the claim of completely sinlessness. 1John 2:3-4 is talking about characteristic behavior, that which is typical of a person's lifestyle, which is not the same as sinless perfection. The verses are talking about two different things. If you want further elaboration read the study guides.

If you cannot give me a short answer in a few sentences that means you really do not have one or you are not willing to give it freely and or openly for all to understand quickly. I am not going to spend hours or months trying to figure out what you believe by reading more of your commentaries that I believe is against what the Bible says. That would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack that more than likely does not even exist. In other words, I am not into wild goose chases. Just tell it to me straight in a few simple words, friend.

As for Sinless Perfectionism:

Well, I agree, Sinless Perfection (or Entire Sanctification, or the complete perfection of a believer in every little action they make) does not deal with salvation. However, what you probably will disagree with me on is that not all sins are the same. There is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death (See 1 John 5:16-17). In 1 John 5, the context is talking about confessed sin (i.e. sins not unto death) vs. unconfessed sin (i.e. sins that lead to death). For John talks about how we need to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9), which is in view of John telling us also to: "Sin not." This lines up with what Jesus says. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we see that the prodigal son was willing to admit that he sinned to his father and before all of heaven (See Luke 15:18, and Luke 15:21). 1 John 1:9 is in view of forsaking sin as per 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 2:1, 1 John 2:3-4. This lines up with what Jesus says in John 5:14, and John 8:11 where he tells people to, "sin no more." 1 John 5:2 says, "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

Anyways, we can see other kinds of "sins not unto death" in the Bible. Baptism is a command that if disobeyed (sin) does not lead to spiritual death (See 1 Peter 3:21 and compare the words "filth of the flesh" with the words "filthiness of the flesh" in 2 Corinthians 7:1).

In fact, to see how your view is not Biblical, 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD. In your belief, the word "all" does not mean "all" in the text and so you have to do a work around or explain it away in some way.

But again, as I said before "Sinless Perfection" is not a salvation issue. The Bible does not speak in general terms that if we are not perfect, we will go to hell. The only instance where I see the word "perfect" associated with everlasting life is in regards to one particular action. In Matthew 19, when Jesus told the rich man to sell all that he has and give it to the poor and come and follow Him, it is associated with him in being perfect (i.e. a single action of perfection and not an ultimate destiny in being perfect in every way). Granted, keep in mind that Zacchaeus was rich and yet he was only willing to give away half of his good and yet Jesus said that salvation had come to his house (See Luke 19:1-10). But neither Jesus nor His followers ever said that we have to be perfectly righteous in every way of all God's commands in the New Testament in order to be saved.

Not overcoming grievous sin in this life can be a salvation issue:

Now, there are grievous sins that can keep a person from inheriting the Kingdom of God (like murder, adultery, theft, hate, etc.) (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8). Believers can be unfit (or unworthy) of the Kingdom of God if they look back after putting their hand to the plow (in regards to spreading the gospel) (See Luke 9:62). If a believer does not help the poor in this life, they can be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46). Please keep in mind I am saying these things in regards to believers that are able to live out their faith. For I do believe a person can be saved on their death bed. This is why I believe we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But those who live out their faith, they will exhibit the proof (works) that they have a genuine faith in Jesus (and or that Christ lives inside of them). If a person justifies sin in some way, it shows that they have not genuinely repented or had a real heart felt Godly sorrow over their sin with Christ (Whereby they would turn from those sins).

Anyways, whether you agree or disagree, may God's goodness and peace be upon you this fine day (that the Lord has made).
 
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bcbsr

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If you cannot give me a short answer in a few sentences that means you really do not have one or you are not willing to give it freely and or openly for all to understand quickly.
The answer I gave was 3 sentences, while the response you gave was many more sentences. Consequently you're saying that "you really do not have one or you are not willing to give it freely and or openly for all to understand quickly."
 
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The answer I gave was 3 sentences, while the response you gave was many more sentences. Consequently you're saying that "you really do not have one or you are not willing to give it freely and or openly for all to understand quickly."

You pointed me to a commentary. I didn't do that. I explained it for you and I told it to you straight up. I did not have you go through some website on some wild goose chase to figure out what I am trying to say. If you replied later with an answer, I did not see it yet. I am busy with another project and have not read all longer posts in this thread (because I do not have time to reply to them yet).
 
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BNR32FAN

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No. It is saying, let them not be written among the righteous in Psalms 69:28. If this was the book of the land of the living, this would not make any sense because the land of the living includes both righteous and wicked people. The book of Life (the Lamb's book of life) is a book that only contains the righteous.

Or it could be saying let them be blotted out of the book of the living (physical life) and not be written with the righteous (book of life spiritual life). Basically he could be saying let the die and go to hell.
 
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Or it could be saying let them be blotted out of the book of the living (physical life) and not be written with the righteous (book of life spiritual life). Basically he could be saying let the die and go to hell.

While He could be referring to a book of life (as in reference to a physical record of who is alive and who is dead), we need another testimony of this particular book in Scripture.
 
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The answer I gave was 3 sentences, while the response you gave was many more sentences. Consequently you're saying that "you really do not have one or you are not willing to give it freely and or openly for all to understand quickly."

My simple short explanation on
1 John 1:8 in light of 1 John 2:3-4 is this:

1 John 1:8 is a gnostic belief John was warning the brethren about by those who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). It was a false belief that says, "sin does not exist" or "sin is an illusion." The real way to deal with sin is not to ignore it if one does sin, but they are to confess it to be forgiven (1 John 1:9).

1 John 2:3 is saying we can have an assurance in knowing God if we find that we are keeping His commandments.

1 John 2:4 is saying that the person who says that they know GOD and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth (i.e. the truth = Jesus) is not in them.

But if we are to take the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 that you believe that says that we are always breaking God's commandments in some way, we are violating a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4.​

Now, the ball is in your court to try and explain (in as few as words as possible - like I just did) in how to reconcile 1 John 1:8 with 1 John 2:3-4.

I am not expecting you to resolve this one because no OSAS Proponent has ever been able to resolve this one without butchering the text beyond what it actually says plainly. But if you feel you have the answer, then by all means, please share it with us. Note: If you feel your commentary resolves this, then please just copy and paste that portion of the commentary here on the forums. From what I had seen, you did not resolves this in your commentary.
 
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While He could be referring to a book of life (as in reference to a physical record of who is alive and who is dead), we need another testimony of this particular book in Scripture.

Yes that is a good point. Although my intention is just to say that both of our views are inconclusive at this time. You could very well be right and your case does have strong evidence but neither of us have undeniable proof.
 
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Now, the ball is in your court to try and explain (in as few as words as possible - like I just did) in how to reconcile 1 John 1:8 with 1 John 2:3-4.
I already did. You just didn't listen. Here, for your convenience I'll just cut in paste what I already said in this thread.

1John 1:8 concerns the claim of completely sinlessness. 1John 2:3-4 is talking about characteristic behavior, that which is typical of a person's lifestyle, which is not the same as sinless perfection. The verses are talking about two different things.

Furthermore you also slander me by making the claim, and I quote, "But if we are to take the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 that you believe that says that we are always breaking God's commandments in some way," Despite the fact that I had already told you that 1John 1:8 is about sinless perfection.

Are you saying that sinless perfection means that we are always breaking God's commandments? Or did you bear false witness against me?
 
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BCsenior

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Another passage has been brought
to my attention recently


“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again …
I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins. You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality, and eagerness for lustful pleasure.” (2 Corinthians 12:21)

Immediately following this (in 2 Corinthians 13:1-10), Paul warns and threatens: if the habitual sinners do not repent, he must exercise his authority to punish them!

How different in most churches today ... where most pastors couldn't care less if the members continue to be habitual sinners!
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes, the NT warns us in many verses that
salvation is a process ... by which we prove
that we are worthy to be invited into heaven.
None of these spiritual Truths are taught in most churches.
Can you figure out why?

4 times in John 14 alone, Jesus says (I'm paraphrasing):
"Those who love Me obey My commandments."
And I ask you ...
Is anyone invited into heaven who does not love Jesus?
Going one step further ...
Is anyone invited into heaven who does not obey (keep)
Jesus' commandments?
Why is your assumption that someone who sins does not love Jesus.

That is some assumption.
 
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Why is your assumption that someone who sins does not love Jesus.
That is some assumption.
IMO, Jesus is saying:
"IF you really love and appreciate what I did for you,
you will prove it by doing what I am asking of you!"

And this is: obey His commandments!

Not my opinion, but what the NT screams out:
No one involved in habitual unrepentant sin
is going to heaven!
 
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IMO, Jesus is saying:
"IF you really love and appreciate what I did for you,
you will prove it by doing what I am asking of you!"

And this is: obey His commandments!

Not my opinion, but what the NT screams out:
No one involved in habitual unrepentant sin
is going to heaven!
Are we saved by faith, or by works?
 
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