2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
Peter, what you can't seem to understand is that believers with doctrine, Praise The Lord Jesus Christ and His works..........Not our own. Our works are rewarded, His WORKS save us.

Jesus's works save us? Which ones and how?
A passive faith, Jesus does it all, and we just sit by the pool and enjoy the ride.
People say believe Jesus. What should you believe and what is the difference between a demon agreeing that Jesus is who He is, and actually being saved?

People say we have the Holy Spirit immediately we believe.
Odd idea. So demons have the Holy Spirit immediately they recognise Jesus is the Son of God.

Belief. I hear the gospel, and I like it. I want to know more, I like this guy Jesus. Do I have to do anything, in relation to my life, how I live, what I think about things, how I behave or is it all just a nod and a wink?

I go to church, fit in, sing the songs, muddle through, even read my bible at a pinch, find praying hard, not sure I know anything, but thats ok, I do believe. I even cast out demons, and pray for healing and things happen, so I must be on the right track. And boy do I kick those self righteous judgemental types, so pious and up themselves. Who are they to judge me, I know I am saved......

What is the difference between a weed and a stalk of wheat? Everything. One is real the other just walks in the shadow of the true wheat.

Jesus says we are alive in Him, one, brothers and sisters in Christ. But my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, because Jesus has removed the barriers between us, healed, cleansed and made us whole, I do not need doctrines to tell me what we are and how we are one, we are literally that. Amen, and thank you for your ministry and encouragement. Those who walk with closed hearts will never understand because that is who they are.

JLB777 · Oct 25, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Correct.

But it cannot be said that such a believer no longer has eternal life in them.

A brother who hates his brother, refers to two believers; people who have eternal life in them.

If one of theses brothers begins to hate his brother for whatever reason, he does not have eternal life in him any longer.

If you believe a brother can hate and still have eternal life, then it’s up to you to provide a scripture that teaches this unbiblical doctrine.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

So far you only have stated your opinion in this matter, which further proves your teaching is from man and not God.

This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. 2 John 6

JLB

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

If a man or woman does not know love, or does not love anyone else, can they claim to know God at all?

John would declare no. But the truth is if they open up and put down the defensive barricades, stop hiding the hurt, begin to feel and weep, to know they can be loved, and there are people who do love them, they will discover rather than not knowing love, they have forgotten what they were born with and just buried it too deep to let the life of Jesus meet them.

And the problem with the dead, the life they have they declare is the life everyone else has, not knowing this is simply not true. But as we only know ourselves, who else can bring revelation to their hearts other than the Holy Spirit, if they are willing to open the door.

Loren T. · Oct 25, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you believe that Jesus gives the free gift of eternal life for everyone who believes in Him for salvation?

Now, do you believe that whoever He gives the free gift of eternal life shall never perish?

Of course... But a gift is something that can be refused or given back.

People that stray away are app to say that they fell into false belief. The reality is that they listened to it, and fed the false belief until it became thier reality. Paul makes this point in Galatians... If we believe the falsehood, Christ will be of no use to us. Yes, Believers can fall into error and become non Believers.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2018

I said:
"Only if John had left the word "abiding" out of the verse.
But he didn't.
So all you do is keep showing your lack of discernment about what "abiding" means."

BCsenior said:
"Abiding in Jesus" is the same as being "in Christ".

No it's not. Impossible.

Here's why: Jesus commanded His 11 disciples to "abide in Him" and then He would "abide in them" in John 15. Per your misunderstanding, being in union with Christ is something that we achieve or cause. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Eph 1:13,14 tells us HOW one is in union with Christ; through the sealing with the Holy Spirit. This is God's work, not our own.

What we are responsible for is maintaining fellowship with the Lord, which is what "abiding" refers to. Our relationship with the Lord is permanent, just like the relationship between parent and child.

But fellowship describes the quality of that relationship.

And Paul gave us 2 commands that describe what being OUT OF fellowship looks like:

1. stop grieving the Holy Spirit - Eph 4:30
2. stop quenching the Holy Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

When any believer is doing either of these things, they are NOT "abiding in Him". Not by a long shot. And Jesus cannot "abide with him/her" when they are doing these things.

But, these terms mean quite different things
than what you believe they mean.
They are talking about BACs who are "the faithful",
i.e. those who walk the walk and don't just talk the talk.

Define "BAC". And explain these "different things" you claim.

Paul wrote ONLY to "the faithful" at Ephesus & Colossae.

Oh, please. Not that tired claim again.

As if nothing Paul wrote to those 2 churches has any relevance to unfaithful believers? Don't be silly.

Do you really believe that Paul's message to those 2 churches was materially different than to all the other churches He wrote to?

a. Corinthians
b. Galatians
c. Philippians
d. Thessalonians

There are parallels throughout the epistles, so don't give this song-and-dance about either Ephesus and Colossae being only for certain believers.

What about the command Paul gave the Ephesians about stopping grieving the Hoy Spirit in 4:30. That alone shoots down your theory. But there's more.

Why would He write this to "the faithful"?
4:17 - So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.

The Greek wording here in red means to STOP doing so.

Just read 5:1-6 and tell me why he would write those things to "the faithful" only at Ephesus.
1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children
2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

All of the "promises" were ONLY to these "faithful" ones!

What you have conveniently ignored are all the warnings that are there as well.

No one is "abiding in Christ" who ONLY believes in Him,
has faith and trust in Him. Obedience is required.

Yes, correct. Believing in Christ seals the relationship with Him as a child of God.

But, just as in human families, the goal is fellowship between members of the family, so in our spiritual family of God, we are to be in fellowship with the Lord, which is the only way to bear fruit (John 15).

Now, for each and every point you disagree with, please address such point and explain why my point is wrong.

Thanks.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
My friend, you desire to continue this conversation.
May I ask, as you seem to want to deny emotions are involved in love and Jesus, do you love your mother?

You seriously misunderstand all of my posts to you. It seems your point is only about emotions. I explained that biblical love is an ACTiON, not an emotion, but you merely ignored that point, which is typical of emotional people.

Your posts are full of emotional words and examples. I gave you many verses about the IMPORTANCE of KNOWLEDGE (which you seem allergic to) which is required for spiritual growth.

There is NO spiritual growth through emotions. The sooner you learn that, the sooner you will benefit.

I true loved my granny, a true woman of God. She was faithful to the Lord through difficult and trying times. She knew how to reach out to young people and care. Her faith melted my heart. In Jesus I found a similar heart.

This is all nice and sweetness and lightness. But the Bible requires KNOWLEDGE for spiritual growth.

My mother was hurt and deeply defended. She has been cut off from her emotions all her life, a ship adrift, relying on others to define what was nice and what was not. And my deepest friend, my Lord and Master Jesus, I saw His death, His pain, His suffering for me and it makes me weep. Such a price and also such a debt.

Here we go with another example of emotions.

To know Jesus is to be touched deeper than anyone else can ever reach, friend, wife, brother, mother.

No, to know Jesus is to KNOW His word.

Is there literally no joy in your life, or dancing or celebration, just a dull monotone of facts and positions, like an accountant on a bad day.......

That is pretty much how a person all tied up in their emotions views KNOWLEDGE.

Sad.

Do you not know Paul and the Apostles were all men of the heart, singing praises in prison, in homes, bringing Gods peace and joy whereever they went.

Paul was the greatest evangelist in the history of the world. You know why? KNOWLEDGE. You know where He actually got His KNOWLEDGE? From the Lord directly.

Gal 1:12 - I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

This is all emotional, because literally they really, openly cared.

They cared that people receive the KNOWLEDGE of Scripture.
Which is why Paul wrote this to Timothy:
2 Tim 3:15 - and how from youth you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Paul talkes time and again about grief, tears, desire, love, encouragement.

All this because of his desire to impart knowledge of Scripture to others.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
Those Christian’s who hate their brother, no longer have eternal life in them.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
JLB

Oh, so now you're subtracting from Scripture. Your statement above does NOT MATCH what John wrote.

Such Christians "no longer have eternal life ABIDING in them". You left out the "abiding" word. Why did you do that?

Why do you assume that the addition by John of that word doesn't change the sentence? It sure does. And the reason has been explained to you.

But you are married to your own opinions and ideas and not interested in Scripture.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2018

I said:
"Do you believe that Jesus gives the free gift of eternal life for everyone who believes in Him for salvation?

Now, do you believe that whoever He gives the free gift of eternal life shall never perish?"

Loren T. said:
Of course... But a gift is something that can be refused or given back.

What you fail to understand is that there are NO VERSES that teach this, or even suggest this.

Here is something to ponder: in John 10:28 Jesus said this:
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

Did you notice any conditions on the recipients of eternal life in order to never perish? No, of course you didn't notice any, because there aren't any.

If your opinion were true, then this is what Jesus would HAVE HAD TO SAY;
"I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY DON'T GIVE IT BACK, they shall never perish."

Or, He would have had to say:
"I give them eternal life, and IF THEY DON'T GIVE IT BACK, they shall never perish."

Now, go find any verse that tells that we have the power, authority, etc to give back our eternal life.

otoh, why don't you just realize that there is NOTHING that the believer can do to UN-do the work of God in saving us?

btw, don't you realize that those who refuse the gift NEVER have it? That describes every unbeliever in history. So that bit of fluff isn't even in play here.

So, unless you can find any verse that talks about giving the gift of eternal life back to God, you don't have a point.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2018

JLB777 said:
A brother who hates his brother, refers to two believers; people who have eternal life in them
If one of theses brothers begins to hate his brother for whatever reason, he does not have eternal life in him any longer.
If you believe a brother can hate and still have eternal life, then it’s up to you to provide a scripture that teaches this unbiblical doctrine.
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
So far you only have stated your opinion in this matter, which further proves your teaching is from man and not God.
This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. 2 John 6
JLB

Don't you know that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

It takes a lot of gall to disagree with Jesus and deny what He said.

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
You seriously misunderstand all of my posts to you

I am speaking a different language to you.
Conviction, guilt, context, empathy, how one focuses in life is an emotional skill. It seems you do not posses such a perspective.

What you might not be aware of is emotional conviction is what grounds us. If emotionally life told you suicide was better, you could not do anything. Closing oneself down, cutting of communication would be ones survival strategy. Whole sections of our brains are built for empathy, for tapping into group emotional experiences.

You seem to believe this just does not exist and is not part of our relationship with our Lord.

So if you want me to respect you, please tell me who you love, from your heart, who would flatten you if they were taken away.

If you cannot do this, then we have nothing left to share, because you are so closed down, you could not tell the difference between a minor motivation problem and deep trauma and need for counselling, or how to encourage a brother or sister with an apt word.

God bless you.

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

How to spot an emotionally blunt individual? Share a deep thing in your life and the way it stirred you, and their response is just, that was nice.

If you know the meaning of mental illness, the tearing of the soul and the trauma emotions can drag them into, to be free of such things is life, is normality, is heaven rather than living in pain, trauma, a kind of hell.

Most sinners live in this lonely deserted place, putting on a mask while being lost and unknown behind it. To become a child in Christs hands is to be aware of this and letting the Lord bring peace into ones soul.

We have a suspicion that closed down people are not really alive, just manufactured from a factory for placid unresponsive individuals.
For someone who sees in colour, their black and white outlook is just said, and denial of what we are in life and in Christ.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2018

I said:
"You seriously misunderstand all of my posts to you"

LightLoveHope said:
I am speaking a different language to you.

No, we both use English. It's your focus that is different from mine.

Conviction, guilt, context, empathy, how one focuses in life is an emotional skill.

Says whom?

It seems you do not posses such a perspective.

No, it seems your "emotional skills" lack the discernment (thinking) to understand what the Bible says.

What you might not be aware of is emotional conviction is what grounds us.

Where do you get this psycho-babble stuff?

If emotionally life told you suicide was better, you could not do anything.

Wrong. What I would do is "get a grip". And "life" doesn't tell us anything. It's how we view life. Those with an emotional bias handle life far less able than do those who view life from an objective standpoint.

Closing oneself down, cutting of communication would be ones survival strategy.

Why just go to the extreme here? Who said anything about these things, other than you?

Whole sections of our brains are built for empathy, for tapping into group emotional experiences.

Actually, the brain is wired to THINK, not emote. Yes, the brain records emotions, but emotions do NOT THINK. And that is dangerous.

You know what mobs are made up of? Emotions gone amuck. That's where emotions get you.

You seem to believe this just does not exist and is not part of our relationship with our Lord.

Because of your excessively emotional orientation, you simply do not see objectively where I am coming from.

God gave us emotions for enjoyment. But because of the fall of Adam, we now get to experience negative emotions.

In a perfect world, (pre-fall Garden of Eden) there were no negative emotions, and emotions couldn't get either Adam and Eve into trouble. But since the fall, unless one is objective (thinks), they can get into all kinds of trouble.

So if you want me to respect you, please tell me who you love, from your heart, who would flatten you if they were taken away.

The Lord Jesus Christ, who died for all my sins and gave me the gift of eternal life so that I shall never perish.

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

Hey guys, heaven is an exam. Wrong theology, no entry. Wrong words or confession, no entry. You need to learn these test verses, keep them in your back pocket. God sees the heart and not just the head.

Opps. God sees Jesus's heart because God cannot see you, you rotten lost sinner, so you just need the right words to get Jesus to deputise and make sure your name is written in the book. But if it is not your heart because it is lost and rotten, and it is only in your head, then surely you are actually just dead.

The articles in the temple were only washed on the outside to make them Holy? Really. You think that is what scripture teaches.

Let us think about sin. Are they intellectual ideas or emotional, visseral, living?

For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'
Mark 7:21-23

So of this list which are intellectual belief problems and which are emotional disfunctional issues?

So if our problem is emotional and what we look for to aspire to, how is the solution intellectual beliefs and ideas which leave the heart alone. Now for those who refuse to admit their own disfunctional emotions and desires, and want to appear ok, ofcourse everything is just beliefs, but that way is literally hypocracy and death.

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Where do you get this psycho-babble stuff?

This is my point to you my friend. You are a construction of repressed emotions and background, certain you know what belief in Christ is, want to lecture me and put me right, while your heart cannot even say one word, or have one Halleluyah.

Because we live in different worlds, and every button I press for you is just a dull response, do you have passions at all?

You define positive emotions good, negative emotions bad.
So grief, tears, mourning is bad, while praise, celebration, happiness is good.

As babies, we learnt to laugh, to giggle, to enjoy, and when things go wrong and we feel bad to cry and complain. Like a sea these feelings ebb and flow, and when things get way to complex, we bury and forget we even felt anything. But that is the world, the place of bondage, lostness and passions out of control.

Jesus did not come to keep us in the bondage and a place of being out of control. He gave us healing, the Holy Spirit, peace, joy, love, self control so emotions are the expression of who we are and what He has done.

So my friend, you have much still to learn about yourself, and a whole language of healing and resurrection ahead if your faith is strong enough to go that far. Many I have met are just not able to see the cross and its promise of true realisation and freedom. God bless you.

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

I want to share a story.
My son was very young. 2 years old. He was learning to walk. He was happy, success was filling his sight. He stumbled and fell. His demeanor changed, and tears flowed. As his mum and dad, we picked him up, made sure he was fine, comforted him, praised his progress and helped him have another go. For this young man it was like life, exploring this difficult world knowing though it was safe.

Now another observer just laughed at our son. They could not understand why we jumped to his aid, and helped him through the trauma of failure and putting things in their right place. For them there was no connection or bond, no desire to help, protect or see some flourish.

Now who was showing love and empathy, and who was cutoff and cynical, believing life is just a series of painful events with no safe place?

Jesus is significant because He is our safe place, eternal, secure, true and the King, the ultimate reality. But if one does not value or appreciate a true gift of love and support, of safety and value, how can one claim to know this King, the lover of our souls who calls us to love others as He loved us, to the extent of giving our lives for our brothers. But for them, this idea is so extreme that it must be a joke.

In this is the spiritual divide made more obvious. It is no joke, and many brothers and sisters in Christ have done exactly this, to express their deep gratitude to the King and as a hope that others might see who He really is.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Hey guys, heaven is an exam. Wrong theology, no entry.

No it isn't. Please stop pushing your emotional biases. Heaven is where God lives. And the entrance into heaven isn't based on any exam.

It's based on possessing eternal life, which isn't given for "passing" any exam.

It's given to those who have entrusted their souls to Jesus Christ because He died for them and saves those who believe in Him for it.

Wrong words or confession, no entry. You need to learn these test verses, keep them in your back pocket. God sees the heart and not just the head.

The Bible equates head and heart. There is no difference.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 25, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
This is my point to you my friend. You are a construction of repressed emotions and background, certain you know what belief in Christ is, want to lecture me and put me right, while your heart cannot even say one word, or have one Halleluyah.

Oh, so now you're a psychologist of some kind, huh? lol

Because we live in different worlds, and every button I press for you is just a dull response, do you have passions at all?

Just admit that you prefer emotions over knowledge of God's Word. Go ahead.

You define positive emotions good, negative emotions bad.

You can reverse it all you want, if that makes you feel good about it.

So grief, tears, mourning is bad, while praise, celebration, happiness is good.

Go ahead and reverse it if it makes you feel better.

So my friend, you have much still to learn about yourself, and a whole language of healing and resurrection ahead if your faith is strong enough to go that far. Many I have met are just not able to see the cross and its promise of true realisation and freedom. God bless you.

Here's one more thing that you've totally misdiagnosed about me, Dr. FeelGood. I see the cross way more clearly than you do. Because I have knowledge about it, and not just feelings about it.

While you emote away, I understand all that occurred on the cross and why it had to.

btw, no one has ever emoted themselves into heaven. Entering heaven requires knowledge of HOW one gains entrance, not how one "feels" about things.

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No it isn't. Please stop pushing your emotional biases. Heaven is where God lives. And the entrance into heaven isn't based on any exam.

It's based on possessing eternal life, which isn't given for "passing" any exam.

It's given to those who have entrusted their souls to Jesus Christ because He died for them and saves those who believe in Him for it.

The Bible equates head and heart. There is no difference.

Jesus died for them. What do you mean by this? How does an individual claim He died for them as opposed to the guy next to him?
Did not Jesus die for everyone and got rid of sin past present and future? So He died for everyone, and in your view sin is no longer an issue for judgement. Except this then means it is not an individual act for us or me as a sinner, it was a general action irrespective of my faith or belief in Him. But in this situation, how is our faith different from anyone else, and what is the belief in? Surely if sin is removed, then nothing else is left. People then invent this idea they believe in Jesus above the cleansing from sin, which is not actually scriptural. It is the forgiveness of sins, the sprinkling of His blood that cleanses our consciences from guilt and delivers pure and holy, except this would appear to apply to everyone on the planet, because guilt is about sin and not redemption. So it get very confusing when one invents these extreme ideas outside the theology provided in scripture.

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Entering heaven requires knowledge of HOW one gains entrance, not how one "feels" about things.

As I suggested you are an exam based beleiver, where knowledge is your foundation.
My foundation is being born again as a whole loving, cleansed beleiver, in both mind body and spirit. My point to you is without your heart being transformed you miss the power of the cross. I do not say this because I am arguing a point, I am stating the reality of what we are in Christ.

Do you have love in your heart, the desire that reaches out to another for them to find life, love and freedom in Jesus. It would appear to me, not only this is not language you would use, you do not know what I am talking about. You see this happening in someone else, but it is not your story.

I have to share, it is these things that define how we see Jesus and His words. I do not devalue your perspective, except when you decide I have to view things your way or I am somehow not in the Lord. This makes me want to understand why you say such a thing.
Why? Because that is how love works, reaching out to others, to understand, reach out and minister grace.

I know though you recognize what I am sharing you would never be there. That for me is why I walked this road. I saw people who knew faith in words, but it did not touch their hearts or lives. For me that was like having a car and never driving it. So I have spent my life learning what I am and what love really is. So you are my challenge and the reminder of why I started looking and desiring to translate life within to life on the outside.

LightLoveHope · Oct 25, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I see the cross way more clearly than you do

Did you feel Jesus's pain, as they drove the nails home? Do you feel your incapacity to get close to this level of chosen sacrifice? Do you know I am one of those shouting crucify to get rid of this do gooder, who just wanted to show me up?
Did you hear the words, I forgive you? I did and it changed my life.

I remember wondering why people were not broken before the King, knowing their debt and the wonder of service to such a loving Lord as Him. I cannot say what others have experienced because it does not matter, I just want to encourage them more to see who Jesus truly is, His words, His ministry, His life, His vision and His desire to purchase a people from this world.

So I say to you my dear friend who desires to honour Jesus, God bless you, may His peace and love flow from you, Amen.

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