Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
"These pastors are teaching greasy grace,
no accountability, OSAS, etc. usually
because they care more:
--- for the praises of men than those of God!
--- for money than anything else!
and etc."
Good bye.
WOW! ... Musta touched a raw nerve!
Maybe he's one of them.
Or has been deceived by one of them.
I actually thought that everyone knew
the church today is in a big mess.
 
Upvote 0

Karola

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2018
495
174
Munich
✟12,045.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Do some of you actually believe that
God is only a God of love? How deceived you are!
Just for starters, the NT warns us that He chastises
those of His own who rebel, disobey, backslide, etc.
Truly, many many have been horrified at how asleep
the churches are today!
And WOW, I myself have found a couple of sleepy kids!
In your churches, you do accept conversions of young teenagers don't you? I assume you tell them if they have any impure thoughts they are committing sin and are in danger of the fires of hell. For Gods laws/ways apply to all the same, as I am sure you would agree
 
Upvote 0

Karola

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2018
495
174
Munich
✟12,045.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Karola,
Why don't you start your own thread?
This one is about ...
Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins
That's a great deflection!! I was only responding to your post. It does reflect on your view Jesus only died for past sins. Therefore, it would be your duty, bearing in mind your beliefs to tell young teenagers they are in danger of the fires of hell if they have impure thoughts. But you would not tell them that would you. So what you are writing on here, is not the reality of your life outside of here.
The same as you continually quote:
If you love me obey my commandments
And you make it a salvational issue when you yourself do not even try and obey each and every literal command of Christ.
What is the point in preaching a message you yourself do not live by?
Should I quote Matthew 23?
 
Upvote 0

Karola

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2018
495
174
Munich
✟12,045.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Actually, many fundamentalist churches only have a couple of main differences from the sda church. They both preach a message they do not live up to in their own lives. Preaching the letter and demanding it is fully obeyed results in a lack of compassion for others. People should remember Jesus words:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matt7:2
 
Upvote 0

Karola

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2018
495
174
Munich
✟12,045.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I succumbed to all of this once. People preaching a message they did not live up[ to in their own lives. They gave the impression on Sundays they were virtually perfect people when they were not. Putting on an act on Sundays helps no one.
Basically these people believe, if they do not get drunk, smoke, use foul language, have extra marital affairs, they tithe their money, read the bible and attend all the church meetings they are living acceptable holy lives.
The Pharisees of Jesus day would have passed all those tests easily, yet Jesus told them they did not even know his Father
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,496
7,861
...
✟1,192,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And Paul also said in Romans, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

As trusting God is in opposition to working for salvation, one must not work to be saved, but rather trust God to save them. That's what I read.

This is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace). A person needs to first repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord) and trust in (or receive) Jesus by faith to be saved (before they can obey or bring forth "works of faith"). Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." Skip back a chapter and you will read this:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).​

Paul says to the Galatians in Galatians 5:2 that if they seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit them nothing. Circumcision is of the Law of Moses and not the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. This is why Paul continues to talk about how if they are justified by the Law (the Old Law), they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). In other words, this is talking about the Old Law from Moses (and not the New Law given to us by Jesus) because the Galatians were thinking they needed to be circumcised in order to be saved.

This was a problem that was addressed even at the Jerusalem counsel, too.

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).​

It's the same thing that Paul was fighting against. But you have taken Paul fighting against the Old Law (i.e. the Old Contract) that is no more and have made it to refer to the commands of Jesus Christ and His followers (When that is not the context of what Paul was referring to). Paul says if any man does not consent (i.e. does not agree) with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

So you have to read ALL of the Bible and not take verses out of their context, my friend. For why do you think Paul uses an example of circumcision in Romans 4:9-12? He is trying to prove that circumcision does not save first. It never did. Belief in God for salvation always came first.

9 "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." (Romans 4:9-12).​

Circumcision was a work of faith that came later after one first believed in God and His salvation. This is how it always was. But later we find out that if a person was not circumcised (during the time of Abraham), they could be cut off and they would have broken his covenant.

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14)."

So Paul's point here is that Abraham could not have just believed and then disobeyed God later and still be saved. Abraham had to also bring forth works of faith showing that his faith was true. For when Abraham obeyed God in willing to sacrifice his only son, God said something very interesting to him.

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
(Genesis 22:12).

Anyways, under the New Covenant, we do not have to be circumcised as a part of our Covenant. That was the contracts given to Abraham and Moses. Paul is condemning the Old Law to follow instead of the New Law or New Way. This New Way is by Jesus Christ. We must first enter in by Him and then follow Him. For if we are not obeying Jesus (not keeping His commandments), then we really do not love Him according to Jesus (See John 14:15).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,496
7,861
...
✟1,192,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I succumbed to all of this once. People preaching a message they did not live up[ to in their own lives. They gave the impression on Sundays they were virtually perfect people when they were not. Putting on an act on Sundays helps no one.
Basically these people believe, if they do not get drunk, smoke, use foul language, have extra marital affairs, they tithe their money, read the bible and attend all the church meetings they are living acceptable holy lives.
The Pharisees of Jesus day would have passed all those tests easily, yet Jesus told them they did not even know his Father

Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW be there that finds it (Matthew 7:14). Most churches today believe you can sin and still be saved on some level by just having a belief on Jesus. There are few holiness churches out there by way of comparison. But just because certain holiness churches out there are not practicing what they preach is not proof that God does not want you to obey Him as a part of the faith. This just means that there are less and less people who are actually striving with God to obey Jesus. The Narrow way is more narrow than you think. For Noah and his family were the only ones who were righteous and yet the rest of the world was wicked. Peter says the global flood is an example to all who will live ungodly today (See 2 Peter 2:5-6).

We are saved by God's grace through faith.
Yet, James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith access the saving grace of God?

Think of like this:

If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,488
7,346
Dallas
✟885,119.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do some of you actually believe that
God is only a God of love? How deceived you are!
Just for starters, the NT warns us that He chastises
those of His own who rebel, disobey, backslide, etc.
Truly, many many have been horrified at how asleep
the churches are today!
And WOW, I myself have found a couple of sleepy kids!

Revelation 2 is a good example of this. Also the story of Ananias and Saphira. As well as many others. God does have a wrath.
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Narrow is the way that leads to life
and FEW be there that finds it (Matthew 7:14).
... The Narrow way is more narrow than you think.
Amen brother ... but the churches today are so deceived
that they will hate you for bringing this Truth to them.
Satan has deceived most of the pastors,
and the pastors have deceived the sheep.
Either by ignorance or on purpose.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 2 is a good example of this. Also the story of Ananias and Saphira. As well as many others. God does have a wrath.
Not only that, but He had a salvation plan
before the foundation of the world.
And no one is going to change it.
So He has His justice to satisfy.
I.E. Those who don't submit to His plan will be
rejected ... as His original chosen people were.

What many BACs just don't get is that ...
BACs have incredible advantages over God's
original chosen people. BACs have been given:
--- the indwelling Holy Spirit (especially)
--- a new creation
--- the word of God

The Lord will do whatever He can to bring
every BAC to be sanctifed (made holy)
enough to satisfy Himself.
Many BACs will have NO excuse for NOT
going along with His plan for them!
 
Upvote 0

YeshuaFan

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2018
3,003
996
63
Macomb
✟56,324.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 2 is a good example of this. Also the story of Ananias and Saphira. As well as many others. God does have a wrath.
He indeed does chaistize his own when we are in unrepentant sinning, but he will never lose any of His own!
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
He indeed does chaistize his own when we are in unrepentant sinning, but He will never lose any of His own!
This is indeed a very real possibility.
Perhaps ALL of the dire warnings are to facilitate this.
I'm not sure.
I've just been called to point out
all of God's dire warnings to His BACs.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bcbsr

Newbie
Mar 17, 2003
4,085
2,318
Visit site
✟201,456.00
Faith
Christian
This is talking about "Initial Salvation" or "Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace). A person needs to first repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord) and trust in (or receive) Jesus by faith to be saved (before they can obey or bring forth "works of faith"). Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." Skip back a chapter and you will read this:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).​

Paul says to the Galatians in Galatians 5:2 that if they seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit them nothing. Circumcision is of the Law of Moses and not the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. This is why Paul continues to talk about how if they are justified by the Law (the Old Law), they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). In other words, this is talking about the Old Law from Moses (and not the New Law given to us by Jesus) because the Galatians were thinking they needed to be circumcised in order to be saved.

This was a problem that was addressed even at the Jerusalem counsel, too.

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).​

It's the same thing that Paul was fighting against. But you have taken Paul fighting against the Old Law (i.e. the Old Contract) that is no more and have made it to refer to the commands of Jesus Christ and His followers (When that is not the context of what Paul was referring to). Paul says if any man does not consent (i.e. does not agree) with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

So you have to read ALL of the Bible and not take verses out of their context, my friend. For why do you think Paul uses an example of circumcision in Romans 4:9-12? He is trying to prove that circumcision does not save first. It never did. Belief in God for salvation always came first.

9 "Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." (Romans 4:9-12).​

Circumcision was a work of faith that came later after one first believed in God and His salvation. This is how it always was. But later we find out that if a person was not circumcised (during the time of Abraham), they could be cut off and they would have broken his covenant.

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14)."

So Paul's point here is that Abraham could not have just believed and then disobeyed God later and still be saved. Abraham had to also bring forth works of faith showing that his faith was true. For when Abraham obeyed God in willing to sacrifice his only son, God said something very interesting to him.

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
(Genesis 22:12).

Anyways, under the New Covenant, we do not have to be circumcised as a part of our Covenant. That was the contracts given to Abraham and Moses. Paul is condemning the Old Law to follow instead of the New Law or New Way. This New Way is by Jesus Christ. We must first enter in by Him and then follow Him. For if we are not obeying Jesus (not keeping His commandments), then we really do not love Him according to Jesus (See John 14:15).
I'm familiar with the "initial salvation" theory in which salvation by works Christians try to sneek in a salvation by works soteriology, misreading Paul.

First of all there is no such thing as "initial salvation" because what are you saved from? Under the "initial salvation" theory one is not actually saved, but only given the potential to be saved if they measure up in the end. Essentially the idea is they're given the possibility of being saved by their works.

Salvation by works Christians put their trust in their own works to saved them. That is a fact. This in contrast to the gospel whereby by one trusts in Christ rather than in one's own works as it is written, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

And as you can see from the rhetoric Paul is not restricting his comment about works to ceremonial aspects of the law of Moses. He speaks generically of works and the concept that salvation by works Christians practice, namely to work to be saved. As I see it such people reject the grace of God and disqualify themselves by doing do.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,496
7,861
...
✟1,192,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'm familiar with the "initial salvation" theory in which salvation by works Christians try to sneek in a salvation by works soteriology, misreading Paul.

First of all there is no such thing as "initial salvation" because what are you saved from? Under the "initial salvation" theory one is not actually saved, but only given the potential to be saved if they measure up in the end. Essentially the idea is they're given the possibility of being saved by their works.

Salvation by works Christians put their trust in their own works to saved them. That is a fact. This in contrast to the gospel whereby by one trusts in Christ rather than in one's own works as it is written, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

And as you can see from the rhetoric Paul is not restricting his comment about works to ceremonial aspects of the law of Moses. He speaks generically of works and the concept that salvation by works Christians practice, namely to work to be saved. As I see it such people reject the grace of God and disqualify themselves by doing do.

You did not even read what I had written. In Romans 4:9-12, Paul makes a point about how Abraham believed first and was saved by that belief before he was circumcised (the work of faith).

Again, in Genesis 17:14 it says

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."​

Genesis 17:14 says a soul would be cut off and they would have broken God's covenant if they did not obey the command of circumcision (During Abraham's time). Could Abraham after being first saved by a belief in God for salvation later break the command of circumcision and be saved? No. He was first saved by faith, and then later he needed to obey as a part of the faith (to show that his faith was true) by being circumcised. Paul is trying to refute "Circumcision Salvationism" that says that you need to first be circumcised in order to be saved and that salvation was not first in Jesus Christ and having faith in Him to be saved (as the foundation of your faith). First is laying the foundation. When I build a house, I first lay a foundation of a concrete slab of some kind and then I build upon that foundation. The foundation that was first laid does not go away, and to say you have a house without building one (without works) is non-sense. Jesus says that anyone who does not do what he says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 5:26-27).

full
 
Upvote 0

bcbsr

Newbie
Mar 17, 2003
4,085
2,318
Visit site
✟201,456.00
Faith
Christian
You did not even read what I had written. In Romans 4:9-12, Paul makes a point about how Abraham believed first and was saved by that belief before he was circumcised (the work of faith).

Again, in Genesis 17:14 it says "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

Could Abraham after being first saved by a belief in God for salvation later break the command of circumcision and be saved? No. He was first saved by faith, and then later he needed to obey as a part of the faith (to show that his faith was true) by being circumcised. Paul is trying to refute "Circumcision Salvationism" that says that you need to first be circumcised in order to be saved and that salvation was not first in Jesus Christ and having faith in Him to be saved (as the foundation of your faith). First is laying the foundation. When I build a house, I first lay a foundation of a concrete slab of some kind and then I build upon that foundation. The foundation that was first laid does not go away, and to say you have a house without building one (without works) is non-sense. Jesus says that anyone who does not do what he says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 5:26-27).

full
Again you're reading your salvation by works soteriology into the bible. Now you're saying you have to be circumcised to be saved. Do you have to also follow the law to be saved?
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,496
7,861
...
✟1,192,667.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Again you're reading your salvation by works soteriology into the bible. Now you're saying you have to be circumcised to be saved. Do you have to also follow the law to be saved?

Again, you are not reading my posts. If you had, then you would address the points I brought up.

May God's love shine upon you today.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,488
7,346
Dallas
✟885,119.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not only that, but He had a salvation plan
before the foundation of the world.
And no one is going to change it.
So He has His justice to satisfy.
I.E. Those who don't submit to His plan will be
rejected ... as His original chosen people were.

What many BACs just don't get is that ...
BACs have incredible advantages over God's
original chosen people. BACs have been given:
--- the indwelling Holy Spirit (especially)
--- a new creation
--- the word of God

The Lord will do whatever He can to bring
every BAC to be sanctifed (made holy)
enough to satisfy Himself.
Many BACs will have NO excuse for NOT
going along with His plan for them!

I don’t quite agree about the advantage of BAC over the Jews because the book of life was written before creation. There are many Messianic Jews who have received everything the same gifts as the Gentiles. Also the Jews are blinded right now until the last Gentile finally comes to Christ. I wish that guy would hurry up and repent already I’m ready to go home!! ;)
 
Upvote 0