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Jipsah

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The concept of the rapture isn't a lie
Nah, it's just a man-made doctrine, based on knight-jump exegesis, misunderstanding (some of it willful) of some Scriptures, and and arbitrary and erroneous associations of different Scriptures which in fact have little or no bearing on each other. So yeah, the words come from the Bible, but the doctrine is a Rube Goldberg-looking 19th century invention.

Sorry mate, but that's how it is.
 
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Jipsah

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No; Biblewriter, those prophesies will come to pass. The true, righteous Israelites will receive them. Not the fake Israelis, who call themselves Jews, but the real Overcomers for God, literally His Israelites from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
We see them in each of the 7 Church's of Revelation 2 and 3.

Jesus is the epitome of Israel, He is the trunk of the Olive Tree and we are the branches. As faithful followers of Jesus; we are the true Israelites of God.
Dang, bruv, I haven't found anything to disagree with you about in this whole thread. One or both of us probably ought to be concerned about that. :tonguewink:
 
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Jipsah

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If what you say here is true, then about a fourth of the Old Testament is false.
That, or being grossly misunderstood, which is a lot more likely, isn't it?
 
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jgr

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If what you say here is true, then about a fourth of the Old Testament is false.
I'm just a messenger.

The choice:

1. False
2. Fulfilled in Christ

Easy decision.
 
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BABerean2

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Thank you for you're interpretation of the Scriptures.
I 100% disagree with you're assessment.
The Church will NOT be here during the 7 year tribulation.
Whatsoever.

Very few of those promoting the Pretrib doctrine know why their doctrine needs a pretrib removal of the Church.

The older "Classic" form of Dispensational Theology brought to America by John Nelson Darby, and later incorporated into the Scofield Reference Bible, needs the Church to be removed so that God can go back and deal with the modern State of Israel under the Old Covenant system, during the seven year period before the Second Coming of Christ.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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No; Biblewriter, those prophesies will come to pass. The true, righteous Israelites will receive them. Not the fake Israelis, who call themselves Jews, but the real Overcomers for God, literally His Israelites from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
We see them in each of the 7 Church's of Revelation 2 and 3.

Jesus is the epitome of Israel, He is the trunk of the Olive Tree and we are the branches. As faithful followers of Jesus; we are the true Israelites of God.
Not a single scripture ever, even once, even hints at the idea that Judah, Ephraim, or the names of any of the ten other tribes of Israel refer to the church. But there are explicitly stated promises made to each of these.
 
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Biblewriter

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That, or being grossly misunderstood, which is a lot more likely, isn't it?
If I say "I will do..." when I know that I will not do it, I am flat out lying. There is no misunderstanding involved.
 
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Biblewriter

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I'm just a messenger.

The choice:

1. False
2. Fulfilled in Christ

Easy decision.
Except when there can be zero question that many of the events explicitly stated in Bible prophecy have not yet happened.
 
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Jipsah

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If I say "I will do..." when I know that I will not do it, I am flat out lying. There is no misunderstanding involved.
Good that DFs are incapable of misunderstanding. The air must be thin at that altitude,though. But then again,when you see folks ignoring/denying the plain fulfillment of several prophecies, it may just be that they've done it in other cases as well. And if it seems expedient to them to deny the fulfillment of prophecies that threaten dearly held doctrines, well, there would be a natural tendency for human nature to kick in, wouldn't there?
 
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Jipsah

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Except when there can be zero question that many of the events explicitly stated in Bible prophecy have not yet happened.
Especially if your doctrinal position depends on it.
 
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Jipsah

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Not a single scripture ever, even once, even hints at the idea that Judah, Ephraim, or the names of any of the ten other tribes of Israel refer to the church. But there are explicitly stated promises made to each of these.
Fulfilled in Christ.
 
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claninja

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I would agree.
Have you and/or others noticed the similarity between "the spirit entering the bones, the bones standing up" in Ezekiel 37 and "the spirit entering into the 2 witnesses and they stand up" in Revelation 11
Just thought I would throw that out there...... need to delve into this someday.......

Ezekiel 37:
1 There hath been upon me a hand of Yahweh, and He taketh me forth in the Spirit of Yahweh, and doth place me in the midst of the valley, and it is full of bones
3 Then said He unto me "Son of Adam! Can these bones live". And I said " ah, my Lord Yahweh, Thou knowest!
10 And I prophecy as He instructed and the spirit/breath is coming in them and they are living and are standing on their feet, an army/host, great, exceedingly-exceedingly.

11 And He is saying to me "Son of Adam! these bones are whole house of Yisra'el
they behold! ones saying ' bones of us dry, our hope perishes, we are severed to ourselves'. [Luke 2:34/ Reve 11"11]

Revelation 11:11
And after the three days and half-equal, a spirit/breath of Life out of God entered in/on them,

and they stand on their feet and great fear falls on the ones beholding Them. [Ezekiel 37:10]



.
Now that is an interesting connection, one I have not noticed before. Thanks LLoJ!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Now that is an interesting connection, one I have not noticed before. Thanks LLoJ!
Your welcome and thanks for posting.
Ezekiel is a deep book......Goes with Revelation like white on rice.......


Ezekiel 37:9
And He saith unto me: 'Prophesy! unto the Spirit, prophesy! son of adam, and thou hast said unto the Spirit/breath:
Thus said my Lord Yahweh: From the four winds come in, O Spirit, and breathe on these slain, and they do live.'

Matthew 24:31
and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his chosen/elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

Coincidentally, both of these chapters have the same chapter number:

Ezekiel 7:
1 And a Word of Yahweh is becoming to me to say of, `And thou, Son of 'adam! thus says Adonay Yahweh to ground of Yisra'el:
2 An End! comes, the End on four corners of the land.
3 Now the End upon thee, and I send My anger in thee, and I judge thee as ways of thee,
and I give on thee all abominations/08441 tow`ebah of thee.

Revelation 7:1
After these things I saw four Messengers standing at the four corners of the land,
holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the land, on the sea, or on any tree.

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source!
That's IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation.
That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

EZEKIEL AND REVELATION PARALLEL

1. THRONE VISION - (Rev 4./Ezek 1).
2. THE BOOK (Rev 5/Ezek 2-3)
3. THE PLAGUES (Rev 6:1-8/Ezek 5).
4. Slain Beneath the Altar (Rev. 6:9-11/Ezek. 6)
5. WRATH OF GOD (Rev 6:12-17/Ezek 7).
6. SEAL ON SAINTS' FOREHEADS (Rev 7/Ezek 9)
7. COALS FROM ALTAR (Rev. 8/Ezek 10).
8. NO MORE DELAY (Rev. 10:1-7/Ezek 12).
9. EATING THE BOOK (Rev 10:8-11/Ezek. 2)
11. MEASURING THE TEMPLE (Rev. 11:1-2/Ezek. 40-43)
11. JERUSALEM AND SODOM (Rev. 11:8/Ezek 16)
12. CUP OF WRATH (Rev. 14/Ezek. 23).
13. VINE OF THE LAND (Rev. 14:18-20/Ezek 15)
14. GREAT HARLOT (Rev 17-18/Ezek. 16, 23).
15. LAMENT OVER THE CITY (Rev. 18/Ezek 27)
16. SCAVENGER'S FEAST (Rev. 19/Ezek 39)
17. FIRST RESURRECTION (Rev 20:4-6/Ezek 37).
18 BATTLE WITH GOG AND MAGOG (Rev. 20:7-9/Ezek 38-39)
19. NEW JERUSALEM (Rev 21/Ezek 40-48)
20. RIVER OF LIFE (Rev 22/Ezek 47)
 
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BABerean2

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Not a single scripture ever, even once, even hints at the idea that Judah, Ephraim, or the names of any of the ten other tribes of Israel refer to the church.

Really ???

Who was Peter addressing on the Day of Pentecost?


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Who would all the house of Israel include?)
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


Who was James addressing in his letter to his fellow believers?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. (Who would the twelve tribes include?)
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


You have thrown out the word "liar" recently, when your viewpoint has been challenged.

When you point one finger at another member of this forum, your other fingers are pointing back at you.

.

 
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Biblewriter

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Really ???
Yes. Really. And I did not call anyone a liar. I pointed out that those who pretend that God will not actually keep these promises is calling God a liar.
 
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claninja

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Obviously verse 7 and 29 are part of the same fulfillment.

Possibly, but historically from the account of Acts, we know that the gentiles did not come to know Christ until a couple of years after Pentecost.

after Pentecost

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

At Pentcost
Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

If verse 7 and 29 have already been fulfilled, yet some in the house of Israel, to this day, still pollute His Holy name in any manner, God then lied in verse 7, therefore does not have the real ability to actually prevent anyone of the house of Israel from polluting His holy name any more, even though He clearly declared that He will not let it happen any more once these things have been fulfilled.

Incorrect

God's promises have not failed Israel, because not all of Israel is Israel

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

A true Jew is one inwardly, not outwardly.
Romans 2:28-29 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart,

It isn't about DNA, but about Christ. If you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed (Israel)
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice the Hebrew parallelism of Micah 2:12, ALL of Jacob = remnant of Israel. So when God gathers his remnant, that is ALL of his people.
Micah 2:12 I will surely gather all of you, O Jacob; I will collect the remnant of Israel.

Thus, we can reconcile a seemingly 'on the surface' contradiction of Paul. All of true Israel = only those of national Israel who accept Christ (remnant) + Gentile believers.
Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.
Romans 11:25-26 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way e all Israel will be saved.

This also answers that the "not leaving any behind" = All of Israel = remnant.
Ezekiel 39:28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind


Look at verse 7 below, in context. The context obviously involves the judgment on Gog and his multitude. In the event someone concludes that the judgment against Gog and his multitude is still future, which would mean so is verse 7, and at the same time conclude verse 29 has already been fulfilled, how can verse 29 already be fulfilled though when verse 7 isn't? Would God be hiding His face from them while they are polluting His holy name? Or would God no longer be hiding His face from them once He no longer let's them pollute His holy name any more? What does common sense seem to say?

The true Israel of God is Christ. All of the promises of God are "yes" in Christ. If you are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, then you belong to the true Israel. Christ does not pollute the name of God, and neither do those who are in Christ.

Can you provide scripture where God will pour out his spirit a 2nd time? Does revelation mention another pouring out of Spirit after Gog/Magog is defeated?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Biblewriter said:
I clearly stated that there is some small excuse for claiming that "Israel" actually means "the church." (Although there is not even one scripture that actually says that.) But there is not even an atom of scripture that even seems to justify interpreting any of the Israeli sub-nations, tribes, or individuals named as recipients of specific promises to mean "the church."

The church is never, even once referred to as "Judah," "Ephraim" or any of the other ten tribal names, nor is it ever referred to as the children of any of the specific Israelis whose children were promised blessing.
jgr said:
You haven't answered the simple question, so I'll repeat it for you.
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
There is only one fold.
Is it Israel, or is it the Church?
Biblewriter said:
The one fold is the church. But after it is taken to heaven, God will most assuredly keep every promise He made to Israel and to each and every subdivision therefore.
jgr said:
The word “but” does not appear in the verse.

There is only one fold, and when the fold is taken to heaven, there is no other fold, and those who refused to enter it are eternally lost.

The Shepherd's promises are only for Him and those in His fold. When the fold is taken, the promises are taken with it. No fold, no promises.

There are not nor will there be promises for Israel or anyone else after the fold is taken.
Biblewriter said:
If what you say here is true, then about a fourth of the Old Testament is false.
keras said:
No; Biblewriter, those prophesies will come to pass. The true, righteous Israelites will receive them. Not the fake Israelis, who call themselves Jews, but the real Overcomers for God, literally His Israelites from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
We see them in each of the 7 Church's of Revelation 2 and 3.

Jesus is the epitome of Israel, He is the trunk of the Olive Tree and we are the branches. As faithful followers of Jesus; we are the true Israelites of God.
Dang, bruv, I haven't found anything to disagree with you about in this whole thread. One or both of us probably ought to be concerned about that. :tonguewink:
Tis a rarity on this board for sure.............

Luke 6:42
“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye.


computer slapping.gif
 
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BABerean2

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Yes. Really. And I did not call anyone a liar. I pointed out that those who pretend that God will not actually keep these promises is calling God a liar.

What should we call you, when what you claim does not agree with the text found below?

..........................................................


Who was Peter addressing on the Day of Pentecost?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Who would all the house of Israel include?)
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


Who was James addressing in his letter to his fellow believers?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. (Who would the twelve tribes include?)
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

.........................................................
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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ItIsFinished! said:
The concept of the rapture isn't a lie
Nah, it's just a man-made doctrine, based on knight-jump exegesis, misunderstanding (some of it willful) of some Scriptures, and and arbitrary and erroneous associations of different Scriptures which in fact have little or no bearing on each other. So yeah, the words come from the Bible, but the doctrine is a Rube Goldberg-looking 19th century invention.

Sorry mate, but that's how it is.
I call it the "spider web" doctrine.......

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.............

Evaluating Premillennialism: Part II – Christ’s Return and the Rapture by Cornelis P. Venema
By GOL | Dispensationalism
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its most widely known aspect. Popularized by such best-selling books as Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth, the film The Return, and bumper stickers warning others that in the event of the rapture the vehicle will be without driver and possibly passengers — Dispensationalism has enjoyed a large following among conservative Christians, especially in North America.

Evaluating Premillennialism: Part III – Israel and the Church by Cornelis P. Venema
By GOL | Dispensationalism
We have frequently noted that one of the principal tenets of Dispensational Premillennialism is the strict separation between God’s earthly people, Israel, and his heavenly people, the church. It could even be argued that this separation between Israel and the church is the root principle of classical — as distinguished from ‘progressive’ Dispensationalism.
From this separation of an earthly and a spiritual people stems another basic feature of Dispensationalism, one which we will consider in a subsequent section of this chapter


spider web.gif




.
 
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DavidPT

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Possibly, but historically from the account of Acts, we know that the gentiles did not come to know Christ until a couple of years after Pentecost.

after Pentecost

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

At Pentcost
Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.



Incorrect

God's promises have not failed Israel, because not all of Israel is Israel

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

A true Jew is one inwardly, not outwardly.
Romans 2:28-29 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart,

It isn't about DNA, but about Christ. If you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed (Israel)
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice the Hebrew parallelism of Micah 2:12, ALL of Jacob = remnant of Israel. So when God gathers his remnant, that is ALL of his people.
Micah 2:12 I will surely gather all of you, O Jacob; I will collect the remnant of Israel.

Thus, we can reconcile a seemingly 'on the surface' contradiction of Paul. All of true Israel = only those of national Israel who accept Christ (remnant) + Gentile believers.
Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.
Romans 11:25-26 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way e all Israel will be saved.

This also answers that the "not leaving any behind" = All of Israel = remnant.
Ezekiel 39:28 Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind




The true Israel of God is Christ. All of the promises of God are "yes" in Christ. If you are in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, then you belong to the true Israel. Christ does not pollute the name of God, and neither do those who are in Christ.

Can you provide scripture where God will pour out his spirit a 2nd time? Does revelation mention another pouring out of Spirit after Gog/Magog is defeated?


The main reasons I can't agree with you that some of these things in Ezekiel 39 have already been fulfilled, where you then provided passages showing how they allegedly are, is because verse 29 in Ezkiel 39 can't get fulfilled until God has first executed judgment on Gog and his multitude. I simply do not believe God has executed judgment on Gog and his multitude as of yet. That in my mind places verse 29 still in the future because His judgment against Gog and his multitude is still in the future. If it wasn't for that major fact, I could maybe agree with you here. But no matter how I look at it though, even looking at it from your perspective, I still can't see how verse 29 in Ezekiel 39 can be fulfilled before God even executes judgment on Gog and his multitude.

I'm assuming you noticed that verse 29 is at the end of the chapter, after that of the judgment of Gog and his multitude. So why would it be at the end of the chapter if the judgment of Gog and his multitude chronologically follows the fulfillment of verse 29? How does that make sense in light of what verse 7 says in Ezekiel 39, for instance? If God has already poured His Spirit out upon the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 39, before verse 7 is even fulfilled, why then is verse 7 saying this---So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel? Why would He need to do that if He had already poured His Spirit out upon the house of Israel meant in Ezkiel 39 before He even fulfills this in verse 7?

When we attempt to interpret things, shouldn't we at least try and be logical about things so that we can hope to come to reasonable conclusions? Per what the text indicates in Ezekiel 39, how is it being logical though by concluding verse 29 can be fulfilled before God even executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude?
 
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