Erik Nelson

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Do you believe in a future Second Coming of Christ?

.
yes, Christ on His Father's Throne = Revelation 20:9+

previous spiritually-similar events have been (powerful) prefigurations of the "Grand Finale"
 
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iamlamad

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The multitude that came out of great tribulation is inside the temple.
The end of Rev. 15 shows that man can't go inside of the temple unless seven plagues -are over.
the seven plagues of the seven angels are fulfilled

For men to be inside of the temple before the 7th seal is opened, seven plagues had to come to pass first. They were the trumpets plagues.

Your timing is goofy and your thinking the same.

The truth? BEFORE the 7 vials begin, as in the timing of the seals and the trumpets - people are in the temple. But just before the vials begin, no one can enter until they are finished - but perhaps all vials are finished in one hour.

Example: wife mops kitchen floor - tells husband and kids, "DON'T come into the kitchen until the floor has dried."

Does this mean no one could enter the kitchen the day before? You know the answer.

Learn this truth, and it will change the way you read Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.
 
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iamlamad

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They could be if they are those spoken of in the scriptures as also part of the NEW JERUSALEM which has 24 elders: 12 of the heads of the tribes of Israel and 12 apostles all built up in ONE HOUSE all wearing the same white washed garment
You are guessing on the 24 Elders: NO ONE knows who they are or who they are to represent because John did not tell us.

Perhaps God has spoken to you? If so, tell us about it.

My point was, Jesus was not speaking ONLY to those listening at that point in time, but to every generation. There is coming a generation - it may be those alive today - that will see all these things in their lifetime and KNOW the end is near.
 
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BABerean2

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yes, Christ on His Father's Throne = Revelation 20:9+

previous spiritually-similar events have been (powerful) prefigurations of the "Grand Finale"

Do you believe this planet will be destroyed when Revelation 20:9+ comes to pass?

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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miknik5 said:
They could be if they are those spoken of in the scriptures as also part of the NEW JERUSALEM which has 24 elders: 12 of the heads of the tribes of Israel and 12 apostles all built up in ONE HOUSE all wearing the same white washed garment
You are guessing on the 24 Elders: NO ONE knows who they are or who they are to represent because John did not tell us.

Perhaps God has spoken to you? If so, tell us about it.

My point was, Jesus was not speaking ONLY to those listening at that point in time, but to every generation. There is coming a generation - it may be those alive today - that will see all these things in their lifetime and KNOW the end is near.
That would make for an interesting discussion thread.
Who are the 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?

I would think they may be representing:
12 Elders of OC Israel and 12 of NC Israel.

We can go back to the OT [and NT] to find out more about the Elders of Israel


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2205 zaqen from 2204;
old:--aged, ancient (man), elder(-est), old (man, men and...women), senator.
Strong's Number H2205 occurs 178 times in 171 verses

Numbers 11:16
And Jehovah saith unto Moses, 'Gather to Me seventy men of the Elders of Israel, whom thou hast known that they are Elders of the people, and its authorities;
and thou hast taken them unto the tent of meeting, and they have stationed themselves there with thee,

Joel 1:
2 Hear this, you Elders, And give ear, all you inhabitants of the land!
Has anything like this happened in your days, Or even in the days of your fathers?

14 Consecrate a fast, Call a sacred assembly; Gather the Elders And all the inhabitants of the land Into the house of the LORD your God, And cry out to the LORD.
16 Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the Elders,
Gather the children and nursing babes;
Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room.

4245. presbuteros comparative of presbus (elderly);
older; as noun, a senior; specially, an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian "presbyter":-- elder(-est), old.
Strong's Number G4245 occurs 67 times in 67 verses

Matthew 21:23
And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the Elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
Matthew 26:3
Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the Elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,


Matthew 23:37

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

All the OC and NC Elders now believe and acknowledge that Jesus is truly the Mediator of the NC and is Lord of Lord and King of Kings,
upon seeing OC Jerusalem/Harlot, and it's rulers and priesthood, disappear in a plume of smoke and fire:

Revelation 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of a great multitude in the Heaven, saying, 'Alleluia!
the salvation and the glory and the honour, and the power, is to the Lord our God;
and a second time they said, 'Alleluia'
and the smoke of Her doth ascend -- to the ages of the ages!
Revelation 19:4
And fall down did the twenty four Elders and the four living-ones,
and they did bow before God Who is sitting upon the throne, saying, 'Amen! Alleluia!.'

Revllation 19:6
and I heard as the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, 'Alleluia!
because reign did the Lord God -- the Almighty!

Topical Bible: Elders of Israel
Elders of Israel

The heads of tribes, who, before the settlement of the Hebrew commonwealth, had a government and authority over their own families and the people. Moses and Aaron treated the elders as representatives of the nation, Exodus 3:16 4:29 12:21. When the law was given, God directed Moses to take the seventy elders, as well as Aaron, and Nadab and Abihu his sons, that they might be witnesses, Exodus 24:1,9. Ever afterwards we find this number of seventy, or rather, seventy-two, elders; six from each tribe.

In allusion to the Jewish elders, the ordinary governors and teachers of the Christian church are called elders, or presbyters, Acts 20:17,28 Titus 1:5,7 1 Peter 5:1 2 John 1:1.

http://www.[bless and do not curse]...se]/beginner/new-testament-groups/elders.html

In the New Testament, elders (of the people, of Israel, etc.) were older men who represented the people and who exercised a certain amount of authority over them. Existing at least as far back as the time of Moses, they were the governing foundation of different groups in the Bible.
Elders were the first ones told, by Moses, about God's plan to free the children of Israel from Egyptian bondage (Exodus 3:16). The Old Testament elders asked the prophet Samuel to place a human king (instead of God) over all the people (1Samuel 8:5).

Old Testament elders could represent a city or town (Deuteronomy 19:12, 1Samuel 16:4), the people of a particular tribe (Numbers 22:7, Deuteronomy 31:28, 2Samuel 19:11), a family (2Samuel 12:17) or a country (Joshua 9:11). They were eligible to sit on the Sanhedrin, or properly the Great Sanhedrin, which met in Jerusalem and was the supreme council of the Jews.

The word translated as elder in the New Testament is the Greek word presbuteros (Strong's Concordance #G4245), which generally is used to refer to older men respected by others as leaders and role models. The elders of the people were some of the most vehement adversaries against Jesus and his teachings.


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You had written this: "Furthermore sir revelation 12 shows that he was snatched up to .GOD and HIS throne from the beginning"

I asked you "the beginning of what?" Did you mean the beginning of His life as a human?

When God was teaching me, and asked me the three questions on chapters 4 & 5 - questions I could not then answer, one day He told me to turn to chapter 12. I turned and He gave me a synopsis of the chapter:

"This chapter was Me introducing John to the Dragon. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned."

I counted 32 times and told Him I could understand this chapter was about the Dragon.

He continued: "This chapter is about the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week - but I CHOSE to show John what the Dragon did when I was a child - those first 5 verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

So I always say what He said to me: the first five verses are about the birth of Christ and how the dragon tried to kill Him as a child. However, there are always some that want to argue and say they are for the church at the midpoint of the week.

He HAD all authority in the beginning, when earth was created, but if you go back to Genesis, He GAVE His authority over earth to Adam. He would not take it back, even when Adam turned it over to Satan. However, Jesus will get it back at the 7th trumpet.d
miknik5 said:
He said something that you are overlooking when he created Adam which I am not going to tell you
Why be stubborn or ornery? If I am missing something, please tell me.
I am curious about that myself.........


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Erik Nelson said:
yes, Christ on His Father's Throne = Revelation 20:9+

previous spiritually-similar events have been (powerful) prefigurations of the "Grand Finale"
Do you believe this planet will be destroyed when Revelation 20:9+ comes to pass?

.
Have you seen this thread? Coincidentally, this member also used blue in his post...

Do all of the seals, trumpets and vials affect the entire planet or are they more targeted in scope?

There are many interpretations of the book of Revelation with regard to timing and scope. Post your beliefs and reasons for those beliefs.


I’ll start with a brief explanation of what I see in the seals.


1st Seal - No matter what your view of who or what the 1st seal represents the passage only says he that sat on the white horse went forth conquering and to conquer is does not say what or how much is conquered.

2nd Seal - This rider is said to take peace from the earth, so it could be argued to affect most of the planet at different times, but war has been a factor throughout history and this seal cannot be shown from the text to be a one time judgement during the tribulation period that brings war to every corner of earth at one time..

3rd Seal - Whatever your interpretation of the 3rd rider the passage does not say who or to what degree are those involved are affected.

4th- Seal - Power was given to the 4th rider only over ¼ of the earth.

5th Seal - Is only those who are slain for the word of God.

6th Seal - Affects the sun, moon and stars, every mountain and island, as well as the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man. The 6th seal can be said to affect the entire planet.

7th Seal - Only says there was silence in heaven, does not affect the entire planet.



Only seal 6 can be argued from the text to affect the entire planet at one time.
 
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miknik5

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That would make for an interesting discussion thread.
Who are the 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?

I would think they may be representing:
12 Elders of OC Israel and 12 of NC Israel.

We can go back to the OT [and NT] to find out more about the Elders of Israel


Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2205 zaqen from 2204;
old:--aged, ancient (man), elder(-est), old (man, men and...women), senator.
Strong's Number H2205 occurs 178 times in 171 verses

Numbers 11:16
And Jehovah saith unto Moses, 'Gather to Me seventy men of the Elders of Israel, whom thou hast known that they are Elders of the people, and its authorities;
and thou hast taken them unto the tent of meeting, and they have stationed themselves there with thee,

Joel 1:
2 Hear this, you Elders, And give ear, all you inhabitants of the land!
Has anything like this happened in your days, Or even in the days of your fathers?

14 Consecrate a fast, Call a sacred assembly; Gather the Elders And all the inhabitants of the land Into the house of the LORD your God, And cry out to the LORD.
16 Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the Elders,
Gather the children and nursing babes;
Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room.

4245. presbuteros comparative of presbus (elderly);
older; as noun, a senior; specially, an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian "presbyter":-- elder(-est), old.
Strong's Number G4245 occurs 67 times in 67 verses

Matthew 21:23
And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the Elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
Matthew 26:3
Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the Elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,


Matthew 23:37

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

All the OC and NC Elders now believe and acknowledge that Jesus is truly the Mediator of the NC and is Lord of Lord and King of Kings,
upon seeing OC Jerusalem/Harlot, and it's rulers and priesthood, disappear in a plume of smoke and fire:

Revelation 19:1
And after these things I heard a great voice of a great multitude in the Heaven, saying, 'Alleluia!
the salvation and the glory and the honour, and the power, is to the Lord our God;
Revelation 19:4
And fall down did the twenty four Elders and the four living-ones,
and they did bow before God Who is sitting upon the throne, saying, 'Amen! Alleluia!.'

Revllation 19:6
and I heard as the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, 'Alleluia!
because reign did the Lord God -- the Almighty!

Topical Bible: Elders of Israel
Elders of Israel

The heads of tribes, who, before the settlement of the Hebrew commonwealth, had a government and authority over their own families and the people. Moses and Aaron treated the elders as representatives of the nation, Exodus 3:16 4:29 12:21. When the law was given, God directed Moses to take the seventy elders, as well as Aaron, and Nadab and Abihu his sons, that they might be witnesses, Exodus 24:1,9. Ever afterwards we find this number of seventy, or rather, seventy-two, elders; six from each tribe.

In allusion to the Jewish elders, the ordinary governors and teachers of the Christian church are called elders, or presbyters, Acts 20:17,28 Titus 1:5,7 1 Peter 5:1 2 John 1:1.

http://www.[bless and do not curse]...se]/beginner/new-testament-groups/elders.html

In the New Testament, elders (of the people, of Israel, etc.) were older men who represented the people and who exercised a certain amount of authority over them. Existing at least as far back as the time of Moses, they were the governing foundation of different groups in the Bible.
Elders were the first ones told, by Moses, about God's plan to free the children of Israel from Egyptian bondage (Exodus 3:16). The Old Testament elders asked the prophet Samuel to place a human king (instead of God) over all the people (1Samuel 8:5).

Old Testament elders could represent a city or town (Deuteronomy 19:12, 1Samuel 16:4), the people of a particular tribe (Numbers 22:7, Deuteronomy 31:28, 2Samuel 19:11), a family (2Samuel 12:17) or a country (Joshua 9:11). They were eligible to sit on the Sanhedrin, or properly the Great Sanhedrin, which met in Jerusalem and was the supreme council of the Jews.

The word translated as elder in the New Testament is the Greek word presbuteros (Strong's Concordance #G4245), which generally is used to refer to older men respected by others as leaders and role models. The elders of the people were some of the most vehement adversaries against Jesus and his teachings.


.

73311844, member: 332447"]Why be stubborn or ornery? If I am missing something, please tell me.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for all that. I think I’ll stand on what is said of them in revelation 21
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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73311844, member: 332447"]Why be stubborn or ornery? If I am missing something, please tell me.
Thank you for all that. I think I’ll stand on what is said of them in revelation 21
Lots of OT Hebrew symbolism in Revelation.........

Faith, Mountain, and Sea Matt 21:21/Mark 11:3

Hebrews 12: [Deuteronomy 4:11 Revelation 8:8]
18 For ye are not come unto the mount[Sinai] that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

Revelation 8:8 [Hebrews 8:8 Matthew 21:21]
And the second Messenger trumpets,
and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,[OC]

Revelation 19:
3 and a second time they said, 'Alleluia' and the smoke of Her doth ascend -- to the ages of the ages!
4 And fall down did the twenty four Elders and the four living-ones,
and they did bow before God Who is sitting upon the throne, saying, 'Amen! Alleluia!.'


2 Mountains enter, 1 Mountain remains

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
 
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miknik5

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Lots of OT Hebrew symbolism in Revelation.........

Faith, Mountain, and Sea Matt 21:21/Mark 11:3

Hebrews 12: [Deuteronomy 4:11 Revelation 8:8]
18 For ye are not come unto the mount[Sinai] that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

Revelation 8:8 [Hebrews 8:8 Matthew 21:21]
And the second Messenger trumpets,
and as it were a great Mountain with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood,

Revelation 19:
3 and a second time they said, 'Alleluia' and the smoke of Her doth ascend -- to the ages of the ages!
4 And fall down did the twenty four Elders and the four living-ones,
and they did bow before God Who is sitting upon the throne, saying, 'Amen! Alleluia!.'

2 Mountains enter, 1 Mountain remains

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
I’m sorry. In response to iamlamad in regard to the 24 elders there is really no need to speculate and the symbolism is clear: 12 of the heads of the tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the lamb

Revelation 21:12 through revelation 21:14 shows the construct of THE HOUSE
 
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BABerean2

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iamlamad

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Iamlamad...Please keep all of scripture in mind. It isn’t enough to mention revelation 4 and forget revelation 21
We we are discussing the context of the first seals, we are interested in chapters 4 & 5, NOT chapter 21! Why would you ever suggest such a thing?
The timing of chapters 4 & 5 are 32 AD while the timing of chapter 21 is after the 1000 year reign. These two chapters really have nothing in common except they are found in the same book.
Do you agree or disagree? Why?

Added later: OK, I see why you think they are connected: because of the number 12 and another number 12.
 
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iamlamad

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I’m sorry. In response to iamlamad in regard to the 24 elders there is really no need to speculate and the symbolism is clear: 12 of the heads of the tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the lamb

Revelation 21:12 through revelation 21:14 shows the construct of THE HOUSE
So can you find any verse that ties these to the elders shown in chapter 4?

How about timing: can you prove in any scripture how these 24 got into the throne room?

It has always been my policy that I won't go beyond what the word tells us - that is speculate - unless God has given me revelation.

I will admit, it seems very convenient that the 24 elders are 12 from the Old and 12 from the New, but I cannot really prove it by scripture.

Can you tell us why you think this is important?

By the way, you still have not told us about what God said to Adam....
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The multitude that came out of great tribulation is inside the temple.
The end of Rev. 15 shows that man can't go inside of the temple unless seven plagues -are over.
the seven plagues of the seven angels are fulfilled
For men to be inside of the temple before the 7th seal is opened, seven plagues had to come to pass first. They were the trumpets plagues.

If I am not mistaken, the Golden Altar is being measured which is inside the Tabernacle/Sanctuary.

Revelation 11:1
1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying,
'Rise, and measure the Sanctuary/Tabernacle of God, and the Altar[Golden Altar], and those worshiping in it;

The court is outside the Sanctuary and it along with the altar of sacrifice is to be cast out outside. Signifying no more animal sacrifices.....

2 and the Court/fold[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], outside the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be treading/pathsousin <3961> (5692) 42 month.

Revelation 8:3

Then another Messenger, having a golden censer, came and stood at the Altar.
He was given much incense, that He should offer it with the prayers of all the Saints upon the Golden Altar which was before the throne.[inside the Sanctuary]
Revelation 9:13
Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the Golden Altar which is before God,

Revelation 15:8
And is being replete the Sanctuary/naoV <3485> of smoke out of the Glory of the God and out of the power of Him.
And no one was *able to be entering into the Sanctuary/naon <3485> until should be being finished the seven blows of the seven Messengers.

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1
The Camp
--The Gate--
The Court--The Brazen Altar--The Laver--
The Tabernacle
--
The First Veil
--The Table-
-The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--
The Second Veil
The Mercy Seat and Ark--
The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.
 
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miknik5

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We we are discussing the context of the first seals, we are interested in chapters 4 & 5, NOT chapter 21! Why would you ever suggest such a thing?
The timing of chapters 4 & 5 are 32 AD while the timing of chapter 21 is after the 1000 year reign. These two chapters really have nothing in common except they are found in the same book.
Do you agree or disagree? Why?

Added later: OK, I see why you think they are connected: because of the number 12 and another number 12.
Then please don’t include revelation 4 and imply that we don’t know who the 24 elders are since (as I have shown according to the scriptures) revelation 21 already identifies the 24 elders clearly
 
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miknik5

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If I am not mistaken, the Golden Altar is being measured which is inside the Tabernacle/Sanctuary.

Revelation 11:1
1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying,
'Rise, and measure the Sanctuary/Tabernacle of God, and the Altar[Golden Altar], and those worshiping in it;

The court is outside the Sanctuary and it along with the altar of sacrifice is to be cast out outside. Signifying no more animal sacrifices.....

2 and the Court/fold[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], outside the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be treading/pathsousin <3961> (5692) 42 months months.

Revelation 8:3

Then another Messenger, having a golden censer, came and stood at the Altar.
He was given much incense, that He should offer it with the prayers of all the Saints upon the Golden Altar which was before the throne.[inside the Sanctuary]
Revelation 9:13
Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the Golden Altar which is before God,

Revelation 15:8
And is being replete the Sanctuary/naoV <3485> of smoke out of the Glory of the God and out of the power of Him.
And no one was *able to be entering into the Sanctuary/naon <3485> until should be being finished the seven blows of the seven Messengers.

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1
The Camp--The Gate--
The Court--The Brazen Altar--The Laver--
The Tabernacle
--
The First Veil
--The Table-
-The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--
The Second Veil
The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.
Now THIS is symbolic of those inside and those outside the HOUSE
 
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miknik5

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So can you find any verse that ties these to the elders shown in chapter 4?

How about timing: can you prove in any scripture how these 24 got into the throne room?

It has always been my policy that I won't go beyond what the word tells us - that is speculate - unless God has given me revelation.

I will admit, it seems very convenient that the 24 elders are 12 from the Old and 12 from the New, but I cannot really prove it by scripture.

Can you tell us why you think this is important?

By the way, you still have not told us about what God said to Adam....
You find it convenient that the 24 elders are who they are?

That’s nice

(Also. You won’t go beyond what is written?)

Then please don’t as you have already done so with your expounding of revelation 12
 
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