God's purpose for sharing about the Rich Man?

Jason0047 said:

It's amazing to me how people think this story is a parable. It has none of the marks of a traditional parable. A parable is like a real world example with no mention of specific people's names and stuff and with it sometimes being called a parable and with it sometimes having some kind of Proverbial saying(s) attached to it. If you were to just read and believe the words plainly, it sounds like an actual real story that took place.

I think some folks are disturbed by the existence of a hell, or they cannot accept the things within the story as being true or possible, and so they right it off as a parable without actually looking at the text to see if is a parable or not.

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I find it understandable for people to think it is a parable.......The beginning of the previous chapter states that Jesus is telling a parable....and after the first story, it continues.. "AND, A certain man" just like the story in question here. And Jesus tells at least 4 stories that start with " a Certain (man, rich man etc..)" in chapter 15 and 16. I think it fair for one to think that all were parables since they started with "And he spake this parable unto them, saying," It doesnt have to be fear of your hellfires that bring them to this conclusion.

Also the bible states that Jesus did not speak to the multitudes without parables.....and during this discussion, there were more than disciples present....although some statements seem to be addressed to the Disciples while others a larger group.

RaymondG said:

I find it understandable for people to think it is a parable.......The beginning of the previous chapter states that Jesus is telling a parable....and after the first story, it continues.. "AND, A certain man" just like the story in question here. And Jesus tells at least 4 stories that start with " a Certain (man, rich man etc..)" in chapter 15 and 16. I think it fair for one to think that all were parables since they started with "And he spake this parable unto them, saying," It doesnt have to be fear of your hellfires that bring them to this conclusion.

Also the bible states that Jesus did not speak to the multitudes without parables.....and during this discussion, there were more than disciples present....although some statements seem to be addressed to the Disciples while others a larger group.

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Jesus also spoke plainly, too. He told men to repent and he warned them of sin. In fact, right before the story of Lazarus and the rich man he talks about the sin of those who divorce their wife and then they marry another (generally speaking). Also, again, no other parable had given specific names to certain individuals, either. That is why a parable is a parable. It is speaking generically of a real world example to illustrate a spiritual truth.

The story of rich man and Lazarus is totally different because it mentions:


All these markers lets us know it is not a parable.

The only two reasons,

The only two reasons,

The only two reasons folks want to make this a parable is because they:

(a) Do not believe hell is a literal place of torment.
(b) They do not think that such a story would be possible the way that it is described. But little do they realize that there are many things in God's Word that are off the charts in what could actually take place normally (without supernatural interference). They need to understand that with God, anything is possible and that we cannot enforce our worldly understanding on things (Again: For example: Fire in the spiritual world in hell within the afterlife could operate totally different than the fire of this world).

Jason0047 said:

Jesus also spoke plainly, too. He told men to repent and he warned them of sin. In fact, right before the story of Lazarus and the rich man he talks about the sin of those who divorce their wife and then they marry another (generally speaking). Also, again, no other parable had given specific names to certain individuals, either. That is why a parable is a parable. It is speaking generically of a real world example to illustrate a spiritual truth.

The story of rich man and Lazarus is totally different because it mentions:

(a) Specific people's names (i.e. Abraham and Lazarus).

(b) Does not have an Proverbial saying attached like certain parables "Where Jesus steps out of the story" and sums it up with a special wise saying; For example: The Parable right before the story of Lazarus and the Rich man ("The Parable of the Unrighteous Steward") gives us a summed up Proverbial saying: "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." (Luke 16:10).

(c) Does not call itself a parable (like some parables do).

(d) It talks about a place that is unlike reality or the real world (like other parables do).

(e) The story takes place after Jesus talked about the Law and the sin of divorce and remarriage and not hot off the heels of another parable.​

All these markers lets us know it is not a parable.

The only two reasons,

The only two reasons,

The only two reasons folks want to make this a parable is because they:

(a) Do not believe hell is a literal place of torment.
(b) They do not think that such a story would be possible the way that it is described. But little do they realize that there are many things in God's Word that are off the charts in what could actually take place normally (without supernatural interference).

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You just proved why it is plausible for people to believe it is a parable:

Jason0047 said:

The Parable right before the story of Lazarus and the Rich man ("The Parable of the Unrighteous Steward") gives us a summed up Proverbial saying: "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." (Luke 16:10).

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You state that the story above the one in question, IS A PARABLE, When the bible did not specifically mention that it was, right before it. And this story, which you said is a parable, starts exactly the same way as the one you state is not a parable: "There was a certain rich man," Both starts EXACTLY the same way, yet you feel that you can tell us that one is a parable and the other isnt, but you cant trust someone else, or even understand why someone else would believe something other than you?

The bible states specifically, that Jesus only spoke to people outside of the disciple with parables. Are you saying that you see evidence that only the Disciples were present or that the bible with wrong....in saying that Jesus did not speak plainly to the multitudes?

Again, Im not saying it is or isnt a parable.....as this changes nothing for me. The thing I dont understand, is how you can deem others as not understandable if they disagree with your determination of what is and isnt parable...

RaymondG said:

You just proved why it is plausible for people to believe it is a parable:



You state that the story above the one in question, IS A PARABLE, When the bible did not specifically mention that it was, right before it. And this story, which you said is a parable, starts exactly the same way as the one you state is not a parable: "There was a certain rich man," Both starts EXACTLY the same way, yet you feel that you can tell us that one is a parable and the other isnt, but you cant trust someone else, or even understand why someone else would believe something other than you?

The bible states specifically, that Jesus only spoke to people outside of the disciple with parables. Are you saying that you see evidence that only the Disciples were present or that the bible with wrong....in saying that Jesus did not speak plainly to the multitudes?

Again, Im not saying it is or isnt a parable.....as this changes nothing for me. The thing I dont understand, is how you can deem others as not understandable if they disagree with your determination of what is and isnt parable...

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Again, while the Parable before the story of Lazarus and the Rich man starts the same way in the first sentence, they do not continue the same way. Again, no parable. I repeat, no parable has exact names of people mentioned. A parable is a generic real world example to illustrate a spiritual truth. To say that this is the only case where the parable is different is silly. All other parables do not have the characteristics of the Story of Lazarus and the Rich man. It's not a parable (Which is clear when you pluck out a verse out of it's context (the whole of the parable) so as to make it a parable when it really is not one). To say it is a parable is like a person saying the story of Jesus is like one big parable because they do not believe it is possible for a person to die and raise from the dead. But we know that the Story of Jesus is not a parable because it mentions specific people and places by name. It records it like a real event. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is no different.

Let me ask you two questions:

Q: Are you reading the story of Lazarus and the Rich man as a parable because you do not believe in the existence of hell or you do not believe the story does not sound possible? (or):
Q: Are you reading the story solely based upon the text clearly telling you that this a parable?

My guess is that you are being biased or influenced to read the text in the way you do not by what it says but because you have preconceived notions or ideas going into the text. Granted, we are all guilty of doing this at one point or another within our faith when studying God's Word. I myself have done this before. But the key question is: In the end: Will we truly hear what we want to hear or will we hear what God's Word really says plainly?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Lazarus is only mentioned in 1 chapter of Luke and 2 chapters in John.

Lazarus (YLT)
"lazarus"
occurs 15 times in 15 verses i

I believe it is a Covenantle parable between the OC Law/Death/Moses and NC Faith of Abraham and Life of Jesus and of course the Resurrection of Lord and Savior.

Why is the Rich-Man in Luke 16:24 calling out to Abraham?

John 11:
39 Jesus saith, 'Take ye away the stone;' the sister of him who hath died -- Martha -- saith to him, 'Sir, already he stinketh, for it is fourth day;'
43 And these things saying, with a loud voice he cried out, 'Lazarus, come forth;'
and he who died came forth, being bound feet and hands with grave-clothes, and his visage with a napkin was bound about; Jesus saith to them, 'Loose him, and suffer to go.'
John 12:1
Jesus, therefore, six days before the passover, came to Bethany,
where was Lazarus, who had died, whom he raised out of the dead;

You can find numerous commentaries about it doing a google search.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading.
In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching...................

LUKE 16:
30 "And he said, 'Nay! father Abraham;
but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Yeshua uses the last two verses of this parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead. The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.

But Abraham answers and plainly tells him that anyone who rejects the Bible's teaching about the Messiah will also refuse to acknowledge the evidence of a miraculous resurrection.
This last verse is a sad prophecy about the Jews who, despite God's resurrection of His son from the power of the grave, have failed to recognize Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah.

Yeshua ends this parable abruptly, with no real resolution presented.


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When I see things like the use of Lazarus' name or Ananias for that matter or other names being used in double unison I usually just put it on a back burner and note the similarities until something gels. Nothing about hell has gelled so far though. Not even sure that's what the parable is about since the reign of the Son's kingdom precedes the GTJ.

cobblestone said:

When I see things like the use of Lazarus' name or Ananias for that matter or other names being used in double unison I usually just put it on a back burner and note the similarities until something gels. Nothing about hell has gelled so far though. Not even sure that's what the parable is about since the reign of the Son's kingdom precedes the GTJ.

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Do you believe in a literal place called hell that has fire?

Jason0047 said:

Do you believe in a literal place called hell that has fire?

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See above post

Jason0047 said:

Q: Are you reading the story of Lazarus and the Rich man as a parable because you do not believe in the existence of hell or you do not believe the story does not sound possible? (or):

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If you re-read my replies....you would see that I state that I was not saying that it is or isnt a parable....It is for me to read and understand and apply to myself...whether you believe it a parable or not. I see no productivity in discussing whether or not the writing is parabolic. I do however, believe that one who pushes others to believe writings as history only, could hinder those, who would, from seeking deeper spiritual truths inside the passages. and only spirit gives life.....literal gets likes.

Jason0047 said:

Q: Are you reading the story solely based upon the text clearly telling you that this a parable?

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The letter killeth and therefore tells me nothing. My mind tries to interpret sometimes as well....then I have to tell it to be still.... then i Ask God for wisdom.. What He tells me, sometimes, are things that my mind would not have thought of....no school or preacher would have told me.....and none here would believe... Which is why I never find any fault it anything you believe.

Jason0047 said:

My guess is that you are being biased or influenced to read the text in the way you do not by what it says but because you have preconceived notions or ideas going into the text. Granted, we are all guilty of doing this at one point or another within our faith when studying God's Word. I myself have done this before. But the key question is: In the end: Will we truly hear what we want to hear or will we hear what God's Word really says plainly?

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This is almost exactly what I feel about you when reading your responses....except, I wouldnt spend time guessing what you do and believe....I would just read your responses and move on, not feeling that they are wrong or right.....but that they are what you are supposed to believe right now....... Therefore how can i find fault in it?

It is a warning to those who would live their lives for themselves rather than obedience to God. Regardless of whether it is a parable or not, the reality of hades is attested to elsewhere.

Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16) – it was not a parable, but a true story. The rich man was a self-centered man, but Lazarus was a poor man who trusted God. When both died, Lazarus went to Abraham’s side and the rich man to Hades. The rich man sincerely thought that his ethnicity, his Jewishness was going to get him to heaven but he was sincerely wrong.

In Hades, the rich man cried out to Abraham (the father of the Jewish people) to save him, but the bible tells us it was sadly too late. This rich man even begged Father Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his family and tell them the truth so they will not end up like him, but Abraham told him that if they do not believe in Moses and the Prophet, they will not believe even if somebody would rise from the dead.

Salvation is based on Mercy and not merits. Only those who would turn to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith will make it to Heaven. Salvation belongs to our God and He offers it to everyone including Jews and Gentiles. The bible is clear, the only way to the Father is through the son – Christ Jesus.

The Only Way.

Willing-heart said:

Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16) – it was not a parable, but a true story. The rich man was a self-centered man, but Lazarus was a poor man who trusted God. When both died, Lazarus went to Abraham’s side and the rich man to Hades. The rich man sincerely thought that his ethnicity, his Jewishness was going to get him to heaven but he was sincerely wrong.

In Hades, the rich man cried out to Abraham (the father of the Jewish people) to save him, but the bible tells us it was sadly too late. This rich man even begged Father Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his family and tell them the truth so they will not end up like him, but Abraham told him that if they do not believe in Moses and the Prophet, they will not believe even if somebody would rise from the dead.

Salvation is based on Mercy and not merits. Only those who would turn to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith will make it to Heaven. Salvation belongs to our God and He offers it to everyone including Jews and Gentiles. The bible is clear, the only way to the Father is through the son – Christ Jesus.

The Only Way.

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So then it has nothing to do with Christianity? How does "before Abraham, I am" tie into that? A question I have been asking myself for some time now.

cobblestone said:

See above post

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You just said nothing about hell gels. That could be talking about just this particular story. But because you are being evasive with a direct answer, it makes me believe that you don’t think hell is a literal place of torment that has flames. Thus, if such is true, this would be the real reason you do not believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is an actual true literal story and it has nothing to do with the text actually says.

cobblestone said:

So then it has nothing to do with Christianity? How does "before Abraham, I am" tie into that? A question I have been asking myself for some time now.

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I don't quite understand what your question is... What do you mean it has nothing to do with Christianity? Anyway, Christ obviously was before Abraham, in fact in the Old Testament, the pre-incarnate Christ was referred to as the Angel of the Lord. Before Christ died for our sins, those who were saved move on from this world to be at Abraham's bosom or side because before Christ, he was the father of our faith. All Christians are of Abraham's offspring not by ethnicity, but faith. Read Romans 4:16.

Jason0047 said:

You just said nothing about hell gels. That could be talking just this particular story. But because you are being evasive with a direct answer, it makes me believe that you don’t think hell is a literal place of torment that has flames. Thus, if such is true, this would be the real reason you do not believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is an actual true literal story and it has nothing to do with the text actually says.

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I said nothing about hells bells either nor was my post directed at you.

Willing-heart said:

I don't quite understand what your question is... What do you mean it has nothing to do with Christianity? Anyway, Christ obviously was before Abraham, in fact in the Old Testament, the pre-incarnate Christ was referred to as the Angel of the Lord. Before Christ died for our sins, those who were saved move on from this world to be at Abraham's bosom or side because before Christ, he was the father of our faith. All Christians are of Abraham's offspring not by ethnicity, but faith. Read Romans 4:16.

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Abraham being the father of faith just as grace is the mother. Justification as well as sanctification. But issues of hell I have no desire to talk about simply because I have.t unravelled anything from the scriptures that places it alongside any doctrine I have heard of. So not getting into that cup a

Willing-heart said:

Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16) – it was not a parable, but a true story. The rich man was a self-centered man, but Lazarus was a poor man who trusted God. When both died, Lazarus went to Abraham’s side and the rich man to Hades. The rich man sincerely thought that his ethnicity, his Jewishness was going to get him to heaven but he was sincerely wrong.

In Hades, the rich man cried out to Abraham (the father of the Jewish people) to save him, but the bible tells us it was sadly too late. This rich man even begged Father Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his family and tell them the truth so they will not end up like him, but Abraham told him that if they do not believe in Moses and the Prophet, they will not believe even if somebody would rise from the dead.

Salvation is based on Mercy and not merits. Only those who would turn to Jesus Christ in repentance and faith will make it to Heaven. Salvation belongs to our God and He offers it to everyone including Jews and Gentiles. The bible is clear, the only way to the Father is through the son – Christ Jesus.

The Only Way.

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God was just talking to my heart about how the rich man was actually Jewish today. When I read the words “father Abraham,” it led me to the conclusion that this rich-man was Jewish and not a Gentile, too.

One thing I do disagree with you on is that the story is not teaching “Belief Alone-ism.” While “Works Alone” (without God’s grace) does not save us, we are saved by God’s grace that is through faith; And faith always shows itself to be true with works of faith that follow. For if Noah just believed God and yet he did not take action to build an Ark as God said (as apart of his faith), he would have perished.

The Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man does not teach us that we can just have a belief alone in the Son and we are saved. You actually pointed out the problem but you are ignoring it. See, many Jewish people thought they were saved by just being a son of Abraham.

John the Baptist said,

This is said in context to John telling them to repent (to seek the Lord’s forgiveness) (Matthew 3:1), and in telling them to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (forsaking sin and or doing good deeds) (Matthew 3:8).

In other words, the Jews believed in “Sonship Alone Salvationism.” They thought they were saved by merely being sons (i.e. sons of Abraham). Today, it is not much different. Believers today think they are saved by believing they are just “sons” (i.e. sons of Jesus) because of a one time prayer. Sin does not take any account into their right standing with God (Which is similar to what the Jews believed).

The Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is but one of many examples in the Bible that shows that true saving faith is always exhibited by works of faith. For we see that the reason why the rich-man was in the predicament that he was in was because he did not love his neighbor (See the Parable of the Good Samaritan, and read a couple of verses before it). For even Jesus Himself essentially said that those who had an opportunity, and do not help the poor in this life will be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46).

James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

Side Note:

Now, you may say something like how a believer receives a new heart and a new nature, etc. but this kind of statement doesn’t mean anything if one’s very message itself can accidentally lead a person to think they can sin and still be saved on some level. For was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

cobblestone said:

I said nothing about hells bells either nor was my post directed at you.

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We are talking on a public thread, so expect other people to chime in on the discussion. Also, you replied to me in post #47. I merely wanted clarification on what you believe.

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NEWSFLASH: THIS STORY IS NOT A PARABLE!

This is not symbolic language. If it was just a parable, there would not be specific names of familiar people like Abraham and his spiritual location. Why describe two locations that exist after death in detail to symbolically mean something else if they did not exist? What moral truth would be gained from something abstract?
Before Christ, the concept of the afterlife was real to the Jews, yet not completely clear. Jesus came and cleared things up about it. Those who did not live by faith, went to Sheol. Those who lived by faith went to Abraham's Bosom, which is to say they were greeted by Abraham and given a welcoming hug. One location had loneliness and torment and the other peace and love.
Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories.
The message to us is that this rich man died and went to a place of fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor is he sleeping. He is consciously aware of his state of existence. He asks for only a drop of water since when he was living, the beggar only asked for scraps of food from him. Notice how his pride is no longer with him and he is humbled. Yet is it real humility or just another act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy and to receive more than a drop. When he realized there was no relief or mercy for him in any way, he asked to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them of this place of torment. What ... more fictitious people? No, they are real and alive on earth, but cannot be warned because as ABRAHAM himself explains, "... besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us." This is more information about this place and a person's state - once you are dead, your state is fixed! Catholics would not agree with this since they believe in an abstract place called Purgatory that allows for one to burn off sins before they can pass over that great chasm. Sorry, Abraham said it's FIXED. Jesus is telling us it is fixed. The last line points to Jesus death and resurrection - also a prophetic announcement of something that will soon take place not about something abstract or symbolic. Many did not believe that He rose from the dead. Also Moses was mentioned, another familiar name.
The concept of Hades was not introduced here, it had been spoken of in numerous passages: Matt. 16:18; Deut. 32:22; Proverbs 9:18, Proverbs 23:13, 14; Isaiah 38:18; Psalm 9:17; 2 Peter 2:4-6; Ezekiel 26:20, 21; Psalm 140:10.
Sheol (Hades), means the grave or pit but is more than just six feet below, it has greater depth. It comes from the word, Shaol, which means to ask, demand or require. Hades is asking, demanding and requiring souls. It is hungry and unsatisfied. Satan is behind this drawing power that tempts the unsaved soul to come to Daddy. People can store up sin and wrath which pulls them closer to their destiny. Fortunately, God has a drawing power as well and IF you happen to be on His list - be thankful. The Bottomless Pit and the Abyss are not abstract places either, they have a location - they are in deeper parts within Hades, separate from these souls, where fallen angels are imprisoned. This is also known as the underworld or netherworld, within the earth. We know fire and brimstone exist beneath the crust of the earth because we see volcanic eruptions - they are real and so are these places. The unbeliever's soul is sent to Hades to await for final judgment. These souls are already judged, but await for God's final Judgment, when He will cast all reprobates into the Lake of Fire (Hell) to be destroyed.
I suppose Jesus, when He condemned the Pharisees, was just telling another parable? "Serpents, brood of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Hell?" Matt. 23:33 Jesus actually said "the Gehenna". The Jews knew exactly what that meant. It was the closest idea of hell that existed on earth, a burning dump outside of Jerusalem, used for dead and diseased animals, garbage. A place that perpetually burned, where the worm did not die. It survived on the outer edges of the smoldering dump. Prior to the Jews occupying this area, the Canaanites used to sacrifice babies to Molech - they would burn them in the arms of their idols red hot arms. Ouch!

FireDragon76 said:

It's a parable and cautionary tale about greed.

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It’s not a parable it’s a true story.