Sabbath day saturday or sunday?

DamianWarS · Oct 24, 2018

curious mike said:
Hey guys, I just read an interesting article here:

Who Changed The Sabbath to Sunday?

The summary of it is that it was the Romans who changed it from Saturday to Sunday so:

What will you believe? Whom will you follow? The God of your Bible—or the traditions of men?

How do you guys see this issue please?

The sabbath is Friday sun down to Saturday sun down and the 4th commandment means to keep it during those hours. This is an issue of new/old covenant where the 4th commandment is under the old

S.O.J.I.A. · Oct 24, 2018

curious mike said:
Who Changed The Sabbath to Sunday?

if we're going to go with "there is no chapter or verse that says "the sabbath was changed to sunday"" you would have to give up the doctrine of the trinity as well as the hypostatic union of Christ's nature. there is no chapter and verse for those either. we arrive at these through proper hermeneutic and harmonization of all of scripture.

the verses pertaining to Paul going to the synagogues to preach were evangelistic endeavors. he didn't go there to worship. he wasn't going to tell them that they were wrong for worshipping on Saturday because the goal was the proclamation of the gospel and not quarrelling about the law. this falls in line with 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 in being flexible(but not sinful) for the sake of spreading the gospel.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Oct 24, 2018

Ken Rank said:
There is a Jewish tradition to fast on the 14th of Nisan (the day the lambs are being sacrificed) and break it at sundown on the 14th, which is the beginning of the 15th, the first evening of Unleavened Bread which was when those lambs would have been eaten.

James, the brother of messiah, did not break his fast at that time, instead, he continued on until morning of first fruits, which is when messiah died. It is also on what we call, Sunday. Some of the Hellenized Jewish believers (Greek influenced Jewish believers) took James' action and the fact that messiah rose on a Sunday and set it aside as a day of observance. We are not sure if they replaced the Sabbath but they did set the day aside each week as if it were a Sabbath.

Fast of the firstborn. Also, where did you get the information regarding James?

GingerBeer · Oct 24, 2018

straykat said:
Because humans, even Christians, are compelled to think superficially and in terms of flesh. Not worshipping in spirit and truth. Our own sinful nature compels us to sometimes think like Satan.. poking and prodding and ACCUSING.. each other and even ourselves. This is one part of the curse of the knowledge of Good and Evil. To see shame and nakedness even when there is none (which makes it not very reliable "knowledge" at all). We have to remind ourselves that God isn't the petty and petulant one: Satan is!!! God knows it's the "thought that counts", even if you get some dates or details wrong. Only Satan would ACCUSE and inflict guilt over it. Especially over celebrating something like Christ's birth.

Paul's admonition needs to be repeated here:

1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. - Rom 14:1-7

In Romans 14 Paul was concerned for people who feared pagan gods being emboldened to eat meat (animal meat) sacrificed to pagan gods. His fears were for them because they still believed that the pagan gods were real in some way. None of this applies to Sabbath keeping or to days of the week.

Days of the Jewish calendar and the week (a Jewish concept at that time) were urged, with fear inspiring doctrines, upon some people who were in the Christian churches in gentile lands, such as Corinth and in the Province of Galatia. The former Jews (or maybe still Jews in their thinking) appeared to be pressing their Jewish observances onto gentile Christians. Paul objected to that. He would not stand for it because it compromised the gospel message of repentance and belief in Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote to the Christians in the province of Galatia

Galatians 4:8-20 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods; [9] but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? [10] You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! [11] I am afraid I have laboured over you in vain. [12] Brethren, I beseech you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong; [13] you know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first; [14] and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. [15] What has become of the satisfaction you felt? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me. [16] Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth? [17] They make much of you, but for no good purpose; they want to shut you out, that you may make much of them. [18] For a good purpose it is always good to be made much of, and not only when I am present with you. [19] My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you! [20] I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.

And to the Corinthians he wrote

2 Corinthians 3:7-18 Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such splendour that the Israelites could not look at Moses' face because of its brightness, fading as this was, [8] will not the dispensation of the Spirit be attended with greater splendour? [9] For if there was splendour in the dispensation of condemnation, the dispensation of righteousness must far exceed it in splendour. [10] Indeed, in this case, what once had splendour has come to have no splendour at all, because of the splendour that surpasses it. [11] For if what faded away came with splendour, what is permanent must have much more splendour. [12] Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, [13] not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendour. [14] But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. [15] Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; [16] but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed. [17] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. [18] And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Paul didn't yield any ground to those who wanted to turn Christians into followers of Judaism.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Oct 24, 2018

Dave-W said:
Paul was the apostle to the gentiles, not the Hebrews. He did not write Hebrews.

Paul wrote Hebrews, you would have to prove beyond any doubt that he did not write it. Until you do I will continue to believe that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews and many of the other books contained in the bible.

1 Cor 9:20-22
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

You would also have to prove that Paul never preached to any Hebrews, or that he was forbidden to preach to any Hebrews.

Ken Rank · Oct 24, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Fast of the firstborn. Also, where did you get the information regarding James?

It's in our library (we have a very large library in our congregation, I imagine one of the largest of its kind) and I will grab the source and post it in a bit.

And yes, the fast of the firstborn. I was thinking it and didn't write it.

Thanks!

klutedavid · Oct 24, 2018

Dave-W said:
Leviticus 23:3
‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.

Holy convocation = community worship service.

Graduation is the term used to acknowledge that you have met your degree requirements and you have been approved by Senate to graduate from the program. Convocation refers to the ceremony where the Chancellor confers the degree.

Dave-W · Oct 24, 2018

klutedavid said:
Graduation is the term used to acknowledge that you have met your degree requirements and you have been approved by Senate to graduate from the program. Convocation refers to the ceremony where the Chancellor confers the degree.

That is the English usage. You need to read the surrounding text to see that is NOT what is being said in the scriptures.

Leviticus 23:2
“Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:

Leviticus 23:3
‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.

Leviticus 23:4
‘These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.

Leviticus 23:7
On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.

Leviticus 23:8
But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the Lord. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.’”

Leviticus 23:21
On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be a perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.

Leviticus 23:24
“Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘In the seventh month on the first of the month you shall have a rest, a reminder by blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.

Leviticus 23:27
“On exactly the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the Lord.

Leviticus 23:35
On the first day is a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work of any kind.

Leviticus 23:36
For seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation and present an offering by fire to the Lord; it is an assembly. You shall do no laborious work.

Leviticus 23:37
‘These are the appointed times of the Lord which you shall proclaim as holy convocations, to present offerings by fire to the Lord—burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each day’s matter on its own day—

Numbers 28:18
On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work.

Numbers 28:25
On the seventh day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work.

Numbers 28:26
‘Also on the day of the first fruits, when you present a new grain offering to the Lord in your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work.

Numbers 29:1
[ Offerings of the Seventh Month ] ‘Now in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall also have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. It will be to you a day for blowing trumpets.

Numbers 29:7
‘Then on the tenth day of this seventh month you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall humble yourselves; you shall not do any work.

Numbers 29:12
‘Then on the fifteenth day of the seventh month you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work, and you shall observe a feast to the Lord for seven days.

HatGuy · Oct 24, 2018

GingerBeer said:
It's the time of year for threads opposing Christmas and other allegedly "pagan" holidays.

The first day of the week is every bit as God given as the seventh day. Why this kind of thing becomes a matter for debate is perplexing. No day is a pagan day, God didn't create any pagans nor any special pagan days.

Christians meet on Sundays because that is Christian practise from the time of the apostles. No further explanation is necessary. The practise exists because Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week. The Holy Spirit also was given by God to the disciples in the upper room on the first day of the week.

In the first century the first day of the week is not set aside to worship the Sun by Jews, Greeks, or Romans. No one seems to have observed a weekly day for religious purposes except the Jews. The Jews had Sabbath on the seventh day of their seven day week. Greeks didn't have a seven day week, Romans didn't either nor did any of the pagans set aside one day in seven for religious observances. So the idea that some pagans imposed a pagan tradition of first day worship upon the 'church' is absurd because pagans didn't have a one day in seven practise for worship.

You win because of Bundaberg !

Ken Rank · Oct 24, 2018

klutedavid said:
Graduation is the term used to acknowledge that you have met your degree requirements and you have been approved by Senate to graduate from the program. Convocation refers to the ceremony where the Chancellor confers the degree.

Absolutely not true. While the English term "convocation" might have a definition somewhere down the line that supports the point you just made (though the online Webster's doesn't support that), it has other more well used definitions. To settle this, one simply needs to look at the Hebrew. In this case, the word is miqra (H4744) which is something called out (i.e. Torah to the people), an assembly, a public meeting, a gathering. It also means a "rehearsal."

The word means to gather, to assemble... and the church has traditionally used THAT MEANING from THAT WORD to call Sunday meetings.

klutedavid · Oct 24, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really Steve, there is not one scripture in all of God's WORD that says that the "LORD'S DAY" is SUNDAY or the first day of the week. Yet we have scripture saying that the "LORD'S DAY" is the Sabbath day.

Now let's look at the scriptures that give the answer to our question

Q. WHAT DAY IS THE "LORD'S DAY" ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?
A. MATTHEW 12:8 [8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Which day is the Lord's Day? THE SABBATH DAY (MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28)

God's WORD says that the SABBATH DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY!

There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)

.............

Now friend's the SABBATH is the 4th Commandment of God's 10 Commandments and there is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says that God's 4th Commandment has been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep SUNDAY as a HOLY DAY. The same as there is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says that SUNDAY is the LORD'S DAY.

John in the book of REVELATIONS 1:10 was in the SPIRIT on the SABBATH DAY not SUNDAY!

HOW WAS THE LORD'S DAY CHANGED TO SUNDAY?

SUNDAY Worship is a teaching and tradition of men handed down by the Roman Catholic Church that has lead many to break and ignore God's 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11)

Hope this helps.

The Sunday service was confirmed in law by the council of Laodicea in 363 AD. This council held in Laodicea was not attended by the bishop of Rome. The Catholic church did not change the Sabbath day into Sunday.

Your in direct conflict with the historical records.

klutedavid · Oct 24, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Absolutely not true. While the English term "convocation" might have a definition somewhere down the line that supports the point you just made (though the online Webster's doesn't support that), it has other more well used definitions. To settle this, one simply needs to look at the Hebrew. In this case, the word is miqra (H4744) which is something called out (i.e. Torah to the people), an assembly, a public meeting, a gathering. It also means a "rehearsal."

The word means to gather, to assemble... and the church has traditionally used THAT MEANING from THAT WORD to call Sunday meetings.

A public meeting, does not imply a celebration of the risen Christ, nor a worship day.

~Zao~ · Oct 24, 2018

The Sabbath is shebat spelt shin as in separating, bet the dwelling place, tav designates a cross or covenant. Altogether it means returning to God’s house through His covenant made with Jesus, Since we are now the temple of God it means separating the house to the covenant.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Oct 24, 2018

klutedavid said:
The Sunday service was confirmed in law by the council of Laodicea in 363 AD. This council held in Laodicea was not attended by the bishop of Rome. The Catholic church did not change the Sabbath day into Sunday.

Your in direct conflict with the historical records.

It was only a REGIONAL synod

klutedavid · Oct 24, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
It was only a REGIONAL synod

It is the first time in recorded church history, that we see church legislation (canon). Dictating that Sunday was the day that Christians focused on.

Whether this was regional or global is not really the point. We know from the council of Laodicea that the Sunday celebration was practiced by churches everywhere. And that this practice of the Sunday celebration had been in place for some considerable time.

Anyone who claims that the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath to Sunday. Is painfully in error, church history refutes this idea.

klutedavid · Oct 24, 2018

You stated the following.

Absolutely not true. While the English term "convocation" might have a definition somewhere down the line that supports the point you just made (though the online Webster's doesn't support that
Convocation)

Now read what the Webster dictionary states.

Convocation
A ceremonial assembly of members of a college or university (Merriam-Webster, online)

You need to retract your statement.

Saint Steven · Oct 24, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
I answered your question. Click on the link in the post you have quoted from. Maybe you did not see it?

HISTORY OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH Click me WIKI.

Yep earlier then your references as is the scriptures that were provided to you where you have provided none.

Why are you limiting sources? You want everyone discuss according to your rules? Who put you in charge?

Saint Steven · Oct 24, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Actually nope that post did not prove your point at all. All the scriptures provided in that post dispute your claims that God's 10 commandments are not mentioned in the NEW TESTAMENT. *ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 13:8-10; MATTHEW 5:17-32; JAMES 2:8-11. etc etc.

Hope this helps

(Staff Edit)

I said the term, or title, Ten Commandments is nowhere to be found in the NT. Which is true. (it's that important) Not worthy mentioning. Here's the closest thing.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

gideon123 · Oct 24, 2018

I hope that one day *someone* on this forum will have a conversation that glorifies God.

These constant arguments do not.

klutedavid · Oct 24, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
All you have provided is references from the Roman Catholic Church. You have not provided a single scripture. On the other hand you have been provided God's WORD yet you choose your references over the Word of God does that not bother you?

HISTORY OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH Click me WIKI.

Hope this helps

Thanks for your reference, History of the RCC.

I will quote from your source.

At first, Christians continued to worship alongside Jewish believers, which historians refer to as Jewish Christianity, but within twenty years of Jesus's death, Sunday was being regarded as the primary day of worship

So we know from HISTORY OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (wikipedia) that the Sabbath. Was redundant as early as twenty years after the resurrection.

Sabbath day saturday or sunday?

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