The "hell question"
- Thread starter zoidar
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Post mortem salvation, I don't know. I was in an accident a few years ago and I almost died from blood loss. I remember as everything turned black my thoughts: "I'm dying!" and "If I die now I will go to hell." I wasn't a Christian at that time, but being "bodily" unconscious I had time to think. There was time for me to turn to God, even I didn't at that time. So maybe the idea of post mortem salvation or being saved the seconds before death isn't totally unlikely.
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- Jan 26, 2007
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it's hard because neither the old man nor the demons want us to do it.
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Post mortem as in post mortem not pre mortem. You obviously did not experience it as you're still among us. It's best described as AT the moment of death. Its not something of the mind or anything, but rather the souls final chance to choose God unhindered by the body and the world. It's the soul facing God.
But as I said I considered this to be highly speculative theology.
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True! But there are stories about people who have been declared dead and come back to life, and coming back with faith in Christ. Of course it's impossible to know for sure the truth of these stories.
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When Jesus was here in body, he gave life back to a few dead people. An example is the dead son to the widow. Do you think this guy believed in Christ after he was awaken from death? Isn't this an example of how Jesus even can reach the dead? Jesus has conquered death, so I hold on to the possibility of post mortem salvation, even we don't know.
Luke 7
11 Soon afterwards He went to a city called Nain; and His disciples were going along with Him, accompanied by a large crowd. 12 Now as He approached the gate of the city, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow; and a sizeable crowd from the city was with her. 13 When the Lord saw her, He felt compassion for her, and said to her, “Do not weep.” 14 And He came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers came to a halt. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise!” 15 The dead man sat up and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother. 16 Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited His people!” 17 This report concerning Him went out all over Judea and in all the surrounding district.
Luke 7
11 Soon afterwards He went to a city called Nain; and His disciples were going along with Him, accompanied by a large crowd. 12 Now as He approached the gate of the city, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow; and a sizeable crowd from the city was with her. 13 When the Lord saw her, He felt compassion for her, and said to her, “Do not weep.” 14 And He came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers came to a halt. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise!” 15 The dead man sat up and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother. 16 Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited His people!” 17 This report concerning Him went out all over Judea and in all the surrounding district.
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~Anastasia~
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One thing I comfort myself with (please note that I am not speaking for the Church, but I don't think she would officially deny the possibility either) ...
Jesus descended into Hades and preached to the souls there. They had the opportunity after death to "be saved". In fact we believe that Hades was emptied, I think. Of course, they were in a position of already having experienced death and time after that, and then Jesus shows up and preaches to them, so disbelief is probably an odd response.
But those who died before Jesus died had that opportunity. While I don't think we can say definitively that God offers the same chance to everyone, it is fitting of His character to do so. And we know that He desires all to be saved - He's not looking for excuses to condemn people on a technicality.
And when talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Jesus makes the curious statement that this sin alone of all sins will not be forgiven "either in this life or in the next". So the implication is that sin can be forgiven in the next life? As long as one doesn't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Which is a matter of debate, but from what I've read, the Fathers seem to mostly say this means to recognize God as God and yet still reject Him (for various reasons).
Many people today reject the Gospel because the Gospel they are presented with is a wrong Gospel. God is mis-represented as someone who is only interested in "Thou shalt nots" or perhaps as a bloodthirsty tyrant who delights in eternally punishing people just for not being able to convince themselves of a particular fact (which may or may not be actually related to the true Gospel), or even someone who creates some (most?) people for the very purpose of condemning them just because it somehow boosts His own glory/ego (God forbid!). What they reject isn't really God Himself. So - maybe - they have an opportunity to respond too God Himself when they DO meet Him after their death? Or perhaps in that case they are judged by their own lives (which may well be another way of saying this defines their response to the true God when they meet Him) ... as the Scriptures mention in Romans 2.
We don't know that anything is fixed until after the judgement. We can pray for our loved ones. God is not bound by time, and prayers made out of love is how we are supposed to act. We have no teaching of how God will use those prayers, but we don't believe prayers made in love are wasted. So pray. And trust God.
(I can't bear the thought of people suffering in eternity either - that's the proper response of love anyway and how we should feel.)
You might like to read about St. Varus. I'll look for a link and paste it in.
ETA this one contains most of what I was looking for. I'm surprised how many google hits didn't include the info - Icon of the Holy Martyr Varus (1VA01)
Jesus descended into Hades and preached to the souls there. They had the opportunity after death to "be saved". In fact we believe that Hades was emptied, I think. Of course, they were in a position of already having experienced death and time after that, and then Jesus shows up and preaches to them, so disbelief is probably an odd response.
But those who died before Jesus died had that opportunity. While I don't think we can say definitively that God offers the same chance to everyone, it is fitting of His character to do so. And we know that He desires all to be saved - He's not looking for excuses to condemn people on a technicality.
And when talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Jesus makes the curious statement that this sin alone of all sins will not be forgiven "either in this life or in the next". So the implication is that sin can be forgiven in the next life? As long as one doesn't blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Which is a matter of debate, but from what I've read, the Fathers seem to mostly say this means to recognize God as God and yet still reject Him (for various reasons).
Many people today reject the Gospel because the Gospel they are presented with is a wrong Gospel. God is mis-represented as someone who is only interested in "Thou shalt nots" or perhaps as a bloodthirsty tyrant who delights in eternally punishing people just for not being able to convince themselves of a particular fact (which may or may not be actually related to the true Gospel), or even someone who creates some (most?) people for the very purpose of condemning them just because it somehow boosts His own glory/ego (God forbid!). What they reject isn't really God Himself. So - maybe - they have an opportunity to respond too God Himself when they DO meet Him after their death? Or perhaps in that case they are judged by their own lives (which may well be another way of saying this defines their response to the true God when they meet Him) ... as the Scriptures mention in Romans 2.
We don't know that anything is fixed until after the judgement. We can pray for our loved ones. God is not bound by time, and prayers made out of love is how we are supposed to act. We have no teaching of how God will use those prayers, but we don't believe prayers made in love are wasted. So pray. And trust God.
(I can't bear the thought of people suffering in eternity either - that's the proper response of love anyway and how we should feel.)
You might like to read about St. Varus. I'll look for a link and paste it in.
ETA this one contains most of what I was looking for. I'm surprised how many google hits didn't include the info - Icon of the Holy Martyr Varus (1VA01)
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Dorothea
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This may help you out. People can only be judged by what they know, not what they don't. If one hasn't ever truly known God, how can he reject Him?
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And so now you are in hell, although since the Dodgers lost the first game, it is probably reduced to Purgatory, eh?
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gurneyhalleck1
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