Absolute Predestination

Dave L

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Free will does not exist. Why do you make it one of your presuppositions? It is a philosophical theory with no basis in fact, no scriptural basis at all.
Why would the Westminster teach against free will and endorse free will at the same time? Could it be you don't understand the broadness of the topic?
 
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Free will does not exist. Why do you make it one of your presuppositions? It is a philosophical theory with no basis in fact, no scriptural basis at all.
The denial of the existence of freewill is a philosophical theory with no basis in fact, and no scriptural basis except for the false one produced through unenlightened interpretations of men relying upon their own passion afflicted and fallen minds; minds which have not been adequately sanctified by the Holy Spirit and so can do nothing but produce heresy through merely human conjecture.
 
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FineLinen

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Why do you capitalize "him", when "him" is a reference to Adam, the first man (not God) who subjected creation to vanity by his own choice to sin?

Dear Fiction: I had no idea Adam 1 had such power! He of course is the one in the equation of Romans 5 in whom the polus were made sinners in comparison with the Last Adam who makes the same polus righteous.

The passage in question is of course Romans 8 from which the 3 questions are presented.

ROMANS CHAPTER 8 KJV

The main accomplishment of Adam 1 is leading the entire human race into despair and the tyranny of change & decay.

The capital is not Adam but the One who in His mighty Plan subjected the same. And why?

The whole ktisis (creation) shall be set free/delivered...
 
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DeaconDean

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Or there is the Orthodox Way, which is simply termed "Orthodox", although sometimes described by the term "synergeia".

Synergy, the doctrine that man co-operates with God, to bring about their own salvation.

"James R. Payton discusses the Eastern Orthodox view of the synergism vs monergism debate as follows:

A distinctive element in the Orthodox understanding of how the Holy Spirit works deification within us is the doctrine of "synergy"--"working together." This working together is the collaboration of God's grace and a person's will."

Payton Jr., James R. (14 January 2010). Light from the Christian East: An Introduction to the Orthodox Tradition. InterVarsity Press. p. 151.

I do not accept that. I am 100% Monergistic.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Dear Fiction: I had no idea Adam 1 had such power! He of course is the one in the equation of Romans 5 in whom the polus were made sinners in comparison with the Last Adam who makes the same polus righteous.

The passage in question is of course Romans 8 from which the 3 questions are presented.

ROMANS CHAPTER 8 KJV

The main accomplishment of Adam 1 is leading the entire human race into despair and the tyranny of change & decay.

The capital is not Adam but the One who in His mighty Plan subjected the same. And why?

The whole ktisis (creation) shall be set free/delivered...

It's not by power that Adam subjected creation to vanity, but by sin, through which he fell out of Communion with God (i.e. "died"). I know that you capitalized "Him" because you're under the impression that it's God who subjected creation to vanity. I seem to recall that the Apostle actually meant that it is Adam who subjected it, through his failure to remain in Communion with God. So, the first Adam subjected it through disobedience, but the second Adam (Christ) restores it through obedience.
 
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straykat

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I don't question predestination at all. It's the logical conclusion of God being eternal and omniscient.

What I do question is ME... or you.. or anyone else knowing anything about it :D

I'm happy with God being full of mystery.. Not just with this, but other things as well. Not that I want to sound like a copout.. because it's easy to ascribe mystery to things that may be knowable. But there are indeed bonafide mysteries. And my puny mind isn't capable of wrapping my head around them.
 
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Synergy, the doctrine that man co-operates with God, to bring about their own salvation.

"James R. Payton discusses the Eastern Orthodox view of the synergism vs monergism debate as follows:

A distinctive element in the Orthodox understanding of how the Holy Spirit works deification within us is the doctrine of "synergy"--"working together." This working together is the collaboration of God's grace and a person's will."

Payton Jr., James R. (14 January 2010). Light from the Christian East: An Introduction to the Orthodox Tradition. InterVarsity Press. p. 151.

I do not accept that. I am 100% Monergistic.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Synergeia does not mean that, as you described it "man cooperates with God, to bring about their own salvation". God alone saves, and alone has the power to save. Yet, God saves those who will to be saved and does not force Himself on those who don't will to be One with Him.

It's probably not good to be fully Monergistic, knowing that neither Christ nor any of His disciples are.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Why would the Westminster teach against free will and endorse free will at the same time? Could it be you don't understand the broadness of the topic?
Both the 1644....and the 1689 chose to use the philosophical terms that are common, and respond as such. Bottom line is that was an accommodation to speak and instruct all manner of persons.
I have never seen and never will see a defense of this false idea.
 
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FineLinen

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It's not by power that Adam subjected creation to vanity, but by sin, through which he fell out of Communion with God (i.e. "died"). I know that you capitalized "Him" because you're under the impression that it's God who subjected creation to vanity. I seem to recall that the Apostle actually meant that it is Adam who subjected it, through his failure to remain in Communion with God. So, the first Adam subjected it through disobedience, but the second Adam (Christ) restores it through obedience.

Dear Fiction: The Last Adam, the Lord Christ, restores the mass (the polus) "made sinners" in the 1st Adam and makes that same mass (the polus) "righteous". The subjection of the mass is not by Adam1 but by the Author of ta panta!

From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists & in Him the all ends..

Not only panta, but "ta" preceding it.

Romans 8:20 - For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope.
 
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Albion

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Of course everyone has a chance. Romans 1 says everyone is without excuse. Everyone. If they didn't have a chance then they WOULD have an excuse.
Hardly. If a person is a sinner--and we all are--and he approaches Judgment without the benefit of saving Faith, it doesn't matter one way or the other whether he had what we might call a "chance." He would be in the category you referred to by mentioning Romans 1: without an excuse.
 
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Dave L

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Both the 1644....and the 1689 chose to use the philosophical terms that are common, and respond as such. Bottom line is that was an accommodation to speak and instruct all manner of persons.
I have never seen and never will see a defense of this false idea.
You still have too narrow of a view of predestination. It also includes the numbers of hairs on any person's head at any given time, and all the details of all that ever existed, exists now, or ever will exist.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Hardly. If a person is a sinner--and we all are--and he approaches Judgment without the benefit of saving Faith, it doesn't matter one way or the other whether he had what we might call a "chance." He would be in the category you referred to by mentioning Romans 1: without an excuse.

The Father gives everyone a measure of faith. It is what He draws all men. It is up to us to choose.
 
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Albion

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DeaconDean

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Synergeia does not mean that, as you described it "man cooperates with God, to bring about their own salvation". God alone saves, and alone has the power to save. Yet, God saves those who will to be saved and does not force Himself on those who don't will to be One with Him.

It is a valid description. Ultimately, salvation is wholly dependent on man and what he choose do with his supposedly "free will". As described in the definition supplies above.

Funny too, the source is one speaking with in EO, and states specifically:

""synergy"--"working together." This working together is the collaboration of God's grace and a person's will."

Which is exactly what I said!

"Synergism is "...the [erroneous] doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives."To put it simply, synergism is the belief that faith is produced by our unregenerated human nature.

"I say that man, before he is renewed into the new creation of the Spirit's kingdom, does and endeavours nothing to prepare himself for that new creation and kingdom, and when he is re-created has does and endeavors nothing towards his perseverance in that kingdom; but the Spirit alone works both blessings in us, regenerating us, and preserving us when regenerate, without ourselves..."

Martin Luther Bondage of the Will, pg. 268"

Source

It's probably not good to be fully Monergistic, knowing that neither Christ nor any of His disciples are.

That's funny in that Jesus said everything He did was dependent on God.

"I can of mine own self do nothing:" -Jn. 5:30 (KJV)

"I can of mine own self do nothing
This is the conclusion of the matter, the winding up of the several arguments concerning the Son's equality to the Father, and the application of the whole to Christ. He had before been chiefly speaking of the Son, in relation to the Father, as if he was a third person; but now he applies what he had said of the Son to himself: and it is as if he had said, I am the Son that can do nothing separate from the Father, and contrary to his will,"

Source

In spite of everything said in the scriptures, it is God that not only calls, but also causes them to be drawn. (Psa. 65:4; Jn. 12:32)

"Monergism is the view within Christian theology which holds that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration,"

Source

Synergists teach that 'All can come to Christ of their own free will', but Jesus teaches that 'no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.' (John 6:65) and all whom He grants will come (John 6:37)

Free Will Synergism Vs. Free Grace Monergism, John Hendryx

"The “Calvinist vs. Arminian” debate is substantially a debate between what is called “monergism” and “synergism.” There is no third option (unless one is willing to affirm Pelagianism). For those who are new to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, the following is a primer on the two perennial branches of theological systems in Christianity. Or to put it another way, there are two very different ways for believers to view their salvation.

In general, the first type (the Arminian-Synergist) affirms what is called “synergism.” Synergists believe that two forces in the universe are necessary to bring about regeneration in the life of the sinner. In specifics, the two forces at work (cooperation) that are necessary to bring about regeneration, or spiritual life, is the will of man and the Holy Spirit (grace).

To put it another way, the work of the Holy Spirit is dependent on the creature’s will, hence, “synergism” (working together). These individuals will sincerely say, “I believe in grace alone.” But in reality, they believe that grace is not alone (sufficient), but that man’s will is necessary for regeneration to be effective.

It could be said that these individuals are “functional” Arminians because even though some will deny the label, their theology functions synergistically (thus, how they identify themselves is inconsistent with what they teach and believe)."

Source

So in spite of you saying I was wrong about synergism, I'm not. Actually I'm quite correct! In synergism, man is responsible in co-operating with God to bring about his own salvation:

"Concerning salvation, is it finished/complete or is there something left to do? Jesus is the Savior of the world and Lord of the universe whether we choose to acknowledge him/it or not.

Another question to ask is: in the process of salvation, who is the ultimate savior? With a synergistic view man is the ultimate savior of himself. Jesus can do his part but it is my decision that ultimately tips the scales and secures my salvation. This is in effect being saved by something we do, a work. Grace/faith + something."

Source

Everything I said, was correct!


If I dare to take any part of God's work in salvation, such as saying of my own free will I chose to accept and believe, means I played some part in bringing about my own salvation.

I will be able to stand up in heaven with a sign and brag that I'm there because I chose of my own free will to believe. I will be able to brag. I will be able to do something Abraham can't do.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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1stcenturylady

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What I was responding to was this comment:

I thought I was responding in context. What did I miss? What do you believe regarding the Spirit's relationship with mankind?

I see it that the Father has given everyone a conscience - their spirit - that the Holy Spirit draws and quickens. But we can let our desires have full reign over our conscience to love darkness, and the Father gives them over to their own desires. He lets them go their own way. The difference is some believe they were born that way - they weren't "elected." No, the Father gives them over to it in the same way that God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart - God gave Pharaoh over to the evil already cultivated and in his heart by his own choice. God didn't cause Pharaoh's heart to be hard as some Calvinists believe, nor did God deliberately cause some to choose darkness and never be saved. Believing that God did that shows a lack of knowing the character of God. God is love.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Why would Paul say this, if the flesh was perfectly sinless along with your born-again spirit?
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16)

Why? Because God doesn't want anyone to perish. In 1 Thessalonians 5 Paul warns not to quench the Spirit. Only those who are righteous and holy will be saved, not those who love the darkness. Revelation 22:11.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The English word rapture comes from a Latin word to be caught up.
The rapture is the last day.
No....I mean free will is a false philosophical construct created by fallen, rebellious man who desire to get out from under the rule and reign of God.

God is sovereign. We are made in His likeness. Man is made sovereign over his own salvation - a concept not taught in Calvinistic circles. Just as Jesus couldn't do many miracles in some areas due to their lack of faith. Jesus couldn't overrule their lack of faith and heal anyway.
 
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Dave L

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Why? Because God doesn't want anyone to perish. In 1 Thessalonians 5 Paul warns not to quench the Spirit. Only those who are righteous and holy will be saved, not those who love the darkness. Revelation 22:11.
Because, we still tangle with the flesh, yet to be resurrected from the dead.
 
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