Christian Perfectionism: Proofs Unsuccessful

Tree of Life said:

The Biblical "proofs" put forward in favor of Christian perfectionism are unsuccessful. Christian perfectionism is a doctrine taught by Pelagians, Semi-pelagians, Roman Catholics, some Arminians, some Wesleyans, and some others. It is the idea that a redeemed person can, in this life, attain to a state of sinless perfection wherein they no longer sin. It's a false and unbiblical teaching that diminishes the true requirements of God's Law and misunderstands the profundity of the sinful human heart. Here are the "proofs" often put forth in support of perfectionism and a few brief words as to why they are unsuccessful.

1. The Bible commands believers to be holy and perfect. Scriptures like Matthew 5:48, James 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:16 (among others) call believers to a life of perfect holiness. Because believers are called to perfection, it is supposed that it is indeed possible and perhaps necessary for believers to reach perfection. The problem with this is that the Scriptural demands for holiness and perfection are not limited to believers. All people - even the unregenerate - are called to be holy and perfect. The Law of God demands holiness from all and it has never been revoked. If the command implies that the one to whom it comes is able to fulfill the command, then we should expect that the unregenerate are also able to be perfect and holy.
   
   
2. Believers are often called "holy" and "perfect" in Scripture. Consider 1 Corinthians 2:6, Ephesians 5:27, Philippians 4:13 and others. If believers are called holy and perfect, it must mean that they are without sin and therefore believers can be without sin. The problem with this, though, is that being called "holy" does not necessarily mean that a person is without sin. Someone may be "holy" in an objective or positional sense but not holy in an existential, moral sense. The Old Testament priests were, for example, holy - set apart for service to God. But this did not mean that they were morally perfect or existentially holy. Likewise, the children of believers are called "holy" in 1 Corinthians 7, but this does not mean that they are without sin.
   
   
3. There are Biblical examples of people who lived perfect lives. Consider Noah, Job, Asa (Genesis 6:9, Job 1:1, 1 Kings 15:14). The problem with this is that the holy men in Scripture are obviously not sinless, these people included. Noah, Moses, Job, Abraham, and all the faithful men of Scripture are presented as very conflicted individuals who have all kinds of faults and unbelief.
   
   
4. John says that those born of God do not sin. 1 John 3:6-9, 1 John 5:18. The problem here though is that John is not saying that a believer cannot or does not commit a sinful act. John is saying that a believer cannot continue in habitual sin as a way of life. John makes it clear elsewhere that believers still have sin in their lives (1 John 1:8-10). Furthermore, the sinless perfectionist cannot use John's words to prove their point because they would end up proving too much. The sinless perfectionist wants to say that sinless perfection is possible. But John would seem to be saying that believers are indeed sinlessly perfect if we take John's words as the sinless perfectionists want us to take them.

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The form of perfectionism I'm most familiar with, if it's properly called that is the Wesleyan entire sanctification doctrine. John Wesley believed that if a person could do everything from a motive of love (agape) such a person could be sinless. They could make mistakes that could be seen as sin, but he himself did not. Wesley was heavily influenced by the Eastern Church Fathers even publishing their works. While I'm not entirely sure I suspect it is related somehow to the Orthodox teaching known as deification (Theosis):

I discussed it briefly here:

You mentioned the Treasury of Merit, it's interesting to note that Martin Luther was addressing that very issue when he ran a foul of the RCC. At first intending to defend the practice against the crass tactics of certain Catholics, he eventually rejected the practice entirely:

The Reformation itself was sparked over this very issue to include the priesthood of all believers and a rejection of the authority of Popes and Councils he claimed contradicted one another.

Mind you, I have fellowshiped with Wesleyans and had no qualms about doing so. I accept all Catholics and Orthodox brethren who profess faith in the risen Savior even when they might not be as eager to extend the right hand of fellowship. Yet this peripheral doctrine potentially detrimental, even though I'm well aware that the intention is to take sanctification seriously and to pursue it to the utmost. I would encourage any believer to pursue sanctification by submitting to the Holy Spirit and bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit to the glory of God. What we are talking about here is a watershed doctrine that continues to be an issue, that those who work in doctrine, need to address in detail. We are getting into the gospel here and how it works and let me be clear on this point, your merit counts for nothing, the atonement of Christ at the cross is the sole deposit into the treasury of merit.

Grace and peace,
Mark

To the Original Poster (@Tree of Life), I wonder if you could give explanation of the following verses together:

1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6.

Jude 1:24 and 2 Peter 1:10-11 are also of interest to me as to what your understanding might be.

Since I am kjv-superior in my understanding, could you please give your understanding of them as they are rendered by the kjv?

1 John 3:7, Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 2:6, He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Jude 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

2 Peter 1:10-11, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall; For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Tree of Life said:

The Biblical "proofs" put forward in favor of Christian perfectionism are unsuccessful. Christian perfectionism is a doctrine taught by Pelagians, Semi-pelagians, Roman Catholics, some Arminians, some Wesleyans, and some others.

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How did Methodists get drawn into this trollstorm? What do you mean SOME Wesleyans? There is only one Methodist Church. We do not have sub-denominations like Lutherans, Baptists, and Pentecostals.

The Nazarene Church also holds to some Wesleyan theology, I beleve.

justbyfaith said:

The Nazarene Church also holds to some Wesleyan theology, I beleve.

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You're talking about one of those weird denominations in Africa that I never heard of till I was in my 30's? I don't know how they have the word Methodist embedded in their names but those denomination have nothing to do with John & Charles Wesley who were Anglican priests their entire lives.

The only reason Methodism isn't just Anglican Wesleyan-style is that Parliament passed a law after the Revolutionary War preventing Anglican priests from traveling to America.

Fascinated With God said:

You're talking about one of those weird denominations in Africa that I never heard of till I was in my 30's? I don't know how they have the word Methodist embedded in their names but those denomination have nothing to do with John Wesley who was an Anglican priest his entire life.

The only reason Methodism isn't just Anglican Wesleyan-style is that Parliament passed a law after the Revolutionary War preventing Anglican priests from traveling to America.

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My background is in the Nazarene church and I don't live in Africa. Universities of the Nazarene have been in existence in Canada for many years.

cobblestone said:

My background is in the Nazarene church and I don't live in Africa. Universities of the Nazarene have been in existence in Canada for many years.

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Never heard of it. I looked it up " The Church of the Nazarene emerged as a union of various Wesleyan-holiness denominations".

What on Earth are "Wesleyan-holiness denominations"??? There is only one Methodist Church. If someone took his writing and distorted it into something else in Canada it's not his fault.

cobblestone said:

My background is in the Nazarene church and I don't live in Africa. Universities of the Nazarene have been in existence in Canada for many years.

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I'm looking at these Nazarene sites and they are FAR more Pentecostal than Methodist. I can't imagine a merger of Pentecostal and Methodist, Pentecostal is the furthest thing from Orthodoxy. That is a theological oxymoron.

Fascinated With God said:

Never heard of it. I looked it up " The Church of the Nazarene emerged as a union of various Wesleyan-holiness denominations".

What on Earth are "Wesleyan-holiness denominations"??? There is only one Methodist Church. If someone took his writing and made a cult out of it in Canada it's not his fault.

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The church of the Nazarene that I went to had very solid foundational teaching. I bible-studied with the core group for years. I don't know about other Wesleyan churches.

Fascinated With God said:

If someone took his writing and made a cult out of it in Canada it's not his fault.

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I think that could be against forum rules.

Tree of Life said:

The Biblical "proofs" put forward in favor of Christian perfectionism are unsuccessful. ... It is the idea that a redeemed person can, in this life, attain to a state of sinless perfection wherein they no longer sin. ...

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The only biblical teaching on perfectionism is patience being the perfect work of having the Word govern the soul. James 1:4-8

cobblestone said:

I think that could be against forum rules.

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Apologies, I changed the post. I've never heard of it and I'm a 6th generation Methodist. It has no connection to the church the Wesley brothers created. Methodist churches are predominantly in the South. Canada? Pentecostals?

My apologies for my cynical attitude, but that sounds totally alien to Methodism in multiple ways.

Tree of Life said:

Maybe you've never heard of the Wesleyan Holiness Churches. There are several denominations in the Wesleyan tradition. US Methodism is just the largest.

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No, I definitely have never heard of such a thing. Your link only says "describes itself as evangelical". Methodists DESPISE evangelicals, or "charismatic" as they use to call them instead. But when I looked up holiness movements I found this "Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement competed for the loyalties of Holiness advocates" in the 19th century.

NO WONDER my grandparent's generation called everything theological they hated "Charismatic". They even referred to "born again" as Charismatic. The term is rarely used today and I had to stop using it because nobody knew what I meant. I had no idea where all that animosity came from until I read just now about these 19th-century holiness groups.

So thank you for making me aware of the cause of this perplexing pervasive animosity my grandparent's generation had towards such a rarely used term today, Charismatic. I've often wondered about the topic over the past 15 years or so after it was too late to ask.

Fascinated With God said:

I'm looking at these Nazarene sites and they are FAR more Pentecostal than Methodist. I can't imagine a merger of Pentecostal and Methodist, Pentecostal is the furthest thing from Orthodoxy. That is a theological oxymoron.

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Actually, the Nazarene Church is very much against speaking in tongues for the most part.

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Tree of Life said:

The Biblical "proofs" put forward in favor of Christian perfectionism are unsuccessful. Christian perfectionism is a doctrine taught by Pelagians, Semi-pelagians, Roman Catholics, some Arminians, some Wesleyans, and some others. It is the idea that a redeemed person can, in this life, attain to a state of sinless perfection wherein they no longer sin. It's a false and unbiblical teaching that diminishes the true requirements of God's Law and misunderstands the profundity of the sinful human heart. Here are the "proofs" often put forth in support of perfectionism and a few brief words as to why they are unsuccessful.

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The Bible says that only the wicked live in a condition where they must sin.

Romans 8:4-11
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

The wicked are enslaved to sin - the righteous are free from that "must sin" condition.


Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you SIN NOT"
1 John 3:4 "Sin IS - transgression of the law"

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Tree of Life said:

By the power of the Holy Spirit we can begin to love our enemies. But we can never do so perfectly in this life because of the sin that accompanies all our thoughts and actions.

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So then in your mind you are slave to sin -- slave to sinning .. .because you have a sinful nature and nothing God has provided in the Gospel frees you from that slavery??

Fascinated With God said:

l. I've never heard a Pentecostal say anything about speaking in tongues. .

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I have never heard anyone say what you just said before you posted it..

BobRyan said:

I have never heard anyone say what you just said before you posted it..

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I edited the post. It is probably because speaking in tongues is totally alien to Methodism and Anglicanism, so while talking about theology I wouldn't think to bring it up. And I have never met an English speaking Pentecostal before I moved to NY.