Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

yet THAT 16th WAS on the 1st day of the week

Click to expand...

depends on what year you use..

AbbaLove said:

Hi Visionary,

Advocates of a "Good Friday" Crucifixion apparently think it's their duty to teach/instruct members of this Messianic Judaism forum that Yeshua HaMashiach's Crucifixion was on a Friday. In fact with thorough due diligence a Jewish Fifth Day (Thursday) Crucifixion is more credible as explained in Alex Tennet's (acclaimed Gold Medal book) chapter "Template Challenge" ... http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TMF_Template-Challenge-1.pdf (begins on p. 365-396). Neither of the two posters in this thread advocating for a Sixth Jewish Day (Friday) Crucifixion can find any reason to dismiss Tennet's Fifth Jewish Day (Thursday) Crucifixion of Yeshua HaMashiach as being less credible than their Jewish Sixth Day (Friday) Crucifixion. In fact the reason they won't read/discuss his research is because they know their Sixth Day "Good Friday" Crucifixion belief is less credible than the Jewish Fifth Day (Thursday) Crucifixion of Yeshua HaMashiach on Pesach, the 14th of Abib/Nisan.

Question: Do you think CF would permit a Messianic Jew to post in a denominational CF forum that Yeshua's Crucifixion was more likely on a Thursday with supportive scripture? A 5th Day (Thursday) Crucifixion is more credible than is a "Good Friday" Crucifixion as documented by Mr. Tennet's thorough research in his acclaimed book, The Messianic Feast by author T. Alex Tennent. And yet advocates of a Sixth Jewish Day Crucifixion (Friday) are allowed to continue to teach a doctrine in this MJ forum that is rightly considered bogus by the vast majority of faithful Messianic Jews and Messianic non-Jews.

AbbaLove

Click to expand...

I think it is teaching/preaching.. and since most of us have "been there and done that".. and we have moved on.. I find it to be sadly lacking in credibility...

As to the "thursday" vs "wednesday", we are not that far apart, but would like you to explain the annual 'first day of Unleavened Bread rest", preparation day, weekly Sabbath.. in other words, where are the two sabbaths that the women prepared the spices before and bought the spices after in your scenario?

I read The Template Challenge and several other chapters. I'll repeat that I wasn't terribly impressed. For all his alleged research, Tennent is blissfully ignorant about a great many things. Maybe you're impressed, but from what I read, his work is just 500 pages of anti-establishment, anti-Catholic drivel as he pretends to objectivity while ignoring every piece of scripture that renders his whole hypothesis null and void.

Most importantly of his issues, I posted the following to you in Post #146:

Here's the chronology of the ten days of the extended Passion week:

• On the first definable day, Jesus passed through Jericho and abode at the home of Zaccheus, somewhere beyond Jericho, but between Jericho and Bethany. (Luke 19:1-10; Matt. 20:29-34; Mark 10:46-52)
• On the second definable day, he traveled to Bethany, six days before the Passover, where he resided until the next day. (Matthew 21:1; Mark 11:1; Luke 19:29; Acts 1:12; John 11:18, 12:1)
• On the third definable day, Jesus sent two disciples to acquire the ass that he rode into the city. Although Matthew, Mark and Luke all give the impression that he proceeded directly to Jerusalem when he reached the area of Bethphage and Bethany, John is clear that it was the day following his arrival in Bethany. (Matt. 21:1-17; Mark 11:1-11; Luke 19:28-46; John 12:1, 12-16) After arriving at the temple and looking around, Jesus departed at eventide and returned to Bethany.(Mark 11:11. The separation of days in Mark occurs between Matt. 21:11 and 21:12)
• On the fourth definable day, Jesus came back to Jerusalem. It was the next morning. (Mark 11:12) He went into the Temple and drove out the moneychangers, and those who were buying and selling. (Matthew 21:2-12; Luke 19:28-45; Mark 11:11)
• On the fifth definable day, which was the following morning, Jesus returned to Jerusalem and taught in the temple. After which, he departed the temple and went to the Mount of Olives, where he revealed in his Olivet Discourse the things that were soon to come. (Matt. 21:18-25:46; Mark 11:20-13:37; Luke 19:45-21:37)
• On the sixth definable day, the next morning, people came to hear him in the temple. (Luke 21:37-38) Jesus was later invited to supper in Bethany at the house of Simon the Pharisee, who tended to the lepers. (Matt. 26:6; Mark 14:3; Luke 7:36, 39-40)
• On the seventh definable day, it was the first day of unleavened bread, when the Passover lamb had to be slain. Jesus sent two disciples to prepare the Passover. He was arrested that night. (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12; Luke 22:7) The chronology of the previous days is confirmed here in the fact that Jesus arrived in Bethany six days before the passover, and this day is the sixth of six days, consistent with the inclusive counting method of the first century. It is in perfect harmony with the "after two days is the passover" statement in Matthew and Mark. Six days before the passover, the passover would have been after six days.
• On the eighth definable day, the morning following his arrest, Jesus was crucified.
• On the ninth definable day, it was the sabbath. The women rested. The priests conspired to guard the tomb.
• On the tenth definable day, it was the first day of the week. Jesus rose from the grave.

All the scriptures are provided to demonstrate this timeline. It is further confirmed by John's "six days before the passover," as well as Matthew and Mark's "after two days is the passover," which coordinate the two timelines and demonstrate that they are harmonious and synchronized.

IF YOU CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH and aren't just a know-it-all, then please consider the following reality:

If the eighth day of this chain of events, when he was crucified, was a Thursday, that necessarily means that the third day, when he rode an ass into Jerusalem, was a Saturday. Assuming per your argument that the crucifixion was also on the 14th, then he would have gone into Jerusalem on the 9th of Nisan rather than the 10th (lamb selection day), which means that the perfect passover scenario isn't so perfect after all.

If we consider instead that the eighth day in the chain of events was a Wednesday, that necessarily means that the fourth day was a Saturday, when merchants and moneychangers were conducting commerce in the temple. And again, assuming per your argument that the crucifixion was also on the 14th, then he would have gone into Jerusalem on Friday, the 9th of Nisan, rather than the 10th (lamb selection day), and renders the perfect passover scenario, again, less than perfect.

So in the interest of truth, for those who actually care about it, how is profaning the sabbath in a fourth or fifth day crucifixion scenario explained? Was Jesus secretly a sinner who profaned the sabbath by burdening an ass? Or were the Jews just getting soft as it concerned commerce in the temple complex on the sabbath? Do tell.

AbbaLove said:

Hi Visionary,

Advocates of a "Good Friday" Crucifixion apparently think it's their duty to teach/instruct members of this Messianic Judaism forum that Yeshua HaMashiach's Crucifixion was on a Friday. In fact with thorough due diligence a Jewish Fifth Day (Thursday) Crucifixion is more credible as explained in Alex Tennet's (acclaimed Gold Medal book) chapter "Template Challenge" ... http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TMF_Template-Challenge-1.pdf (begins on p. 365-396). Neither of the two posters in this thread advocating for a Sixth Jewish Day (Friday) Crucifixion can find any reason to dismiss Tennet's Fifth Jewish Day (Thursday) Crucifixion of Yeshua HaMashiach as being less credible than their Jewish Sixth Day (Friday) Crucifixion. In fact the reason they won't read/discuss his research is because they know their Sixth Day "Good Friday" Crucifixion belief is less credible than the Jewish Fifth Day (Thursday) Crucifixion of Yeshua HaMashiach on Pesach, the 14th of Abib/Nisan.

Question: Do you think CF would permit a Messianic Jew to post in a denominational CF forum that Yeshua's Crucifixion was more likely on a Thursday with supportive scripture? A 5th Day (Thursday) Crucifixion is more credible than is a "Good Friday" Crucifixion as documented by Mr. Tennet's thorough research in his acclaimed book, The Messianic Feast by author T. Alex Tennent. And yet advocates of a Sixth Jewish Day Crucifixion (Friday) are allowed to continue to teach a doctrine in this MJ forum that is rightly considered bogus by the vast majority of faithful Messianic Jews and Messianic non-Jews.

AbbaLove

Click to expand...

Actually you are wrong. I have already provided reasons for a Wednesday crucifixion impossibility and a Thursday crucifixion is only possible IF you use an exclusive method of counting. Your other problem here seems to be that you think ALL MJs believe as you do so you claim what you believe is MJ "doctrine", which it isn't.

AbbaLove said:

​

If AF, the "Thinker", was open to examine other due diligence he would have figured out by now why Visionary's Fourth Jewish 24 hr Day (Wednesday) is more credible as is Tennet's 5th Day (Thursday) Crucifixion (http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TMF_Template-Challenge-1.pdf) than is that of AF's Friday Crucifixion.

Click to expand...

Seriously? So BOTH a Wednesday AND a Thursday crucifixion are credible?? Do you want to pick one? Understand, that about the only thing AF and I agree on is the Fri-Sun scenario. As I have explained to you multiple times is that a Wednesday crucifixion is impossible, unless you want to call the testimony of the eyewitnesses on the road to Emmaus lies. A Thursday crucifixion is only possible IF you use exclusive counting. These are scriptural facts...you can make fun of them and deny them as I have seen you do, even on Shabbat, it is your choice.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Seriously? So BOTH a Wednesday AND a Thursday crucifixion are credible?? Do you want to pick one? Understand, that about the only thing AF and I agree on is the Fri-Sun scenario. As I have explained to you multiple times is that a Wednesday crucifixion is impossible, unless you want to call the testimony of the eyewitnesses on the road to Emmaus lies. A Thursday crucifixion is only possible IF you use exclusive counting. These are scriptural facts...you can make fun of them and deny them as I have seen you do, even on Shabbat, it is your choice.

Click to expand...

..
and your scenario falls apart with the women before sabbath preparing spices and after sabbath purchasing spices.

As you know.. I favor this one... More scripture fits...
Sunday 11th of Nisan 3790 Yeshua enters Jerusalem upon the donkey, the people sing Hosanna, calling him the Messiah. They have chosen Him. Loved and petted by family in the home; in the temple the lamb gains favor as the one to be chosen.

Mark 11:7-11 KJV
7. And they brought the colt to Yeshua, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. 8. And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way. 9. And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10. Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest. 11. And Yeshua entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

Monday 12th of Nisan 3790 Yeshua ministers in Temple There are four days for the Blemish Check
and so He was interrogated by Pharisees, Scribes and Sadducees.

Matthew 26
The Plot Against Yeshua
1 When Yeshua had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2 “As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.” 3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they schemed to arrest Yeshua secretly and kill him. 5 “But not during the festival,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.”…. the disciples prepared the Passover (Matt. 26:19; Mark 14:16; Luke 22:13).

Mark 8:31 Yeshua Foretells His Death and Resurrection
MARK 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: 13. And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14. And Yeshua answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. 15. And they come to Jerusalem: and Yeshua went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16. And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. 18. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. 19. And when even was come, he went out of the city.

Mark 11:20 KJV And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

MARK 14:1 KJV
1. After two days was the feast of the Passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

The Last Supper
17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” To understand the Hebrew mindset, we can see even to this day where an orthodox rabbi will meet on the day before the Passover with His students and conduct a training lesson on the Passover Seder. In the Lubavitch rabbinic movement they gather together the night before the Passover for what they call the “Moschiach’s Supper”. Belief in the eventual coming of the Mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism and Lubavitch is considered a Messiah by many of his followers. The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days. …. they were going to eat the Passover (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12,14; Luke 22:8). The explicit statement of Yeshua that he was eating the Passover with his disciples (Luke 22:15). Y'shua said He had wanted to eat the Passover with them, doesn't mean that what they were eating was the Passover. He could have easily meant that He was disappointed that He would not be able to do so. "And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer" This doesn't mean that He did.

13th of Nisan 3790 Third day of the inspection of the Korban “Pesach” lamb [the Lamb of God]

Evening start of Nisan 14
Last Supper in the House with the Upper Room
14th of Nisan, 3790 Fast of the First Born
Ta'anit Bechorot

Fast of the Firstborn (Hebrew: תענית בכורות, Ta'anit B'khorot or תענית בכורים, Ta'anit B'khorim); is a unique fast day in Judaism which usually falls on the day before Passover (fourteenth day of Nisan). Feast of Unleaven Bread always begins on the fifteenth of the Hebrew month. Unlike most Jewish fast days, only firstborns are required to fast on the Fast of the Firstborn. Usually, the fast is broken at a siyum celebration (typically made at the conclusion of the morning services), which, according to prevailing custom, creates an atmosphere of rejoicing that overrides the requirement to continue the fast. Yeshua doesn't eat.

The next morning, (still 14 Nisan) Yeshua had been tried and was crucified at 9AM.

6:00 AM -~- First Hour
9:00 AM -~- Third Hour
12 Noon -~- Sixth Hour
3:00 PM -~- Ninth Hour

Mark 15:25-33 KJV 25. And it was the third hour, (9AM) and they crucified him. 26. And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 27. And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. 28. And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. 29. And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, 30. Save thyself, and come down from the cross. 31. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. 32. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. 33. And when the sixth hour was come, (Noon) there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour (3PM).

Back at the Governor’s court, Pilate, as though he had no control of his own volition cried out, “I find no fault in him.” Yeshua was found blameless.


Matthew 27:27

At the same moment, the High Priest, Caiphas, in the Temple with the Passover Lamb, cried out, “I find no blame with the lamb.” The lamb was then lead to the slaughtering area, while Yeshua was taken out of the Praetorium to be taken to the mount crest called Golgotha hill to die. In route, the crossbar was thrown across his shoulder, like Isaac carried his own wood for the altar, and there Yeshua walked out to the peak of Mount Moriah.

On the Temple Mount, the eve of the 15th day of Nisan, the cohanim were quickly removing all the lambs and distributing them to the families, who were holding Passover Sedars. At that time a rich nobleman, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a member of the Roman Provincial Council of Judea, an esteemed Elder of the Jewish Sanhedrin and sat on the hereditary seat of David, was removing the body of Yeshua along with the wealthy Pharisee Nicodemus.

Joseph of Arimathea was the brother to the father of Yeshua’ mother, Miriam, and the great uncle to Yeshua HaMaschiach (Yeshua the Messiah). Together, Joseph and Nicodemus took the body of Yeshua and placed Him in a newly cut family tomb. After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a DISCIPLE OF YESHUA, BUT SECRETLY, FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Yeshua; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Yeshua. And NICODEMUS, who at first came to Yeshua by night, also came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. Then they took the body of Yeshua, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. So there they laid Yeshua, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby. -- John 19:38-42, NKJV.

Yeshua on the cross by noon – Passover Lamb is sacrificed in temple by three.. Yeshua dies
Nicodemus and Joseph gets permission to take His body, prepare it and in the tomb by 6 at sunset.

Mark 15:42-43 KJV
42. And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43. Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Yeshua.

John 19:31 KJV 31. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Erev PesachYeshua is put into the grave before sunset Nisan 15th which starts Feast of Unleavened Bread [High Day]
Jewish 4th Day Of Week ~ Abib/Nisan 14 (Roman Gregorian Tuesday evening through Wednesday afternoon)
3-4 hrs of remaining daylight before beginning of Jewish 5th Day
15th of Nisan, 3790 Pesach I
First day resting in the grave

There were two Sabbaths that week that Yeshua died. The first one occurred on the evening of the crucifixion. Luke 23:52–54; Mark 15:42 Yeshua is buried at the end of preparation day before the Sabbath. He is took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone. The “sacrifice” and “festival” could not begin until the sun had set on the western horizon and three stars were seen in the darkness of the heavens that occurred on the “first day” after the seventh-day Shabbat of the Passover weekend. The fact that Yeshua was in the tomb from Wednesday evening (eve of Thursday) until Saturday evening (eve of Sunday), the first day, made this Passover celebration an extra three and one-half days until the “Counting of the Omer” could begin on the first day after the seventh-day Shabbat of Passover.

Jewish 5th Day (High Holy Sabbath ~ 1st Day Feast of Of Unleavened Bread)
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
16th of Nisan, 3790 Pesach II
Second day resting in grave

Third day resting in the grave
Weekly Sabbath starts at sunset
Jewish 6th Day Of Week
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 7th Day Of Weekly Sabbath
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 1st Day Of Week
first 12 hrs are nighttime
(according to scripture most MJs believe Yeshua arose before sunrise)
(3-4 hrs of remaining daylight + 12 hrs of 2nd daytime + 12 hrs of 3rd daytime + 12 hrs of 4th daytime)
(12 hrs of 1st nighttime + 12 hrs of 2nd nighttime + 12 hrs of 3rd nighttime + 11 hrs of 4th nighttime)

"After three days he will rise again" (Mark 9:31) According to Midrashic tradition the soul hovers over the body for three days before returning to God. Perhaps this is why Yeshua waited until into 4th Day before raising Lazarus back to life from his tomb. This astounded the people as did Yeshua HaMashiach's Resurrection "after three days he shall rise again" according to Mark 9:31.

visionary said:

..
and your scenario falls apart with the women before sabbath preparing spices and after sabbath purchasing spices.

Click to expand...

I know I addressed this already. So did Yeshua HaDerekh, in much the same way I did. No one refuted it. So why is it being brought up again as though no one said anything to dispel this notion?

visionary said:

As you know.. I favor this one... More scripture fits...
Sunday 11th of Nisan 3790 Yeshua enters Jerusalem upon the donkey, the people sing Hosanna, calling him the Messiah. They have chosen Him. Loved and petted by family in the home; in the temple the lamb gains favor as the one to be chosen.

Mark 11:7-11 KJV
7. And they brought the colt to Yeshua, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. 8. And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way. 9. And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10. Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest. 11. And Yeshua entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

Monday 12th of Nisan 3790 Yeshua ministers in Temple There are four days for the Blemish Check
and so He was interrogated by Pharisees, Scribes and Sadducees.

Matthew 26
The Plot Against Yeshua
1 When Yeshua had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2 “As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.” 3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they schemed to arrest Yeshua secretly and kill him. 5 “But not during the festival,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.”…. the disciples prepared the Passover (Matt. 26:19; Mark 14:16; Luke 22:13).

Mark 8:31 Yeshua Foretells His Death and Resurrection
MARK 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry: 13. And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14. And Yeshua answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. 15. And they come to Jerusalem: and Yeshua went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16. And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. 18. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. 19. And when even was come, he went out of the city.

Mark 11:20 KJV And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

MARK 14:1 KJV
1. After two days was the feast of the Passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

The Last Supper
17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” To understand the Hebrew mindset, we can see even to this day where an orthodox rabbi will meet on the day before the Passover with His students and conduct a training lesson on the Passover Seder. In the Lubavitch rabbinic movement they gather together the night before the Passover for what they call the “Moschiach’s Supper”. Belief in the eventual coming of the Mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism and Lubavitch is considered a Messiah by many of his followers. The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days. …. they were going to eat the Passover (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12,14; Luke 22:8). The explicit statement of Yeshua that he was eating the Passover with his disciples (Luke 22:15). Y'shua said He had wanted to eat the Passover with them, doesn't mean that what they were eating was the Passover. He could have easily meant that He was disappointed that He would not be able to do so. "And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer" This doesn't mean that He did.

13th of Nisan 3790 Third day of the inspection of the Korban “Pesach” lamb [the Lamb of God]

Evening start of Nisan 14
Last Supper in the House with the Upper Room
14th of Nisan, 3790 Fast of the First Born
Ta'anit Bechorot

Fast of the Firstborn (Hebrew: תענית בכורות, Ta'anit B'khorot or תענית בכורים, Ta'anit B'khorim); is a unique fast day in Judaism which usually falls on the day before Passover (fourteenth day of Nisan). Feast of Unleaven Bread always begins on the fifteenth of the Hebrew month. Unlike most Jewish fast days, only firstborns are required to fast on the Fast of the Firstborn. Usually, the fast is broken at a siyum celebration (typically made at the conclusion of the morning services), which, according to prevailing custom, creates an atmosphere of rejoicing that overrides the requirement to continue the fast. Yeshua doesn't eat.

The next morning, (still 14 Nisan) Yeshua had been tried and was crucified at 9AM.

6:00 AM -~- First Hour
9:00 AM -~- Third Hour
12 Noon -~- Sixth Hour
3:00 PM -~- Ninth Hour

Mark 15:25-33 KJV 25. And it was the third hour, (9AM) and they crucified him. 26. And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 27. And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. 28. And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. 29. And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, 30. Save thyself, and come down from the cross. 31. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. 32. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. 33. And when the sixth hour was come, (Noon) there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour (3PM).

Back at the Governor’s court, Pilate, as though he had no control of his own volition cried out, “I find no fault in him.” Yeshua was found blameless.


Matthew 27:27

At the same moment, the High Priest, Caiphas, in the Temple with the Passover Lamb, cried out, “I find no blame with the lamb.” The lamb was then lead to the slaughtering area, while Yeshua was taken out of the Praetorium to be taken to the mount crest called Golgotha hill to die. In route, the crossbar was thrown across his shoulder, like Isaac carried his own wood for the altar, and there Yeshua walked out to the peak of Mount Moriah.

On the Temple Mount, the eve of the 15th day of Nisan, the cohanim were quickly removing all the lambs and distributing them to the families, who were holding Passover Sedars. At that time a rich nobleman, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a member of the Roman Provincial Council of Judea, an esteemed Elder of the Jewish Sanhedrin and sat on the hereditary seat of David, was removing the body of Yeshua along with the wealthy Pharisee Nicodemus.

Joseph of Arimathea was the brother to the father of Yeshua’ mother, Miriam, and the great uncle to Yeshua HaMaschiach (Yeshua the Messiah). Together, Joseph and Nicodemus took the body of Yeshua and placed Him in a newly cut family tomb. After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a DISCIPLE OF YESHUA, BUT SECRETLY, FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Yeshua; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Yeshua. And NICODEMUS, who at first came to Yeshua by night, also came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. Then they took the body of Yeshua, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. So there they laid Yeshua, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby. -- John 19:38-42, NKJV.

Yeshua on the cross by noon – Passover Lamb is sacrificed in temple by three.. Yeshua dies
Nicodemus and Joseph gets permission to take His body, prepare it and in the tomb by 6 at sunset.

Mark 15:42-43 KJV
42. And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43. Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Yeshua.

John 19:31 KJV 31. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Erev PesachYeshua is put into the grave before sunset Nisan 15th which starts Feast of Unleavened Bread [High Day]
Jewish 4th Day Of Week ~ Abib/Nisan 14 (Roman Gregorian Tuesday evening through Wednesday afternoon)
3-4 hrs of remaining daylight before beginning of Jewish 5th Day
15th of Nisan, 3790 Pesach I
First day resting in the grave

There were two Sabbaths that week that Yeshua died. The first one occurred on the evening of the crucifixion. Luke 23:52–54; Mark 15:42 Yeshua is buried at the end of preparation day before the Sabbath. He is took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone. The “sacrifice” and “festival” could not begin until the sun had set on the western horizon and three stars were seen in the darkness of the heavens that occurred on the “first day” after the seventh-day Shabbat of the Passover weekend. The fact that Yeshua was in the tomb from Wednesday evening (eve of Thursday) until Saturday evening (eve of Sunday), the first day, made this Passover celebration an extra three and one-half days until the “Counting of the Omer” could begin on the first day after the seventh-day Shabbat of Passover.

Jewish 5th Day (High Holy Sabbath ~ 1st Day Feast of Of Unleavened Bread)
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
16th of Nisan, 3790 Pesach II
Second day resting in grave

Third day resting in the grave
Weekly Sabbath starts at sunset
Jewish 6th Day Of Week
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 7th Day Of Weekly Sabbath
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 1st Day Of Week
first 12 hrs are nighttime
(according to scripture most MJs believe Yeshua arose before sunrise)
(3-4 hrs of remaining daylight + 12 hrs of 2nd daytime + 12 hrs of 3rd daytime + 12 hrs of 4th daytime)
(12 hrs of 1st nighttime + 12 hrs of 2nd nighttime + 12 hrs of 3rd nighttime + 11 hrs of 4th nighttime)

"After three days he will rise again" (Mark 9:31) According to Midrashic tradition the soul hovers over the body for three days before returning to God. Perhaps this is why Yeshua waited until into 4th Day before raising Lazarus back to life from his tomb. This astounded the people as did Yeshua HaMashiach's Resurrection "after three days he shall rise again" according to Mark 9:31.

Click to expand...

Just so you know, since you clearly didn't take the time to consider my recent re-post ... If you believe Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Sunday (which I agree with), then he died on a Friday. Including Sunday itself when he rode into the city, there are six definable days according to plain scripture.

Sunday - Rode into Jerusalem, looked around, went back to Bethany. (Matt. 21:1-17; Mark 11:1-11; Luke 19:28-46; John 12:1, 12-16)
Monday - Went back to Jerusalem in the morning and drove out the moneychangers and merchants. (Matthew 21:2-12; Luke 19:28-45; Mark 11:11)
Tuesday - Jesus returned the following morning, taught in the temple, delivered the infamous woes. Later, he gave the Olivet Discourse. (Matt. 21:18-25:46; Mark 11:20-13:37; Luke 19:45-21:37)
Wednesday - Taught in the temple. Later invited to supper at the house of Simon in Bethany. (Matt. 26:6; Mark 14:3; Luke 7:36-40)
Thursday - Preparations were made for the last supper. They ate. Jesus was arrested. (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12; Luke 22:7)
Friday - Jesus is brought before Pontius Pilate and then crucified.

These events are documented in scripture. The separation of days is documented in scripture.

If Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a Sunday, then he died on a Friday. This is not really a debatable point.

visionary said:

..
and your scenario falls apart with the women before sabbath preparing spices and after sabbath purchasing spices.

Click to expand...

Yet the eyewitnesses on the road to Emmaus were WITH Yeshua, and they said that day was the THIRD DAY (Sunday) since the events occurred. Yeshua never corrected them...so a Wednesday crucifixion is impossible.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Yet the eyewitnesses on the road to Emmaus were WITH Yeshua, and they said that day was the THIRD DAY (Sunday) since the events occurred. Yeshua never corrected them...so a Wednesday crucifixion is impossible.

Click to expand...

"today is the third day" (Luke 24:21),
"on the same day" (Luke 24:13),
"on the first day of the week" (Luke 24:1 KJV)
"on one day from the Sabbath" (Luke 24:1 RPT).

So, "What are THESE THINGS that these men referred to?" - from where this three day period started. In verse 18 Cleopas said to Yeshua, "Are you only sojourning in Jerusalem, and have not known the things which came to pass there in these days?" Then in verse 19 Yeshua asked him a question, "What things?" Well this is what we need to know, so look at his reply; "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet powerful in deed and word before God and all the people."

So the things that "these things" referred to in verse 21 are the things concerning Jesus of Nazareth.
This would include his arrest, trial, crucifixion, death, the piercing of his side, his removal from the cross, the anointing of his body, his burial, and the sealing of the tomb on the following day.

Matthew 27:62 And on the next day, which is after the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees had gathered together to Pilate, 63 Saying, Sir, we remembered that that deceiver said, while he was living, After three days I will arise. 64 Command therefore that the tomb be secured until the third day, lest his disciples coming by night, steal him away, and say to the people, He was raised from the dead: and the last deception shall be worse than the first. 65 Pilate said to them, You have a guard: go your way, make it as sure as you know how. 66 So when they had gone, they made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, with a guard.

How can we know that this sealing of the tomb was one of the events included in "these things" (Luke 24:21)? The meeting of the scribes and Pharisees with Pontius Pilate was "about", "concerning", or "to do with" Yeshua. The sealing of the tomb was "about", "concerning", or "to do with" Jesus, which is what the Greek word περὶ (Gtr. peri) translated "concerning" means. So the things that the disciples were talking about, "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth" (Luke 24:19), would have included the sealing of the tomb. It cannot be said that this only refers to events that happened while Jesus was alive, because 'peri' is often used in other places concerning dead people, and Jesus after he died (Matthew 17:13, Acts 1:16, 25:9, 28:23, 28:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13, 1 John 5:9, 5:10, Jude 1:9).

The sealing of the tomb was done when? If the events referred to were only his arrest, trial, crucifixion, and death, and nothing after, then the disciples would have been referring to events that happened "on that day" - the Passover. But they referred to, "the things which came to pass there in these days" (Luke 24:18). Note the plural "days", and note also that the word "there" refers to "in Jerusalem" (Luke 24:18). So they must have referred to events on more than one day, namely 14th and 15th Nisan, the Passover and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. (Matthew 26:17-18, Mark 14:12-13).

After the sealing of the tomb, little is recorded in scripture of anything that happened until the women came to the tomb on Sunday morning. There are therefore two complete days, the 16th and 17th of Nisan, where nothing is recorded about what the Romans or the Jews did concerning Jesus. Sunday was therefore the third day after the sealing of the tomb. This is the same third day that the chief priests and the Pharisees mentioned when they said, "Command therefore that the tomb be secured until the third day" (Matthew 27:64). This referred to the day after the Sabbath as the guards were still there that morning (Matthew 28:4); the same day that the disciples were on the Emmaus road. This is what "this is the third day" (Luke 24:21) refers to.

AbbaLove said:

​

Have you read Tennet's "Template Challenge" ... http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TMF_Template-Challenge-1.pdf (begins on p. 365-396). He favors the 'first day of Unleavened Bread rest' falling on the 6th Day of the week following the 5th Day that year being the 14th of Abib/Nisan). Will post the following brief even though our two "Friday" advocates seem unteachable to a more likely Crucifixion timeline. They're unreceptive to the two timelines favored by Messianic Judaism more than the "church's" own misinterpreted timeline that's embedded in the liturgy of most denominational as well as non-denominational churches.

The Fallacy Of A Friday Crucifixion
(according to: Matthew 12:40, Mark 9:31, John 2:19)
​

Jewish 6th Day Of Week ~ Abib/Nisan 14 (Roman Gregorian Thursday evening through Friday afternoon)
3-4 hrs of remaining daylight before beginning of Jewish 7th Day
Jewish 7th Day Of Weekly Sabbath
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 1st Day Of Week
first 12 hrs are nighttime
(some churches teach that Yeshua arose at sunrise?)
(3-4 hrs of remaining daylight + 12 hrs of 2nd daytime + 1 minute into 3rd daytime)
(12 hrs of 1st nighttime + 12 hrs of 2nd nighttime are only two nights therefore a Friday Cruifixion doesn't qualify as occurring over "three 24 hr days" Yeshua means what He says and says what He means ... "so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" ... Therefore a Friday Crucifixion can't be justified according to Yeshua's own Words ... "and three nights."

Elapsed Time Of A Jewish 5th Day Crucifixion
​

Jewish 5th Day Of Week ~ Abib/Nisan 14 (Roman Gregorian Wednesday evening through Thursday afternoon)
3-4 hrs of remaining daylight before beginning of Jewish 6th Day
Jewish 6th Day (High Holy Sabbath ~ 1st Day of Feast of Of Unleavened Bread)
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 7th Day Of Weekly Sabbath
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 1st Day Of Week
first 12 hrs are nighttime
(according to scripture most Messianics believe Yeshua arose before sunrise )
(3-4 hrs of remaining daylight + 12 hrs of 2nd daytime + 12 hrs of 3rd daytime)
(12 hrs of 1st nighttime + 12 hrs of 2nd nighttime + 12 hrs of 3rd nighttime )

Elapsed Time Of A Jewish 4th Day Crucifixion​

Jewish 4th Day Of Week ~ Abib/Nisan 14 (Roman Gregorian Tuesday evening through Wednesday afternoon)
3-4 hrs of remaining daylight before beginning of Jewish 5th Day
Jewish 5th Day (High Holy Sabbath ~ 1st Day Feast of Of Unleavened Bread)
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 6th Day Of Week
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 7th Day Of Weekly Sabbath
first 12 hrs are nighttime
next 12 hrs are daytime
Jewish 1st Day Of Week
first 12 hrs are nighttime
(according to scripture most MJs believe Yeshua arose before sunrise)
(3-4 hrs of remaining daylight + 12 hrs of 2nd daytime + 12 hrs of 3rd daytime + 12 hrs of 4th daytime)
(12 hrs of 1st nighttime + 12 hrs of 2nd nighttime + 12 hrs of 3rd nighttime + 11 hrs of 4th nighttime )

Click to expand...

The fallacy here is the belief that it HAD to be a certain number of hours. Once you understand that fallacy, the truth emerges...

For some reason, the entire quote is always left out. Yeshua would often say things partially to the Pharisees, He would never give them the entire story. He often spoke only in parables too. He said: "An EVIL and ADULTEROUS nation seeks a sign". Yet a man dead in the grave for 3 days is a sign to no one. He NEVER finishes it for them. Those who knew the story of Yonah had an idea of the end game. Yeshua also said: “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here." Luke 11:30

[QUOTE="visionary, post: 73301544, member: 30303
So the things that "these things" referred to in verse 21 are the things concerning Jesus of Nazareth.
This would include his arrest, trial, crucifixion, death, the piercing of his side, his removal from the cross, the anointing of his body, his burial, and the sealing of the tomb on the following day.

Matthew 27:62 And on the next day, which is after the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees had gathered together to Pilate, 63 Saying, Sir, we remembered that that deceiver said, while he was living, After three days I will arise. 64 Command therefore that the tomb be secured until the third day, lest his disciples coming by night, steal him away, and say to the people, He was raised from the dead: and the last deception shall be worse than the first. 65 Pilate said to them, You have a guard: go your way, make it as sure as you know how. 66 So when they had gone, they made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, with a guard.

[/QUOTE]

ALL those events occurred on the 14th, all on the same day, a Friday. The preparation day (in Greek "paraskeve") is ALWAYS the day before (Erev Shabbat) the WEEKLY Sabbath (see Josephus, Ant. 16:163 and Didache 8:1). Remember, the guards were still guarding the tomb at the resurrection.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

[QUOTE="visionary, post: 73301544, member: 30303
So the things that "these things" referred to in verse 21 are the things concerning Jesus of Nazareth.
This would include his arrest, trial, crucifixion, death, the piercing of his side, his removal from the cross, the anointing of his body, his burial, and the sealing of the tomb on the following day.

Matthew 27:62 And on the next day, which is after the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees had gathered together to Pilate, 63 Saying, Sir, we remembered that that deceiver said, while he was living, After three days I will arise. 64 Command therefore that the tomb be secured until the third day, lest his disciples coming by night, steal him away, and say to the people, He was raised from the dead: and the last deception shall be worse than the first. 65 Pilate said to them, You have a guard: go your way, make it as sure as you know how. 66 So when they had gone, they made the tomb secure, sealing the stone, with a guard.

Click to expand...

ALL those events occurred on the 14th, all on the same day, a Friday. The preparation day (in Greek) is ALWAYS the day before the Sabbath (Erev Shabbat). Remember, the guards were still guarding the tomb at the resurrection.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying the sealing happened during the Sabbath?

visionary said:

ALL those events occurred on the 14th, all on the same day, a Friday. The preparation day (in Greek) is ALWAYS the day before the Sabbath (Erev Shabbat). Remember, the guards were still guarding the tomb at the resurrection.

Click to expand...

So you are saying the sealing happened during the Sabbath?[/QUOTE]
That's not an issue if the Romans were the ones who did the sealing.

visionary said:

ALL those events occurred on the 14th, all on the same day, a Friday. The preparation day (in Greek) is ALWAYS the day before the Sabbath (Erev Shabbat). Remember, the guards were still guarding the tomb at the resurrection.

Click to expand...

So you are saying the sealing happened during the Sabbath?[/QUOTE]

A ROMAN seal put on the tomb? What do you think...

AFrazier said:

• On the seventh definable day, it was the first day of unleavened bread, when the Passover lamb had to be slain. Jesus sent two disciples to prepare the Passover. He was arrested that night. (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12; Luke 22:7) The chronology of the previous days is confirmed here in the fact that Jesus arrived in Bethany six days before the passover, and this day is the sixth of six days, consistent with the inclusive counting method of the first century. It is in perfect harmony with the "after two days is the passover" statement in Matthew and Mark. Six days before the passover, the passover would have been after six days.
• On the eighth definable day, the morning following his arrest, Jesus was crucified.
• On the ninth definable day, it was the sabbath. The women rested. The priests conspired to guard the tomb.
• On the tenth definable day, it was the first day of the week. Jesus rose from the grave.

Click to expand...

I agree that Yeshua died on a Friday, but I do not understand your timeline. Your "eighth" day would be Abib 14 for that is the day the Passover lambs were killed, with Yeshua's death fulfilling that timing exactly to the day and hour. That would make your "seventh" day Abib 13, but you say the Passover lamb was slain that day. Do you not believe Yeshua was slain at the exact same time the Passover lambs were normally slain?

gadar perets said:

I agree that Yeshua died on a Friday, but I do not understand your timeline. Your "eighth" day would be Abib 14 for that is the day the Passover lambs were killed, with Yeshua's death fulfilling that timing exactly to the day and hour. That would make your "seventh" day Abib 13, but you say the Passover lamb was slain that day. Do you not believe Yeshua was slain at the exact same time the Passover lambs were normally slain?

Click to expand...

For clarification, it's not my timeline. That's the scripture. I just gave a summary with citations.

No, my [the] seventh day is Nisan / Abib 14th, because that is the first day when they had to consume unleavened bread, and the day when the passover was killed. Again, it is directly from Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7. Don't assign the dates as you see them theologically. Put them where they belong.

The difficulty you, and many others, have with the timeline as shown from the gospels is that you're trying to force a physical chronology to match an imposed theology. Because Jesus, our passover, has been slain, it is assumed by many that he had to have died on the 14th according to the specifics of the ritual. But that's not what the gospels say.

According to the gospels, the afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was slain (Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7). That puts the last supper on the evening of the 14th as it became the 15th at sunset. And that, consequently, puts the crucifixion on the 15th, since it happened the following morning.

And since we know that he died on the day of the preparation, and that the sabbath was about to start, we know that he died on a Friday. The argument that he died on any other day fails from the moment it is accepted that he died on the 15th rather than the 14th. For a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion to be possible, it would require his death on the 14th so the holy convocation of the 15th could satisfy the sabbath requisite of the following day. But if he died on the 15th, which the gospels plainly show that he did, then the day following the crucifixion was the 16th, and could have only been a sabbath if that sabbath was the seventh day sabbath. The 16th is not a sabbath of any sort, even by inference or implication, unless it falls on a Saturday.

Furthermore, with first fruits, the waving of the sheaf, and the counting of the omer beginning on the 16th at that point in history (citations previously given, but can be given again if needed), it made the sabbath the next day, following the day of the crucifixion, a high day. Thus, great was the day of that sabbath.

There are a dozen smaller, ancillary issues that prove it as well.