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YeshuaFan

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I don’t think people make an idol of the Bible. That to me is a silly argument as it is God’s Word.

I think it is much more problematic those who minimize God’s Word.
The only ones who do that would be the KJVO!
 
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YeshuaFan

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Without wishing to sidetrack the debate, I always thought roughly half of trinitarian churchgoers believed Jesus was a created being if you like, at some point pre the biblical beginning(creation) and they solely referred to Christ as the Son of God. This is based on what I have experienced, in many protestant denominations. I do not view it as surprising, as I myself have never heard it plainly stated otherwise in any sermon I have heard preached in many various denominational churches.
NO true Christian sees Jesus as a created being, for he was and is God Incarnate!
 
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YeshuaFan

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So do you believe that God is limited by the bible and that he only reveals himself through it alone and in no other way, and that if the bible were suddenly to be destroyed tomorrow that there would be no more God or Christianity? No Jesus? None of it ever happened? Because the very foundation of our faith (being the bible in this scenario) as Christians is no more? That God exists and Jesus was resurrected *only* because the bible tells us it is true? And that if we can't concoct all sorts of fantastic explanations to "prove" that there are no historical or scientific errors, or that there are no contradictions anywhere at all in scripture...if *biblical* (vs. *God*) inerrancy were disproved, then our entire faith would utterly collapse?

Because there *are* people that sincerely believe the above.

In fact, I just this morning read a survey from Lifeway that showed that something like 76% of evangelicals believe that Jesus Christ was *created* by God, and a large percentage believe that the Holy Spirit is simply a powerful force rather than a divine being (God), and all sorts of other similar things. And having participated in numerous conversations here on CF, I don't doubt at all the accuracy of the survey or find it difficult to imagine that many people confuse the authority of scripture with the authority of God himself.

And when people speak of God's Word, there is a difference between God's "logos" (translated as Word, but represents Jesus) and God's "biblos" (also translated as Word, but represents written scripture) and yet many people make no distinction between the two because it's not clear in English translations that there is a difference.

It's not a silly argument because this mix-up creates all sorts of confusion and even outright heresies due to the "sola" God being the bible rather than God.
Only the Bible is the inspired word from God to us, His special revelation of Himself.
 
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BibleloverBill

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Only the Bible is the inspired word from God to us, His special revelation of Himself.

I believe that statement, but I don't believe what bekkilyn said.

Read the documents that I gave Urls for about what most SDAers believe.

I no longer attend SDA churches for various reasons, but I believe in God's Cathedral of Time from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. But I have attended many Sunday services too. All of the denominations and even the Roman Catholic Church and the cults believe and teach a lot of Bible truths, but they all have unBiblical beliefs and doctrines too.

And I have experienced all of the spiritual gifts mentioned in the New Testament. I live and encourage Proverbs 3:5-6 and Jude 20-23 living. I also do a "Watchman on the wall" ministry too.
 
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BibleloverBill

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The only ones who do that would be the KJVO!
The KJVO people are wrongly judgmental. The Holy Spirit can help an true seeker of God's truths in almost any Bible translation. I was even told by two KJVO pastors I needed to condemn all of the other translations and Evangelist Billy Graham in order to continue intending their Baptist church.
 
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BibleloverBill

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Gospel of John

Chapter 13

31 Therefore when he (Judas) had gone out, Jesus said,

“Now is The Son Of Man glorified,

and God is glorified in Him;

32 If God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself,

and will glorify Him immediately.

33 Little children, I am with you a little while longer.

You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you,

‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’

34 A new commandment I give to you,

that you love one another,

even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

35 By this all men (all women) will know that you are My Disciples,

if you have love (agapè) for one another.”
 
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BibleloverBill

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Most SDAers thing there religion is God's favorite, but that is not true for many reasons.

My Responses to Some Seventh Day Adventist’ Teachings

(by Bible Lover Bill)


***The Sabbath time (Friday evening until Sundown Saturday) has the most blessings.

Back on July 16, 1999, after I read “The Marked Bible” book's Tenth Chapter

and I decided to keep the Sabbath and seek out a church that did.,

The church I chose just happened to have a discussion about the Sabbath in the Pastor's Class

(one of 27 chapters of the doctrines book they were using).

I was “told” by the Holy Spirit that I had had my best intercessory prayer times in the past

during the Sabbath time

and I felt a wonderful peace about that

as I remembered when I did most of my unselfish praying.

When there is no Sabbath keeping church I can go to so I do the following:

By living Proverbs 3:5-6, I plan to begin Friday evening thinking more about and communicating with God

more than I usually do.

During the Sabbath time,

I sometimes watch a Christian film (either Friday evening or Saturday morning).

I listen to Rejoice radio or Word of Truth radio, do intercessory prayer,

watch Bible study programs via the Internet, or/and do ministry as the Holy Spirit urges.

I usually do not look at the Sports news or go shopping or do other selfish things

during “God's cathedral of time”.

I also usually do a Bible study tool for most of Saturday

because for me that is not work at all.

I usually don't have time to do such during the 6 days before.

Sometimes I take a nap.

Most of the time when I do the above list,

I have been blessed much more than when I have gone to a Sabbath keeping church

to have a wonderful Sabbath

because most attenders of such churches are legalistically keeping the Sabbath

only for 2-5 hours.

Same thing for Sunday church goers.

(Most of the time since 2000, I have gone to such too

usually for Bible teaching, which was a weakness in SDA churches.)

I have rebuked those who are against those who don’t worship on the day they do.

It is not a Salvation issue right now.

But Jesus Christ said that if we love Him, we would obey His commandments

and He was the one that wrote the Ten Commandments twice on Tablets (God the Father is a spirit).

He also said that He did not come to destroy God’s Law (not including the ordinances)

and they are indicated in the 1,050 commandments of the New Testament.


***Ignored or misunderstood Commandment is the 4th Commandment of the Ten Commandments.

The Day was blessed and sanctified in Genesis 1 and was changed by King Constantine and a Roman Catholic Pope.

The Two Great Commandments and the Ten Commandments are actually all through the Bible

in certain verses (directly quoted or implied) and examples.

I changed my main God-focus day on July 16, 1999, but I still go to churches that meet on Sunday too.

I do not use the Sabbath time (from Friday sundown until Saturday sundown)

the way it was done in the Old Testament Times by the Israelites.

Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul did not just rest during the Sabbath time.

Keeping the Sabbath like Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul did is no yoke or bondage.

And circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments.

The rules and ordinances for the Israelites are not for today's Christians.

I do whatever The Holy Spirit urges, and that can be even doing Internet ministry most of awake time.

I don't feel that Internet ministry is work because I usually have enjoyable times.

I usually spend many hours doing ETRSF Bible study tool developing

because such is wonderful to me and not work.

I do not look at Yahoo Sports news and much less at the other news as I do the other days.

I do intercessory prayer whenever The Holy Spirit urges.

I watch much less TV during that time than the other days, and much more Christian TV then than the secular.

Sometimes I have the worship music of Rejoice radio or DayStar on much much more than the other days.

Sometimes we take a one day trip somewhere on Saturday or I take a nap in the afternoon.

Results of the above: A lot of divine peace, divine joy, and more spiritual understandings,

more of such than I receive the other days of the week

which are usually for my fulltime Internet ministries.

Try such and you might like it too.

More free information about the Sabbath, go to Box .

 
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YeshuaFan

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Most SDAers thing there religion is God's favorite, but that is not true for many reasons.

My Responses to Some Seventh Day Adventist’ Teachings

(by Bible Lover Bill)


***The Sabbath time (Friday evening until Sundown Saturday) has the most blessings.

Back on July 16, 1999, after I read “The Marked Bible” book's Tenth Chapter

and I decided to keep the Sabbath and seek out a church that did.,

The church I chose just happened to have a discussion about the Sabbath in the Pastor's Class

(one of 27 chapters of the doctrines book they were using).

I was “told” by the Holy Spirit that I had had my best intercessory prayer times in the past

during the Sabbath time

and I felt a wonderful peace about that

as I remembered when I did most of my unselfish praying.

When there is no Sabbath keeping church I can go to so I do the following:

By living Proverbs 3:5-6, I plan to begin Friday evening thinking more about and communicating with God

more than I usually do.

During the Sabbath time,

I sometimes watch a Christian film (either Friday evening or Saturday morning).

I listen to Rejoice radio or Word of Truth radio, do intercessory prayer,

watch Bible study programs via the Internet, or/and do ministry as the Holy Spirit urges.

I usually do not look at the Sports news or go shopping or do other selfish things

during “God's cathedral of time”.

I also usually do a Bible study tool for most of Saturday

because for me that is not work at all.

I usually don't have time to do such during the 6 days before.

Sometimes I take a nap.

Most of the time when I do the above list,

I have been blessed much more than when I have gone to a Sabbath keeping church

to have a wonderful Sabbath

because most attenders of such churches are legalistically keeping the Sabbath

only for 2-5 hours.

Same thing for Sunday church goers.

(Most of the time since 2000, I have gone to such too

usually for Bible teaching, which was a weakness in SDA churches.)

I have rebuked those who are against those who don’t worship on the day they do.

It is not a Salvation issue right now.

But Jesus Christ said that if we love Him, we would obey His commandments

and He was the one that wrote the Ten Commandments twice on Tablets (God the Father is a spirit).

He also said that He did not come to destroy God’s Law (not including the ordinances)

and they are indicated in the 1,050 commandments of the New Testament.


***Ignored or misunderstood Commandment is the 4th Commandment of the Ten Commandments.

The Day was blessed and sanctified in Genesis 1 and was changed by King Constantine and a Roman Catholic Pope.

The Two Great Commandments and the Ten Commandments are actually all through the Bible

in certain verses (directly quoted or implied) and examples.

I changed my main God-focus day on July 16, 1999, but I still go to churches that meet on Sunday too.

I do not use the Sabbath time (from Friday sundown until Saturday sundown)

the way it was done in the Old Testament Times by the Israelites.

Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul did not just rest during the Sabbath time.

Keeping the Sabbath like Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul did is no yoke or bondage.

And circumcision is not in the Ten Commandments.

The rules and ordinances for the Israelites are not for today's Christians.

I do whatever The Holy Spirit urges, and that can be even doing Internet ministry most of awake time.

I don't feel that Internet ministry is work because I usually have enjoyable times.

I usually spend many hours doing ETRSF Bible study tool developing

because such is wonderful to me and not work.

I do not look at Yahoo Sports news and much less at the other news as I do the other days.

I do intercessory prayer whenever The Holy Spirit urges.

I watch much less TV during that time than the other days, and much more Christian TV then than the secular.

Sometimes I have the worship music of Rejoice radio or DayStar on much much more than the other days.

Sometimes we take a one day trip somewhere on Saturday or I take a nap in the afternoon.

Results of the above: A lot of divine peace, divine joy, and more spiritual understandings,

more of such than I receive the other days of the week

which are usually for my fulltime Internet ministries.

Try such and you might like it too.

More free information about the Sabbath, go to Box .
The Jewish sabbath was NEVER given in the NT to the Church, but all of the other 9 Comkmandments were back back over unto the church in the NT!
 
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BibleloverBill

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The Jewish sabbath was NEVER given in the NT to the Church, but all of the other 9 Comkmandments were back back over unto the church in the NT!

I am not talking about the Jewish Sabbath. The Sabbath I am talking about was started in Genesis 1 and Isaiah 58 said it is forever. The Ten Commandments were not just for the Israelites/Jews and they were expanded by Jesus Christ, especially in His Sermon of the Mount.
 
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bekkilyn

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Without wishing to sidetrack the debate, I always thought roughly half of trinitarian churchgoers believed Jesus was a created being if you like, at some point pre the biblical beginning(creation) and they solely referred to Christ as the Son of God. This is based on what I have experienced, in many protestant denominations. I do not view it as surprising, as I myself have never heard it plainly stated otherwise in any sermon I have heard preached in many various denominational churches.

Though I wish I found it surprising, the results of the survey didn't really surprise me, though I did find the results to be disturbing. I'm probably going to address some of these topics in church in the upcoming weeks because while it's one thing to argue over a sabbath day, but a whole other thing when it concerns what I at least consider to be essential Christian doctrine, such as the nature of the Trinity, Christ, etc.

The only ones who do that would be the KJVO!

I could only wish it was limited to the KJVO crowd! But when I'm basically told that the only experience we can have concerning God is through reading a text and anything else would be "feelings" or invalid in some other way, I have to wonder if people forget that we are worshiping a *living* God who is present with us right NOW.

Don't get me wrong...I have an extremely high regard for scripture, but it must not and cannot take the place of God....the *living* Word.
 
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BobRyan

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The Jewish sabbath was NEVER given in the NT to the Church,

Now for actual fact.

1. The Bible Sabbath was given to "mankind" according to Christ in Mark 2:27.
2. There is not one text in all of scripture calling God's Sabbath "the Jewish Sabbath"
3. making stuff up - is not a valid form of establishing sound doctrine.

"the seventh day the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10
"the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23
Gentiles specifically targeted for blessing for Sabbath keeping - Isaiah 56:6-8

I prefer the Bible to "making stuff up" and I am sure you would agree - that is very much better.
 
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BobRyan

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I don't know why you would have a problem with the concept of picking and choosing what part of the bible we prefer to believe

I have a problem with it because it is what the "believe whatever you feel and don't worry so much about what the Bible says" group chooses.

I have a problem with it because it is what the "I don't like sola-scriptura testing of the Bible to see if a given doctrine is true or false" group chooses to do.

I have a problem with it - because it is foundational to the dark ages persecution of the saints.

I know this comes as a bit of a surprise to you -- but for many others on this board it is merely stating "the obvious"

I notice that you left out the other half of my quote.

The first part of you post brings up a detail, a topic, that deserves specific focus - for those who imagine that "pick and choose" is anything remotely approved of under the standard practice of exegesis and truthful accurate rendering of the text and testing of doctrine.

If you have such a problem with it, then why do you cherry-pick only the scripture that seems to support your sabbath-central theology

I suppose I could "quote the entire Bible every time I wanted to demonstrate a point" but that would wash out the entire benefit. As both agree.

It is far better to be succinct - and zero in with laser focus on "the fact" and what the Bible says about it.

In response - someone will likely point to some other verse saying that they think that verse modifies or deletes some other verse. I love adding clarity for them on that suggestion when the opportunity arises.

The thing about "sola scripture" is that it typically means the entire bible and not just the parts

In fact it does not mean "quote the entire Bible any time you want to make a point".

But it does mean that what scripture says on a given topic is to have bearing on the subject. I point to "details" that make it impossible to be at war with God's Sabbath Commandment for the objective unbiased Bible student.

Those "details" are so irrefutable that the "need" to be ignored by those who choose to be at war with God's Commandments for their argument to fly. Thus my preference is "scripture" and not "feelings" as the test of doctrine.

Romans 10 "Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Without wishing to sidetrack the debate, I always thought roughly half of trinitarian churchgoers believed Jesus was a created being if you like, at some point pre the biblical beginning(creation) and they solely referred to Christ as the Son of God. This is based on what I have experienced, in many protestant denominations

I have heard and read a great many denominational statements on the person of Christ (God the Son) and have only found a small handful of people that do not admit that God the Son is infinite - from eternity past... with beginning as Hebrews 7 states.
 
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Karola

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I have heard and read a great many denominational statements on the person of Christ (God the Son) and have only found a small handful of people that do not admit that God the Son is infinite - from eternity past... with beginning as Hebrews 7 states.
Oh I have met seventh day Adventists who believe only the Father is the one true God, you want to broaden your horizons
 
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BobRyan

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Without wishing to sidetrack the debate, I always thought roughly half of trinitarian churchgoers believed Jesus was a created being if you like, at some point pre the biblical beginning(creation) and they solely referred to Christ as the Son of God. This is based on what I have experienced, in many protestant denominations

I have heard and read a great many denominational statements on the person of Christ (God the Son) and have only found a small handful of people that do not admit that God the Son is infinite - from eternity past... with beginning as Hebrews 7 states.

Oh I have met seventh day Adventists who believe only the Father is the one true God,

A handful in a denomination of over 20 million.. I have found folks in different groups that think the world is flat as well. Is that supposed to prove that all the world or all Christians or the SDA denomination teaches such things?

Let's be serious in this discussion please.
 
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Karola

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I have heard and read a great many denominational statements on the person of Christ (God the Son) and have only found a small handful of people that do not admit that God the Son is infinite - from eternity past... with beginning as Hebrews 7 states.



A handful in a denomination of over 20 million.. I have found folks in different groups that think the world is flat as well. Is that supposed to prove that all the world or all Christians or the SDA denomination teaches such things?

Let's be serious in this discussion please.
Im afraid it is not possible to have a serious discussion with you based on the bible. As soon as you are presented with scripture you do not understand, or goes against your denominational beliefs you do sommersaults with it, in order to get it to state what you want it to state.
If you think only a handful of sda members believes the Father is the one true God you are very deceived. The average pew sitter does not reflect the average view on the internet
 
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bekkilyn

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I have a problem with it because it is what the "believe whatever you feel and don't worry so much about what the Bible says" group chooses.

I have a problem with it because it is what the "I don't like sola-scriptura testing of the Bible to see if a given doctrine is true or false" group chooses to do.

I have a problem with it - because it is foundational to the dark ages persecution of the saints.

I know this comes as a bit of a surprise to you -- but for many others on this board it is merely stating "the obvious"



The first part of you post brings up a detail, a topic, that deserves specific focus - for those who imagine that "pick and choose" is anything remotely approved of under the standard practice of exegesis and truthful accurate rendering of the text and testing of doctrine.



I suppose I could "quote the entire Bible every time I wanted to demonstrate a point" but that would wash out the entire benefit. As both agree.

It is far better to be succinct - and zero in with laser focus on "the fact" and what the Bible says about it.

In response - someone will likely point to some other verse saying that they think that verse modifies or deletes some other verse. I love adding clarity for them on that suggestion when the opportunity arises.



In fact it does not mean "quote the entire Bible any time you want to make a point".

But it does mean that what scripture says on a given topic is to have bearing on the subject. I point to "details" that make it impossible to be at war with God's Sabbath Commandment for the objective unbiased Bible student.

Those "details" are so irrefutable that the "need" to be ignored by those who choose to be at war with God's Commandments for their argument to fly. Thus my preference is "scripture" and not "feelings" as the test of doctrine.

Romans 10 "Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

in Christ,

Bob

However, you do need to take the whole of scripture into account when interpreting the parts of it, and so ignoring entire covenants and/or mixing and matching them through use of carefully cherry-picked verses demonstrate that the central message of the gospel has flown over your head to be replaced by *ritual* sabbath-keeping and not of the true sabbath that the rituals all pointed to.

The entire compilation of scripture as we know it has a central message, and if your interpretation conflicts with that message, then something is very awry with it.
 
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BobRyan

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However, you do need to take the whole of scripture into account when interpreting the parts of it,

Indeed - exegesis requires that we take the intent of the author, the context of his statement - the obvious meaning to his primary audience, what he has said on the same subject in other parts of the Bible and also what other Bible writers say on the same subject.

Never using one scripture to "delete" another.



and so ignoring entire section of the Bible because they do not agree with "feelings" is not even remotely "exegesis". Rather it is "eisegesis".

In the case of the Bible Sabbath it is very clear - beyond all question,

1. It was made for mankind Mark 2:27
2. It is one of the TEN commandments - Ex 20:8-11 and is the seventh day
3. It is still in force for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth for all mankind Is 66:23
4. Gentiles are specifically singled out even in the OT for Sabbath keeping - Isaiah 56:6-8

The entire compilation of scripture as we know it has a central message, and if your interpretation conflicts with that message, then something is very awry with it.[/QUOTE]
 
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BobRyan

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Without wishing to sidetrack the debate, I always thought roughly half of trinitarian churchgoers believed Jesus was a created being if you like, at some point pre the biblical beginning(creation) and they solely referred to Christ as the Son of God. This is based on what I have experienced, in many protestant denominations

I have heard and read a great many denominational statements on the person of Christ (God the Son) and have only found a small handful of people that do not admit that God the Son is infinite - from eternity past... with beginning as Hebrews 7 states.

About Jesus Christ-- Box

Jesus is the creator - John 1:1-5
 
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Karola

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I have heard and read a great many denominational statements on the person of Christ (God the Son) and have only found a small handful of people that do not admit that God the Son is infinite - from eternity past... with beginning as Hebrews 7 states.



Jesus is the creator - John 1:1-5
Let me enlighten you, roughly half(conservative figure) of people who attend trinitarian churches solely term Christ the Son of God. And at least 95% of people in those churches will accept anyone as a Christian if they only term Christ the son of God. The internet is very different of course, head theology is what matters most here
 
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