2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

LightLoveHope · Oct 17, 2018

Unfortunately talking about back slidden believers, judgement under the law and what is redemption, and how it applies to those who have accepted it, is about the very things Paul is talking about.

And the energy spent looking at this issue as if it is the most important in our walk with the Lord, is distorting the priorities of Gods people to walk in love and let His light shine. Somehow believers are then pictured as trampling on Christ by following Him, which is just falling into the enemies hands and doing his work for him. We are called to bring the world to repentance and to follow love.

But if you cannot accept this perspective, then it underlines for me the point I am making. God bless you.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 17, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Unfortunately talking about back slidden believers, judgement under the law and what is redemption, and how it applies to those who have accepted it, is about the very things Paul is talking about.

I wasn't discussing any of this.

And the energy spent looking at this issue as if it is the most important in our walk with the Lord, is distorting the priorities of Gods people to walk in love and let His light shine.

Why would you assume this is my "most important issue"? All I did initially was correct an error on your part.

Somehow believers are then pictured as trampling on Christ by following Him, which is just falling into the enemies hands and doing his work for him.

Now, you know better than that. I never created any such picture. In fact, what I did was question how someone could follow Christ when they don't believe a very clear statement about eternal security. And you haven't ever responded to that question.

We are called to bring the world to repentance and to follow love.

And believe everything Jesus says.

But if you cannot accept this perspective, then it underlines for me the point I am making. God bless you.

What I cannot accept is a believer who makes an erroneous claim regarding Scripture, and then, after being shown an extremely clear verse to the contrary, still doesn't believe what the Bible says.

LightLoveHope · Oct 18, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I wasn't discussing any of this.

Why would you assume this is my "most important issue"? All I did initially was correct an error on your part.

Now, you know better than that. I never created any such picture. In fact, what I did was question how someone could follow Christ when they don't believe a very clear statement about eternal security. And you haven't ever responded to that question.

And believe everything Jesus says.

What I cannot accept is a believer who makes an erroneous claim regarding Scripture, and then, after being shown an extremely clear verse to the contrary, still doesn't believe what the Bible says.

Hi Free,

We have to be honest here. You cannot accept it does not matter ones position on when you come to faith, how kept are you.

But this is my point, knowing you are kept into eternity is it. We are kept. So something else is going on driven by experiences outside the subject matter. And the key phrase is excuses not to implement Jesus's words, ie listen to Him and obey. Why this becomes absurd, literally absurd, is Jesus is God, our Lord, our friend, the one who came to save us from judgement, sin and death.

So if one believes He is God, it is His words and His intent we should listen to above anything else.

So though we seem to agree the statements I have made here are true, you still feel I need correction. Why is this? What thing will it bring into my life or my reading of scripture or my walk with Jesus?

I get the feeling you cannot accept we should be lights in the world, a testimony of love and victory, of gaining the higher ground of victory in Him, faithfully walking the straight path. But this road takes sacrifice and accepting pain and loss, which to put it bluntly most give up on. And there we have it, people want to give up but know they are kept.

This is why we need fellowship, encouragement, to help carry one anothers burdens except, it takes time to reach out and literally trust our fellow believers. I mean caring and actually putting faith and love into action is just too difficult? But the answer is no, it is not too difficult it just takes real love.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 18, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Hi Free,

We have to be honest here. You cannot accept it does not matter ones position on when you come to faith, how kept are you.

This is just a very stunning admission. Obviously you have no idea how destructive the false teaching about one's lack of security is.

But this is my point, knowing you are kept into eternity is it. We are kept.

The only reason I initially responded to one of your posts was because of what you said about losing salvation. i.e.; we are not "kept" if we do certain things.

So something else is going on driven by experiences outside the subject matter.

As you opened your post, let's be honest here. There is nothing else going on.

And the key phrase is excuses not to implement Jesus's words, ie listen to Him and obey.

OK, let's be honest here and show me what "excuses" you think I have been giving.

Why this becomes absurd, literally absurd, is Jesus is God, our Lord, our friend, the one who came to save us from judgement, sin and death.

What continues to be absurd is a believer who claims we are kept has made statements contrary to that idea.

So if one believes He is God, it is His words and His intent we should listen to above anything else.

And that has been my point all along.

So though we seem to agree the statements I have made here are true, you still feel I need correction.

Did you not read what I posted?

Why is this? What thing will it bring into my life or my reading of scripture or my walk with Jesus?

So you really don't understand the point of correction??

I get the feeling you cannot accept we should be lights in the world, a testimony of love and victory, of gaining the higher ground of victory in Him, faithfully walking the straight path.

Erroneous viewpoints will definitely NOT lead to the goals you list here. Ergo, correction.

But this road takes sacrifice and accepting pain and loss, which to put it bluntly most give up on. And there we have it, people want to give up but know they are kept.

No, many people think they are not kept and continually strive to "make sure" they don't lose out in the end. And this demonstrates UNBELIEF in what Jesus said.

How is that helpful for any believer?

This is why we need fellowship, encouragement, to help carry one anothers burdens except, it takes time to reach out and literally trust our fellow believers.

You forgot something: knowledge of Scripture. It seems you are allergic to knowledge.

LightLoveHope · Oct 18, 2018

A stunning admission? That I am secure in Christ and I know He loves me through the cross?

I feel like you are trying to provoke a response where there is nothing to provoke.

You sound like a friend of mine, who got so insecure about friendship, he got one of his friends to draw up a friendship contract. It did not end well. Love is something from the
heart, and an expression of commitment. What binds us is understanding ourselves and our intentions. Promises and statements mean nothing if ones heart has died.
And if a covenant comes with conditions of attitude and openness, then failing this means the covenant has failed.

What the weaker party wants from a covenant is to have no binding conditions on them and everything being delivered by the other side. Now if everything is this one sided, what it the objective of the covenant other than just a free gift thrown into a crowd.

And if it is a free gift randomly thrown out, how can those who have not received the free gift be judged for not receiving it. Sounds like predestination or fate, or even just arbitary rolling the dice. Not like the God of judgement of the bible.

Apart from this issue, I do wonder at your motivation, unless you believe I am not saved at all. But then that would be judging Gods people, a sin, so surely you cannot mean this. So I fail to understand who you actually are and what you stand for.

But thankfully I am not called to understand those who provoke things that just cause quandries and are not part of the gospel or its ministry. God bless you.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 18, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
A stunning admission? That I am secure in Christ and I know He loves me through the cross?

Let's go back to the beginning of our discussion.

On page 21, you stated, in post #409:
"So a brother has spiritually died, or is just dead and continually sins. What are we told to do."

In the Bible, the use of "brother" by believers is a reference to other believers. So I took your comment above to mean that a saved person (brother) can "spiritually die", which would mean they end up in the lake of fire.

So I take all this to infer that a saved person can perish.

So, maybe you should define your terms.

I feel like you are trying to provoke a response where there is nothing to provoke.

If you clear up what you meant by the phrase from post #409, there may be no need for further discussion.

And if it is a free gift randomly thrown out, how can those who have not received the free gift be judged for not receiving it. Sounds like predestination or fate, or even just arbitary rolling the dice. Not like the God of judgement of the bible.

Are you expressing your view that "a free gift can randomly be thrown out", or what?

Apart from this issue, I do wonder at your motivation, unless you believe I am not saved at all. But then that would be judging Gods people, a sin, so surely you cannot mean this. So I fail to understand who you actually are and what you stand for.

I've just provided 2 examples from your posts that suggest or insinuate that salvation can be lost. So, please, define your terms.

LightLoveHope · Oct 20, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Let's go back to the beginning of our discussion.

On page 21, you stated, in post #409:
"So a brother has spiritually died, or is just dead and continually sins. What are we told to do."

In the Bible, the use of "brother" by believers is a reference to other believers. So I took your comment above to mean that a saved person (brother) can "spiritually die", which would mean they end up in the lake of fire.

So I take all this to infer that a saved person can perish.

So, maybe you should define your terms.

If you clear up what you meant by the phrase from post #409, there may be no need for further discussion.

Are you expressing your view that "a free gift can randomly be thrown out", or what?

I've just provided 2 examples from your posts that suggest or insinuate that salvation can be lost. So, please, define your terms.

There is a simple problem here if one analyses it.
1. We are called to listen, follow and believe in Jesus
2. Those who do this are promised eternal life and not to perish
3. We do not know who truly qualifies or fails, just we are called.

So many observe people will come and go and some stay.
I was talking to a brother yesterday and we talked about change.
We are so fragile, if God forces His way into our lives we die and are destroyed.
To come to the Lord starts with acceptance of change, of repentance, of humbling and beginning anew. The walk that begins is about change, learning and growth.

So a simple rule is, if one is frozen, locked down, hurting and shutting out love, that is not Jesus openly working in ones heart and the life of the Holy Spirit working in one.

On this basis, it is our openness and walking in love that is our eternal life.
To shut this down is to die, to become unable to respond and to defend the pain within and stop believing we can be healed, made alive, and love gets shut out.

I have found believers who shut Jesus out, claim their hearts are desperately wicked and can never be cleansed or purified. They seem to hate the language of love, openness and honesty from the heart. And they hold desperately to assurance of salvation through the promises, under the illusion God will radically change them in some unknown way at the last trumpet.

Now this suggests our relationship with Jesus is radically different in heaven than it is here now. The relationship Moses and Elijah had with God suggests to me this is a mistake, and what is acceptable to God is achievable today, which is why Jesus was friends with His disciples. So if you cannot resolve the issues today, or walk towards resolution what hope is there really? If the Holy Spirit dwells in His people, and the cross made this possible, then the walk is not something unusual, but the inheritence of everyone in the Kingdom.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 20, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
There is a simple problem here if one analyses it.
1. We are called to listen, follow and believe in Jesus
2. Those who do this are promised eternal life and not to perish

No. Those who believe in Christ are given eternal life and shall never perish.

Please read John 10:27,28 correctly. There is nothing in or about v.27 that forms a condition for receiving eternal life.

If you want verses that actually DO, and very clearly, state WHO receives eternal life, here are some of them:

Salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, 24 verses that speak of believing in Christ for salvation/eternal life. How many mentions "listening and following" for eternal life? None.

In fact, it is to believers that the command to listen and follow are made.

But NONE to become saved.

3. We do not know who truly qualifies or fails, just we are called.

Irrelevant to the point of eternal security.

So many observe people will come and go and some stay.
I was talking to a brother yesterday and we talked about change.
We are so fragile, if God forces His way into our lives we die and are destroyed.

Please explain what is meant by "if God forces His way into our lives we die anda re destroyed". btw, He doesn't, so your "iffy" statement is totally irrelevant anyway.

To come to the Lord starts with acceptance of change, of repentance, of humbling and beginning anew.

No, it's about trusting in His work that saves us.

The walk that begins is about change, learning and growth.

Of course.

So a simple rule is, if one is frozen, locked down, hurting and shutting out love, that is not Jesus openly working in ones heart and the life of the Holy Spirit working in one.

On this basis, it is our openness and walking in love that is our eternal life.

This doesn't make sense. Our eternal life is a gift from Jesus for believing in Him.

To shut this down is to die

Where do you get this notion? What verse/passage teaches this?

I have found believers who shut Jesus out, claim their hearts are desperately wicked and can never be cleansed or purified. They seem to hate the language of love, openness and honesty from the heart. And they hold desperately to assurance of salvation through the promises, under the illusion God will radically change them in some unknown way at the last trumpet.

Such believers are obviously very screwed up. They either never paid any attention in church, or they flatly rejected truth, or their pastors screwed them up.

LightLoveHope · Oct 20, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No. Those who believe in Christ are given eternal life and shall never perish.

Please read John 10:27,28 correctly. There is nothing in or about v.27 that forms a condition for receiving eternal life.

If you want verses that actually DO, and very clearly, state WHO receives eternal life, here are some of them:

Salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, 24 verses that speak of believing in Christ for salvation/eternal life. How many mentions "listening and following" for eternal life? None.

In fact, it is to believers that the command to listen and follow are made.

But NONE to become saved.

Irrelevant to the point of eternal security.

Please explain what is meant by "if God forces His way into our lives we die anda re destroyed". btw, He doesn't, so your "iffy" statement is totally irrelevant anyway.

No, it's about trusting in His work that saves us.

Of course.

This doesn't make sense. Our eternal life is a gift from Jesus for believing in Him.

Where do you get this notion? What verse/passage teaches this?

Such believers are obviously very screwed up. They either never paid any attention in church, or they flatly rejected truth, or their pastors screwed them up.

You remind me of preachers who preach a formula.
Except your formula is believe. I believe that as well.
So we agree. Believe in Jesus and you will gain eternal life.
It is like saying believe in driving a car and you can drive from one side of the country to the other. By believing you will arrive where you want to go.

Free gift. Where does Jesus say or anyone this is a free gift?

Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
1 Peter 2:16-17

Jesus says we have to die to gain life eternally.
So we have to die, which is not a free gift it is conditional.

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
John 12:25-26

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:6-8

We died with Christ. By how?

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.
Col 3:5-7

We put these things to death. This is a choice, an act of the will not something that freely happens to us.

But you seem to want to make this separate from Jesus and eternal life.

LightLoveHope · Oct 20, 2018

I have noticed this habit.
People pick verses that are addressing confidence in Jesus and His commitment to His people and they say, it does not say here you have to do anything to receive this promise.

The only problem is there are verses which say follow me and only those who follow me will receive me and my blessing.

You only need one verse that says this.

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:37-38

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
Matthew 16:24-26

If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:15

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.
John 14:21

If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:23

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:24

Believing in Jesus is loving Him. Loving Him is obeying His commands. Obeying His commands is building your house upon a rock.

So how can anyone claim to know Jesus and not follow His words and obey His commands.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 20, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
You remind me of preachers who preach a formula.
Except your formula is believe.

That's not "my formula". It's what the Bible says.

I believe that as well.
So we agree. Believe in Jesus and you will gain eternal life.
It is like saying believe in driving a car and you can drive from one side of the country to the other.

No, it's not like saying that. Not even close.

Free gift. Where does Jesus say or anyone this is a free gift?

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
1 Peter 2:16-17

Jesus says we have to die to gain life eternally.

Please cite or quote any verse that says this. 1 Pet 2:16,17 certainly doesn't say that.

So we have to die, which is not a free gift it is conditional.

Again, go ahead and share any verse that says so.

The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
John 12:25-26

So, unless one hates his life, he won't keep eternal life, huh?

Well, once again, you don't believe what Jesus said.

In john 5:24 and 6:47, He said that whoever believes HAS eternal life. Nothing about dying, so your understanding of Jn 12:25,26 is flawed.

Then, in Jn 10:28 He said "I give them (believers) eternal life and they shall never perish".

You know what He NEVER said? "I give them eternal life, and IF they hate their life, they shall never perish".

Nor did He EVER say, "I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS they hate their life, they shall never perish".

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:6-8

Do you not understand that our "death" here is figurative?

We died with Christ. By how?

The death here is figurative. By our faith in Christ, we are identified with His death for us.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.
Col 3:5-7

The command to put to death is a command to quit sinning by functioning from the new, born again, regenerated nature, by means of the Holy Spirit.

We put these things to death. This is a choice, an act of the will not something that freely happens to us.

And please explain how we do this. Specifically and plainly. Please don't use figures of speech or metaphors. Just plain language.

But you seem to want to make this separate from Jesus and eternal life.

What makes you think that?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 20, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I have noticed this habit.
People pick verses that are addressing confidence in Jesus and His commitment to His people and they say, it does not say here you have to do anything to receive this promise.

The only problem is there are verses which say follow me and only those who follow me will receive me and my blessing.

You only need one verse that says this.

Why must you insist on trying to pit Scripture against Scripture?

In John 10:28, Jesus PUT TO DEATH any concept of losing salvation, or any believer ever perishing.

But it seems you don't grasp what that means.

It means all the verses you think lead to a believer who does perish have been MISUNDERSTOOD.

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:37-38

OK, so another "condition" that Jesus must have just forgotten to add to John 10:28, right? lol

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
Matthew 16:24-26

{insert into John 10:28 because Jesus simply forgot to mention it}

If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:15

There is nothing here about how to receive eternal life, nor any warnings about how to lose it.

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.
John 14:21

If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
John 14:23

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:24

All of these verses are about loving Christ. Which ALL believers are commanded to do.

Believing in Jesus is loving Him.

And this is your error. Loving Him is obedience. Believing is trusting. They are different, even though or in spite of the fact that you don't understand it.

Loving Him is obeying His commands. Obeying His commands is building your house upon a rock.

And is not believing in Him for salvation. Only those who have already believed in Him for salvation CAN love Him.

So how can anyone claim to know Jesus and not follow His words and obey His commands.

I'll ask a different question:

How can anyone claim to know Jesus and not believe that no believer can ever perish?

LightLoveHope · Oct 20, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Why must you insist on trying to pit Scripture against Scripture?

In John 10:28, Jesus PUT TO DEATH any concept of losing salvation, or any believer ever perishing.

But it seems you don't grasp what that means.

It means all the verses you think lead to a believer who does perish have been MISUNDERSTOOD.

OK, so another "condition" that Jesus must have just forgotten to add to John 10:28, right? lol

{insert into John 10:28 because Jesus simply forgot to mention it}

There is nothing here about how to receive eternal life, nor any warnings about how to lose it.

All of these verses are about loving Christ. Which ALL believers are commanded to do.

And this is your error. Loving Him is obedience. Believing is trusting. They are different, even though or in spite of the fact that you don't understand it.

And is not believing in Him for salvation. Only those who have already believed in Him for salvation CAN love Him.

I'll ask a different question:

How can anyone claim to know Jesus and not believe that no believer can ever perish?

How can anyone claim to know Jesus and not believe that no believer can ever perish?

This is an interesting question. I hope you realise how this idea is very similar to a child wondering if their parents will ever reject them. The child in their heart knows they are loved, and carries on secure in this knowledge in their heart. This is where I live.

Now if someone appears to be a believer, and then walks away and denies the very principles and direction of the Kingdom. were they ever truly a believer?
I do not know. The Lord knows, but maybe only the end truly defines who is or who is not.

I have a friend in Christ, who was sincerely walking with Jesus. A conflict with their son blew up, and they got so annoyed and upset they said they could not forgive their son, and would go to hell rather than forgive them. 7 months later, things started to settle down, they broke and came back humbly before the Lord and walked in forgiveness.

The subtle thing is we deceive ourselves very easily, and often compromise over our principles, until hard times come and we find we are situational believers and have not really realised in Christ we have died, and have risen again in His love.

I know this betrayal, this cover up, the faking of commitment, and just sitting on the fence. But let us think, and I mean think what we are saying Jesus will do. He will give us new bodies, welcome us into His home, His Kingdom, His eternity, because we have recognised Him, put our faith in Him and put into action His will.

Now a fool will ask the advice of a doctor, who prescibes medicine for their illness and says they will live even though they refuse to take the medicine. The reason one trusts and believes in the doctor is because you will do what they tell you to do to survive.

Those who are in the Kingdom serve their King. We are called to do good works, to be lights, to testify to the work He has done in our lives. But that will be hard for those who want desperately to believe or to experience this, yet just outwardly belong and still await for some spiritual truth within. I have relatives who are now dead, who literally denied they were sinners in need of repentance, but held to being good people, pretending to be righteous, and that was what it meant to have faith. When I shared about conversions of some desperate lost people, into redeemed blessed saints they were disgusted.

"Free" from your responses, it strikes me you do not believe the heart needs to be cleansed when walking in the Lord. If you cannot go this far, then I cannot really share any more, because it becomes pointless. Desiring righteousness is our hearts in the Lord, to know how to love and to find His blessing, is our praise of Him.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 20, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
How can anyone claim to know Jesus and not believe that no believer can ever perish?

This is an interesting question.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I hope you realise how this idea is very similar to a child wondering if their parents will ever reject them.

Many kids do. Your point?

The child in their heart knows they are loved, and carries on secure in this knowledge in their heart. This is where I live.

Don't you recall why I started a discussion with you?

Now if someone appears to be a believer, and then walks away and denies the very principles and direction of the Kingdom. were they ever truly a believer?

Truth is; some are and some aren't. Simple as that. The ones that aren't, do not have any relevance to the topic of eternal security.

I do not know.

Which is exactly why I posed the question above. Since Jesus made eternal security very clear, the fact of your admission here shows that you do NOT believe what He said, because what He said is so clear.

The Lord knows, but maybe only the end truly defines who is or who is not.

There is zero security in that bit of stuff.

I have a friend in Christ, who was sincerely walking with Jesus. A conflict with their son blew up, and they got so annoyed and upset they said they could not forgive their son, and would go to hell rather than forgive them. 7 months later, things started to settle down, they broke and came back humbly before the Lord and walked in forgiveness.

For any believer to make such a claim, as to choose hell rather than forgive shows just how little of the Bible they know.

The subtle thing is we deceive ourselves very easily, and often compromise over our principles, until hard times come and we find we are situational believers and have not really realised in Christ we have died, and have risen again in His love.

Do you not realize that every believer is a situational believer? We can only receive salvation ONCE, through faith. That is saving faith. However, life provides quite enough challenges, temptations and testing that puts our faith (or lack thereof) on display. This is "lifestyle faith" and is the kind of faith that the writer of Hebrews spoke of in Heb 3 and 4.

I know this betrayal, this cover up, the faking of commitment, and just sitting on the fence.

Please explain what you mean by fence sitting. A person either HAS believed in Christ for salvation, or they NEVER believed in Him for salvation. It's either one side or the other side of the fence. There is no room ON the fence.

So please explain.

Now a fool will ask the advice of a doctor, who prescibes medicine for their illness and says they will live even though they refuse to take the medicine. The reason one trusts and believes in the doctor is because you will do what they tell you to do to survive.

How does not taking medicine provide any kind of example or comparison with saving faith?

Those who are in the Kingdom serve their King. We are called to do good works, to be lights, to testify to the work He has done in our lives.

Called, yes. And don't forget, commanded to do so.

That is why we have Matt 22:14 - many are called, but few are chosen.

But that will be hard for those who want desperately to believe or to experience this, yet just outwardly belong and still await for some spiritual truth within.

I have no idea what you are referring to here. Kinda sounds like psycho-babble.

I have relatives who are now dead, who literally denied they were sinners in need of repentance, but held to being good people, pretending to be righteous, and that was what it meant to have faith.

Well, just more ignorance. That is not what having faith means.

When I shared about conversions of some desperate lost people, into redeemed blessed saints they were disgusted.

Seems they were trusting in themselves to save themselves. No different than the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

"Free" from your responses, it strikes me you do not believe the heart needs to be cleansed when walking in the Lord.

I've never given any such notion. If believers don't confess their sins, and I mean every one they can think of, and the sooner, the better, per 1 John 1:9, they are NOT in fellowship with the Lord at all, but living from their sinful nature.

The ONLY WAY to be cleansed of the sins from our walking in the world is confession.

So, see? You error again and again about what I believe.

BCsenior · Oct 21, 2018

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned
who have not believed the truth but have delighted
in wickedness.

Of course, this is speaking of the non-believers.
It is not considering born-again believers at all.
So, how can it apply to any possible eternal security
of believers?

IMO, during the past year, you have regressed
in your spiritual understanding, or should I say,
in your openness to the Truth.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 21, 2018

BCsenior said:
2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Of course, this is speaking of the non-believers.
It is not considering the believers at all.
So, how can it apply to eternal security of believers?

The answer is simple and clear. The verse is about those who never believed, who will be condemned.

Is there any verse that says a "former believer" will be condemned? No.

IMO, you have regressed in your spiritual understanding, or should I say, in your openness to the Truth.

How am I not pen to truth. In fact, John 3:18 has the same message;

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Arminians claim that any believer who ceases to believe will be condemned, and use verses that say those who believe will be saved.

But both 2 Thess 2:12 and John 3:18 say those who never believed will be condemned.

If any believer who ceases to believe will be condemned, then John 10:28 cannot be true, nor 2 Thess 2:12 and John 3:18.

BCsenior · Oct 21, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Is there any verse that says a "former believer" will be condemned? No.

I'll just give a favorite verse for others who are
reading this ...
"But we are not of those who draw back to perdition ..." (Hebrews 10:39)

I'll relent and give 2 more in Rev 13 and Rev 14,
which warn EVERYONE that ANYONE who takes the
mark of the beast will be thrown into the lake of fire.

LightLoveHope · Oct 21, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I've never given any such notion. If believers don't confess their sins, and I mean every one they can think of, and the sooner, the better, per 1 John 1:9, they are NOT in fellowship with the Lord at all, but living from their sinful nature.

The ONLY WAY to be cleansed of the sins from our walking in the world is confession.

So, see? You error again and again about what I believe.

Hi Free,

God bless you. I hope you have the fellowship of His grace.
My approach is always just to share my perspective, and see if I can encourage others to follow and walk with Jesus.

There are many perspectives and emphasises believers have, and when we meet the Lord face to face they will become clear. So to me it does not matter how well I know you or not. Jesus teaches us to be a light but not to get wrapped up in pointless disputes.

BCsenior · Oct 21, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Jesus teaches us to be a light but not to get wrapped up in pointless disputes.

IMO, Jesus taught Paul during those 14 years in the desert places to mix in his dire warnings (e.g. no OSAS) with copious edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc. even though they certainly would cause disputes, divisions, etc. -- pointless or otherwise.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 21, 2018

My question:
"Is there any verse that says a "former believer" will be condemned? No."

BCsenior said:
I'll just give a favorite verse for others who are
reading this ...
"But we are not of those who draw back to perdition ..." (Hebrews 10:39)

OK, this translation is KJV.

NASB: But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
ESV: But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
Berean Study Bible: But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

Keep in mind that in the 1st Century, the Greeks used the word "soul" for the person, and to "preserve" or "save" a soul meant to save or preserve the person.

iow, keep them from death (physical). In the military, during mass casualty exercises, there is a number they keep track of; it's referred to as the "SOB". Not the way you think of those initials. It means "souls on board". Again, people on board.

So Heb 10:39 doesn't speak of believers who cease to believe and are eternally lost, as it seems you assume, but of believers who have "shrunk back" and died physically. Those who "have faith and preserve their souls" have avoided God's discipline called the "sin unto death" in 1 John 5:16. I know you won't want to accept this, and even see this as twisting the "clear meaning" of Scripture, but if indeed this verse does speak of "former believers" ending up eternally lost, then John 10:28 CANNOT BE TRUE, or Jesus would have had to include the condition of continuing to believe in order to never perish.

So it is clear that you still do not believe the words of Jesus in John 10:28, and would rather find other less clear verses to believe in contradiction to the absolute clear statement of Jesus in John 10:28.

I'll relent and give 2 more in Rev 13 and Rev 14,
which warn EVERYONE that ANYONE who takes the
mark of the beast will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Are you going to assume that there will be believers who will take the mark of the beast? And if so, where do you get that idea, other than from your own imagination?

It is just as easy to assume that by the time the mark of the beast is given, all believers who are in rebellion or have ceased to believe have been taken home to be with the Lord via the "sin unto death".

So again, your verses don't support your assumptions/opinions.

And Jesus' statement about recipients of eternal life stand unrefuted.

By the simple fact of receiving the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

That is EXACTLY what Jesus was meaning. There can be no other way to understand His words.

Between the receiving of eternal life and never perishing, Jesus inserted NO CONDITIONS to be met.

It always amazes me to see believers keep trying to force conditions into Jesus' statement where there isn't any conditions.

The simple question is: why don't you understand this?

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