WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

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Saint Steven

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Not being under the law means not being under the condemnation of it. For our righteousness is faith in Christ.
There is nothing wrong with God desiring believers not to take his name in vain, covet, steal, bear false witness, murder etc. Those thongs are holy, just and good. God did not abolish what is holy, just and good, He placed them in the minds and hearts of believers. What he did abolish was righteousness of observing the law, therefore the Christian is not under the law. This, for the truly born again believer cannot be viewed as a licence to sin, for, it is in their hearts not to want to covet, steal, lie, murder, commit adultery etc. The law in their hearts is followed by love, which fulfils the law, or we can say the fruits of the Spirit(Gal5:23) for against that fruit there is no law. I can only repeat, it is not hankering after the law, if you in your heart do not want to lie, steal, covet commit adultery etc
I see layers of law. Whereas you seem to be seeing it as one thing.

- God's eternal law (the law of human conscience) from the beginning.
- The law (given by God to the Israelites through Moses) the 613 laws. (law of Moses)
- The Ten Commandments (a subset of the 613) and on stone tablets.
- Christ's law (the new covenant of grace -- added to God's eternal law)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To me, the inclusion of the Sabbath commandment proves that the TCs as a complete set of ten are not for us. The Sabbath is a sign between God and the Israelites alone.

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
 
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Karola

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I see layers of law. Whereas you seem to be seeing it as one thing.

- God's eternal law (the law of human conscience) from the beginning.
- The law (given by God to the Israelites through Moses) the 613 laws. (law of Moses)
- The Ten Commandments (a subset of the 613) and on stone tablets.
- Christ's law (the new covenant of grace -- added to God's eternal law)
A few years ago, on another website I stated: The law was abolished'' A Pentecostal(who I differed in views with quite a bit) told me that was a heretical statement(in his view) the law had not been abolished, but the penalty for transgression had been. My instinct would have been to ignore what he wrote, or ague about it, for Ia have often suffered from thinking I have it mostly worked out(I wonder if I am alone suffering from that) Anyway, I went away and thought about it, and came to see he was right. When we think of the ''Ten Commandments'' we view them in the light of Old Testement law, or how we all understand law to mean. It is not like that under the new covenant. The law in our minds and hearts simply means in our minds we know how God wants us to live and in our hearts we want to live that way. There is nothing legalistic or hankering after the old covenant in that. Should believers not desire to live as God wants them to live in their hearts?
 
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slobake

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WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

Firstly I believe God has his people in EVERY CHURCH as long as they are living up to all the KNOWLEDGE God has revealed to them through his WORD.

JOHN 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

However God is calling his people out from following man made traditions to worship God in Spirit and in truth.

JOHN 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

WHO IS GOD'S CHURCH?

IS GOD'S CHURCH A BUILDING or a CHURCH ORGANISATION?

Before we look at who God's WORD says is God's true Church let's start off by looking at the GREEK meaning of the word Church which is ἐκκλησία which means a calling out or meeting.

This links in very nicely with

MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

A Church therefore is the people the BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. They are the called out and Jesus is in the midst of them.

WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

1 JOHN 2:3-4
3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep <ALL> his commandments. 4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

REVELATION 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

REVELATION 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

REVELATION 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Notice God's people keep ALL of God's Commandments through FAITH in Christ?

NOTE: God's saints keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS of God. It is these people that are a remnant that the devil is making war with. They are called God's saints and these are the ones that have right to the tree of life.

How many Church's do you see keeping all of God's Commandments?

What are your thoughts?

I don't see any churches keeping all of God's commandments, especially if I am a member of the church. Still, God uses me DESPITE my best efforts.
I don't know who God's true church is but I want to be ready when He comes. I will leave that judgement up to Him and worship Him.
There are folks much smarter than me here so I will leave the debates up to them.
 
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Karola

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There are folks much smarter than me here so I will leave the debates up to them.
Smarter, in relation to higher IQs can be a positive drawback, for they are more susceptible to relying on their brilliant academic minds to learn spiritual truth
 
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Saint Steven

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A few years ago, on another website I stated: The law was abolished'' A Pentecostal(who I differed in views with quite a bit) told me that was a heretical statement(in his view) the law had not been abolished, but the penalty for transgression had been. My instinct would have been to ignore what he wrote, or ague about it, for Ia have often suffered from thinking I have it mostly worked out(I wonder if I am alone suffering from that) Anyway, I went away and thought about it, and came to see he was right. When we think of the ''Ten Commandments'' we view them in the light of Old Testement law, or how we all understand law to mean. It is not like that under the new covenant. The law in our minds and hearts simply means in our minds we know how God wants us to live and in our hearts we want to live that way. There is nothing legalistic or hankering after the old covenant in that. Should believers not desire to live as God wants them to live in their hearts?
That's good.
I am often accused of seeking a license to sin when I point out that we are not under the law. But that is not what I mean to say. The Apostle Paul was accused of the same thing, apparently, which he answered in Romans 6:15.

With sin comes a guilty conscience. I've never heard of anyone who was convicted of not keeping a seventh day Sabbath by their conscience. (unassisted) Only when they believed/received the law being put on them by a religious group. And probably part of a general sin guiltiness.
 
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JLB777

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They are the eternal laws, the ones written on our hearts that far surpass the bottom line commandments (the 10C) that were instituted to guard us until Jesus, who raised the level to bring us all the way to righteousness.


The 10 Commandments are God’s eternal laws of His kingdom.


“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Matthew 5:21-25



JLB
 
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JLB777

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They are the eternal laws, the ones written on our hearts that far surpass the bottom line commandments (the 10C) that were instituted to guard us until Jesus, who raised the level to bring us all the way to righteousness.


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10



JLB
 
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JLB777

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They are the eternal laws, the ones written on our hearts that far surpass the bottom line commandments (the 10C) that were instituted to guard us until Jesus, who raised the level to bring us all the way to righteousness.


He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8


JLB
 
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Karola

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That's good.
I am often accused of seeking a license to sin when I point out that we are not under the law. But that is not what I mean to say. The Apostle Paul was accused of the same thing, apparently, which he answered in Romans 6:15.

With sin comes a guilty conscience. I've never heard of anyone who was convicted of not keeping a seventh day Sabbath by their conscience. (unassisted) Only when they believed/received the law being put on them by a religious group. And probably part of a general sin guiltiness.
A well known and respected minister I once said:
''If, from what I tell you, you believe I am preaching a licence to sin, I know I have properly understood Paul's message''
He meant, as you said, that is what Paul was also accused of.
And yes, we must have a guilty conscience through sin mustn't w, for we are going against how we in our hearts know we should live and want to live.
Cheer up, when you are accused by the religious of preaching a licence to sin, you are in good company. The religious attacked Christ for ignoring the law, they arrested Stephen, one of the reasons he was ignoring the law, and Paul said: Brothers if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law) why am I still being persecuted, in that case the offence of the cross has been abolished Gal5:11
 
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Saint Steven

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He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8


JLB
Yup. Four sins right there that are outside the Ten. (the ones not in bold)
 
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JLB777

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Yup. Four sins right there that are outside the Ten. (the ones not in bold)

Abominable covers many things from homosexuality, inappropriate behavior with animals, as well as disobedient and a lack of works.


They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16


JLB
 
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Saint Steven

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Abominable covers many things from homosexuality, inappropriate behavior with animals, as well as disobedient and a lack of works.


They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1:16


JLB
Good point.
I have a recent topic (which you may have seen) that addresses this. (here's a link)
Do the Ten Commandments define sin? (nope)

I have identified a whole list of sins outside the TCs.
Many of which are "abominable". lol

- Pride
- Greed
- Envy
- Wrath, Fits of Rage
- Lust
- Gluttony
- Sloth
- Dishonesty, Deception
- Impurity, Debauchery
- Witchcraft, Sorcery
- Hatred, Indifference
- Jealousy
- Showing Favoritism, Prejudice and Discrimination
- Selfish Ambition, Self-Centeredness
- Withholding Remedy to Human or Animal Needs
- Drunkenness, Drug Abuse
- Fornication, Sodomy, inappropriate behavior with animals
- Discord, Dissensions, Factions
- Unbelief, Disbelief, Agnosticism, Atheism
- Etc.
 
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Uber Genius

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My friend, what is a strawman?

This is where you misrepresent someone's view and then attack your own misrepresentation.

We need not go further as you are affirming the same view that I anticipated in my first comment. Galatians 3 is for anyone who believes A: We are saved by works, or B: We are saved by grace and perfected by "KEEPING ALL OF GOD'S COMMANDMENTS."

There are many better scriptures for refuting A above but none better for refuting B.

When we do systematics (systematic theology), we look at all the data from scripture regarding that topic. On the role of works in the Christian's life there are four views;

  1. Works will determine rewards but not salvation
  2. Works will provide evidence that one actually has been saved
  3. Works will provide the criterion by which Christ will determine eternal destiny of his people
  4. Works will merit eternal life: At the final judgment, good works will be rewarded with eternal salvation. However, these good works will be meritorious not apart from Christ but precisely because of the union of the believer with him.
You hold to the last view.

I hold the first view.

In order to argue for a view one needs to:

  1. Collect all passages that are related to the topic
  2. Properly exegete (Not eisegete) passages
  3. Examine the four inferences above or others
  4. Determine which inference seems to explain the data most broadly and deeply.
Scholars disagree.

That said you are not collecting all the passages.
You are not exegeting in context.
Your view doesn't explain the passages from Paul that demonstrate that by works no flesh will be justified.
You quote Hebrew without recognizing the context of Hebrews is to show the reader the extreme, incomparable nature of Christ's high-priestly eternal King/Priest over that of keeping all of God's commandments.

Four Views on the Role of Works at the Final Judgment (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology)Paperback – July 13, 2013

https://www.amazon.com/Views-Works-Final-Judgment-Counterpoints/dp/0310490332

Michael P. Barber holds your view and defends it against other views. Good luck.
 
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Karola

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This is where you misrepresent someone's view and then attack your own misrepresentation.

We need not go further as you are affirming the same view that I anticipated in my first comment. Galatians 3 is for anyone who believes A: We are saved by works, or B: We are saved by grace and perfected by "KEEPING ALL OF GOD'S COMMANDMENTS."

There are many better scriptures for refuting A above but none better for refuting B.

When we do systematics (systematic theology), we look at all the data from scripture regarding that topic. On the role of works in the Christian's life there are four views;

  1. Works will determine rewards but not salvation
  2. Works will provide evidence that one actually has been saved
  3. Works will provide the criterion by which Christ will determine eternal destiny of his people
  4. Works will merit eternal life: At the final judgment, good works will be rewarded with eternal salvation. However, these good works will be meritorious not apart from Christ but precisely because of the union of the believer with him.
You hold to the last view.

I hold the first view.

In order to argue for a view one needs to:

  1. Collect all passages that are related to the topic
  2. Properly exegete (Not eisegete) passages
  3. Examine the four inferences above or others
  4. Determine which inference seems to explain the data most broadly and deeply.
Scholars disagree.

That said you are not collecting all the passages.
You are not exegeting in context.
Your view doesn't explain the passages from Paul that demonstrate that by works no flesh will be justified.
You quote Hebrew without recognizing the context of Hebrews is to show the reader the extreme, incomparable nature of Christ's high-priestly eternal King/Priest over that of keeping all of God's commandments.

Four Views on the Role of Works at the Final Judgment (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology)Paperback – July 13, 2013

https://www.amazon.com/Views-Works-Final-Judgment-Counterpoints/dp/0310490332

Michael P. Barber holds your view and defends it against other views. Good luck.
I hold to the first view also, which is nice, as no one seems to know exactly how many works you must do to be sure of inheriting eternal life
 
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Saint Steven

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Smarter, in relation to higher IQs can be a positive drawback, for they are more susceptible to relying on their brilliant academic minds to learn spiritual truth
That's so true. I really struggle with that. lol
 
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Saint Steven

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I hold to the first view also, which is nice, as no one seems to know exactly how many works you must do to be sure of inheriting eternal life
Right. There is no way to measure salvation by works. How much is enough? Grace is easily measured. You have it, or you don't. Black and white. Done deal. In the here and now. (conditions don't apply) lol
 
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Karola

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Right. There is no way to measure salvation by works. How much is enough? Grace is easily measured. You have it, or you don't. Black and white. Done deal. In the here and now. (conditions don't apply) lol
Also, works can be a false illusion. The Pharisees of Jesus day did good works all could see, but it didn't help them did it, according to Jesus
 
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He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8


JLB

Agree! Anyone believing in Jesus and loving your neighbor would never be a part of that number.
 
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klutedavid

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Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10
JLB
Consider the text you quoted (Romans 13:8-10).

The two key phrases.

'has fulfilled the law'

'the fulfillment of the law'


Does the act of loving others mean that you are fulfilling (obeying) the law? Or does the act of loving others mean that love itself is the fulfillment (completion) of the law?
 
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Saint Steven

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Also, works can be a false illusion. The Pharisees of Jesus day did good works all could see, but it didn't help them did it, according to Jesus
That's a GREAT point!
Even the works that Jesus did were being directed by the Father. He didn't wake up in the morning wondering what he could think of to do for God today. He was looking for direction.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
 
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