WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

LoveGodsWord said:

This is where Christian growth come into play and the scripture in ACTS 17 is relavant.

ACTS 17:30-31
[30], And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:
[31], Because he has appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; and of this he has given assurance unto all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

We continue to be God's Children until we reject his Word.

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The scripture is about the judgment of the world, not the judgment of the church.

LoveGodsWord said:

…
We continue to be God's Children until we reject his Word. …

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Again. There is nothing we can do to undo what God has done.

John 1:11-13
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

LoveGodsWord said:

Actually correct this is what v31 is pointing to. It is also pre-judgement ACTS 17:30 is saying when we do not know any better God overlooks until we receive a KNOWLEDGE of the truth then he expects is to live up to this knowledge REPENT, believe and follow his Word because latter we will be judged by his Word that we accept or reject *JOHN 12:47-48

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You are reading things into the passage that are not there. There is no "believe and follow his Word because latter we will be judged by his Word that we accept or reject".

You are putting the church under the same judgement as the world. The world that does not have the covering of Christ for their sins.

LoveGodsWord said:

This ties in with this scripture..

MATTHEW 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

JESUS means SAVIOUR according to this scripture definition.

WHO is JESUS?

JOHN 1:1-3; 14
1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2, The same was in the beginning with God.
3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made [the WORD].
14, And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Means JESUS who is the living WORD of GOD is our Saviour. Rejecting God's WORD is the same as rejecting JESUS. We RECEIVE him by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING his WORD.

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Again. There is nothing we can do to undo what God has done.

What are you trying to undo?

LoveGodsWord said:

Q1. How many commandment are there in the God's 10 Commandments that he spoke and wrote on two tables of stone 613, 9 or 10?

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Brother, there are 10.

Nobody here is denying this.

What I am saying is the way the Sabbath is kept, under the New Covenant has changed, from the way it was kept under the law.


I for one agree with most of what you believe, except for how the Sabbath is to be observed under the New Covenant.


Before the law was added, the Sabbath was made for man to rest.


Under the law, the Sabbath took on strict ordinances that were described by Moses, the mediator.



You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15


Example:


Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
Numbers 15:32-36



So here is the question:


Under the New Covenant, how is the Church made up of Gentiles and Jews, instructed to specifically observe the Sabbath by Jesus and His Apostles? (Please quote the scripture with your answer)


Again, I agree with you, the 10 Commandments are not abolished.


The only disagreement I have is HOW the Sabbath is to be observed today?


Please make sure your answer has instructions from Jesus Christ or His Apostles for the Church.


Here is an example of instructions for the Church about other commandments.


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10


again



I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21




JLB

LoveGodsWord said:

Not at all. You cannot BELIEVE God's WORD if you do not follow it *MATTHEW 11:28-30. If you reject God's WORD then you reject JESUS because he is the LIVING WORD of GOD.

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How is this measured?
Could you have followed better? (sure)
Did you follow well enough? (who knows?)
Can you be assured of your salvation? (not on that basis - no way to measure it)

If you are saved by God through grace, can that be measured? (yes)
Doesn't that sound like a better arrangement? (absolutely!)

Saint Steven said:

It was a question. Choose an option below.

1) Salvation is the result of obedience
2) Obedience is the result of salvation
3) Other, please explain. (briefly)

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And this is what so many struggle with. Obedience, is definitely the result of salvation, it does not bring salvation.
Paul received his message from Christ himself, no one taught him it. It is a spiritual message, that the human mind cannot rationalise. Only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light. The natural mind would say such a message is a licence to sin, the mind led by the Holy Spirit knows it is not, it is actually victory over sin:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law/observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Rom3:20-22



Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Bearing in mind the definition of sin, Rom3:20 could be written as:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by not committing sin; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

This is then considered to be a licence to sin, that is what you believe. However:
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Rom6:14

How could the rational mind accept a message, that in reality states: Because your sin cannot make you unrighteous in God's sight, sin shall not be your master.

The mind of man cannot accept it, so people try and place you back under the law/righteousness of obeying the law. They will tell you: ''You can only be in a justified state if you obey the law/do not commit sin. The law will not condemn you as long as you do not break it. If you love God you will obey him/his laws, therefore if they are not obeyed, it proves you do not love God and therefore you cannot be in a justified/righteous state.'' Etc

In the real world, you then must live your life under righteousness of obeying the law, no matter how skillfully people try and word it and say it is not true. It always comes back to rom7:6 in the end:
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Saint Steven said:

LGW agrees with you. That says a lot.

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So wait, I brought to light the very verses that you claimed were going to prove your point and asked you to demonstrate it. And, all you could muster was a one-line attack? I understand you wouldn't want to defend your false belief with Scripture, because if you did, someone somewhere might find your use of Scripture to be offensive, so you'd rather not use it, right?

Not sure what LGW stands for. But, knowing you, from your postings, that was undoubtedly intended to be a slight. I am sure if it is a group that doesn't believe the whole of what Scripture says, I would disagree with them as much, and as fervently, as I disagree with you, though we might have a view points where our beliefs cross. I would expect that you and I might find a few points where we agree as well. But, clearly that doesn't mean that you and I agree on everything.

So where do we go from here? Do you want to continue to play this game where I cite Scripture and you evade and deflect or do you want to just "agree to disagree"?

Karola said:

And this is what so many struggle with. Obedience, is definitely the result of salvation, it does not bring salvation.
Paul received his message from Christ himself, no one taught him it. It is a spiritual message, that the human mind cannot rationalise. Only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light. The natural mind would say such a message is a licence to sin, the mind led by the Holy Spirit knows it is not, it is actually victory over sin:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law/observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Rom3:20-22



Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Bearing in mind the definition of sin, Rom3:20 could be written as:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by not committing sin; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

This is then considered to be a licence to sin, that is what you believe. However:
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Rom6:14

How could the rational mind accept a message, that in reality states: Because your sin cannot make you unrighteous in God's sight, sin shall not be your master.

The mind of man cannot accept it, so people try and place you back under the law/righteousness of obeying the law. They will tell you: ''You can only be in a justified state if you obey the law/do not commit sin. The law will not condemn you as long as you do not break it. If you love God you will obey him/his laws, therefore if they are not obeyed, it proves you do not love God and therefore you cannot be in a justified/righteous state.'' Etc

In the real world, you then must live your life under righteousness of obeying the law, no matter how skillfully people try and word it and say it is not true. It always comes back to rom7:6 in the end:
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

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I hear this so often that I have to comment on it.

"Sin is the transgression of the law."
Meaning, transgressing the law is to sin.

Notice that the word "sin", in the quote above, is capitalized as if it is the beginning of the sentence. When it is actually the second half.

But the "proof-text" used said it the other way around. It is talking about sin first and the law secondarily. The whole context is about sin, not about the law. But it is convenient for those who promote the law to quote only the half they want.

1 John 3:4 NIV
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Saint Steven said:

I hear this so often that I have to comment on it.

"Sin is the transgression of the law."
Meaning, transgressing the law is to sin.

Notice that the word "sin", in the quote above, is capitalized as if it is the beginning of the sentence. When it is actually the second half.

But the "proof-text" used said it the other way around. It is talking about sin first and the law secondarily. The whole context is about sin, not about the law. But it is convenient for those who promote the law to quote only the half they want.

1 John 3:4 NIV
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

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I have amended my post, and quoted the whole of the verse, sin now does not have a capital letter

Johnny4ChristJesus said:

So wait, I brought to light the very verses that you claimed were going to prove your point and asked you to demonstrate it. And, all you could muster was a one-line attack? I understand you wouldn't want to defend your false belief with Scripture, because if you did, someone somewhere might find your use of Scripture to be offensive, so you'd rather not use it, right?

Not sure what LGW stands for. But, knowing you, from your postings, that was undoubtedly intended to be a slight. I am sure if it is a group that doesn't believe the whole of what Scripture says, I would disagree with them as much, and as fervently, as I disagree with you, though we might have a view points where our beliefs cross. I would expect that you and I might find a few points where we agree as well. But, clearly that doesn't mean that you and I agree on everything.

So where do we go from here? Do you want to continue to play this game where I cite Scripture and you evade and deflect or do you want to just "agree to disagree"?

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I see no hope for a positive or edifying relationship with you.

LoveGodsWord said:

Not at all context is the 10 commandments as James sets the context with Do not kill and and Do not commit adultery v10-11

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No, it's not. The 10C were merely the bottom line commandments. Murder, not hate; adultery, not lust. The subject is showing partiality and how it breaks the eternal law of God that is written on our hearts, not the 10C. The 10C were shown as an example that if you broke one, you broke them all. That is the only reason they are shown, because everyone was familiar with the 10C and the Old Covenant. But, now that we have the current Law of Liberty from sin through the Spirit, which far surpassed the 10C, to show partiality is breaking the law of love. You can't love in one area, and not in all. Showing partiality may seem minor and not all the way to hate, but to God you are breaking God's eternal law of love.

ViaCrucis said:

Quick question before I enter back into the fray:

Which of the 10 Commandments is it that Jesus tells us is the Greatest Commandment? Yes, it is a trick question, because according to Jesus the Greatest Commandment isn't any of the 10. Instead Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18. These two commandments are, according to Jesus, the greatest commandments. Are these commandments God's Eternal Law, or are these merely the Law of Moses?

-CryptoLutheran

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They are the eternal laws, the ones written on our hearts that far surpass the bottom line commandments (the 10C) that were instituted to guard us until Jesus, who raised the level to bring us all the way to righteousness.

Karola said:

I have amended my post, and quoted the whole of the verse, sin now does not have a capital letter

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Thanks.
Some like to use that verse to promote the law that we are not under. I like what the Apostle Paul said to clarify this situation. He mentions three laws.
1) The law (which he is not under)
2) God's law (which he is not free from)
3) Christ's law (which he is under)

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
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If those who claim that being under the law means being under "the condemnation" of the law, will they apply the same definition to Christ's law? That being under Christ's law means being under "the condemnation" of the Christ's law?

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul here differentiates between "the law" and "God's law". Not the same thing. Imagine that. I define God's law as the law of human conscience. As seen in these scriptures. (compare to all the negative scriptures about "the law")

Romans 7:22
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
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I believe that is what this scripture is referring to.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Saint Steven said:

Thanks.
Some like to use that verse to promote the law that we are not under. I like what the Apostle Paul said to clarify this situation. He mentions three laws.
1) The law (which he is not under)
2) God's law (which he is not free from)
3) Christ's law (which he is under)

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
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If those who claim that being under the law means being under "the condemnation" of the law, will they apply the same definition to Christ's law? That being under Christ's law means being under "the condemnation" of the Christ's law?

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul here differentiates between "the law" and "God's law". Not the same thing. Imagine that. I define God's law as the law of human conscience. As seen in these scriptures. (compare to all the negative scriptures about "the law")

Romans 7:22
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
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I believe that is what this scripture is referring to.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

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Not being under the law means not being under the condemnation of it. For our righteousness is faith in Christ.
There is nothing wrong with God desiring believers not to take his name in vain, covet, steal, bear false witness, murder etc. Those thongs are holy, just and good. God did not abolish what is holy, just and good, He placed them in the minds and hearts of believers. What he did abolish was righteousness of observing the law, therefore the Christian is not under the law. This, for the truly born again believer cannot be viewed as a licence to sin, for, it is in their hearts not to want to covet, steal, lie, murder, commit adultery etc. The law in their hearts is followed by love, which fulfils the law, or we can say the fruits of the Spirit(Gal5:23) for against that fruit there is no law. I can only repeat, it is not hankering after the law, if you in your heart do not want to lie, steal, covet commit adultery etc

1stcenturylady said:

They are the eternal laws, the ones written on our hearts that far surpass the bottom line commandments (the 10C) that were instituted to guard us until Jesus, who raised the level to bring us all the way to righteousness.

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I like the direction you steering the discussion. (even if we are off-topic) While the cat's away...

I see layers of law. (a historical view) Do you see it this way?
- God's eternal law (the law of human conscience) from the beginning.
- The law (given by God to the Israelites through Moses) the 613 laws. (law of Moses)
- The Ten Commandments (a subset of the 613) and on stone tablets.
- Christ's law (the new covenant of grace -- added to God's eternal law)