Prewrath?

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What does the text say?

Rev 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see."
Rev 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Any unbiased reader would say that the seal was opened by Christ, and then John was told... "Come and see.", and then John looked at the vision and tells us what he saw.

How could John see the event if the seal had not been opened?
.

Simple. He saw a vision of the seal being opened.


If someone gives me a book as a Christmas present wrapped as a gift, how can I read it without taking off the wrapping paper?

Well according to you all 6 seals have been opened, and I don't see mountains moving around and the wrath of God beginning.

Maybe the seals haven't been opened. Maybe John saw a vision of them being opened. Seems logical




 
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BABerean2

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Well according to you all 6 seals have been opened, and I don't see mountains moving around and the wrath of God beginning.

I never said what John saw and recorded has happened yet.

If John "saw" future events during the first century, then the seals which revealed those events were "opened" by Christ during the first century.

I have no idea when the mountains will move and the wrath of God begins.
No man is supposed to know the day or the hour of His future Second Coming.

Can you explain how John "saw" and recorded what he saw, if the seals on the book were never opened?


.
 
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I never said what John saw and recorded has happened yet.

If John "saw" future events during the first century, then the seals which revealed those events were "opened" by Christ during the first century..


John saw a vision. Simple as that.


I have no idea when the mountains will move and the wrath of God begins.
No man is supposed to know the day or the hour of His future Second Coming.
.
That's what they say, isn't it. You might want to check the scripture on that.


Can you explain how John "saw" and recorded what he saw, if the seals on the book were never opened?
Sure. He saw a vision of the seals being opened, just like he saw a vision of what will occur during the seal. Nothing complicated. Additionally, it's pretty easy to conclude that none of the seals have been opened by what happens in the seals.
 
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BABerean2

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Sure. He saw a vision of the seals being opened, just like he saw a vision of what will occur during the seal. Nothing complicated. Additionally, it's pretty easy to conclude that none of the seals have been opened by what happens in the seals.

Based on your logic, John could not have seen future events.

When do you think Jesus will open the seals and show John what will happen in the future?



.
 
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Based on your logic, John could not have seen future events.

When do you think Jesus will open the seals and show John what will happen in the future?



.
Based on my logic John saw a vision of the seals being opened and a vision of what was in the seals. Based on your logic, we are in the wrath of God.
 
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BABerean2

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Based on my logic John saw a vision of the seals being opened and a vision of what was in the seals. Based on your logic, we are in the wrath of God.

You seem to be confused over the difference between the revelation of a prophetic vision, and the actual future occurrence of that event.

We find a prophetic vision of Christ in "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53.

The event revealed to Isaiah occurred hundreds of years after he received the vision.

Is there some reason that you want Christ to open the seals in the future, instead of during the first century?


.
 
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You seem to be confused over the difference between the revelation of a prophetic vision, and the actual future occurrence of that event..

You seem to be confused thinking that I am confused

Is there some reason that you want Christ to open the seals in the future, instead of during the first century?

So we both agree :oldthumbsup: that the signs of the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24 are the same signs that we see in Revelation 6. I find it odd that you toss out the rest of Matthew 24 as it relates to the rest of the seals...........that are not opened yet.

Really no use in us discussing this any further as we are too far apart as to what has happened and what will happen.

For example, when they ask Jesus to tell them when these things will happen, and what is the sign of thy coming and the end of the age.............I think that Jesus answers the endtimes questions. You think Jesus says..........well let me tell you about the next 2000 years.

So no use in rehashing what we've already discussed. I feel you are having too much confusion finding the nation of Israel as it is.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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BABerean2 said:
Based on your logic, John could not have seen future events.
When do you think Jesus will open the seals and show John what will happen in the future?
Based on my logic John saw a vision of the seals being opened and a vision of what was in the seals. Based on your logic, we are in the wrath of God.
I guess we could look back at the wrath that befell the Jews in 70ad to better understand about it in a future wrath on Jerusalem?

Btw, did anyone notice that the word for wrath<3709> that is used in Revelation occurs only 5 times in the Gospels, 2 of those in Luke.
I noticed it when I was looking at Luke's "days of vengeance" in fulfillment of Isaiah 61:2.

"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation


G3709 (KJV)

Matthew 3:
7 Yet seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood<1081> of vipers!
Who intimates ye to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709>?"

10 Already now the ax is applied to the root of the trees.
Therefore every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Luke 3
7 Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood<1081 of vipers!
Who intimates ye to flee from the being about wrath/ὀργῆς<3709>?"

9 And already also the ax is applied to the root of the trees;
therefore every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and is thrown into the fire.

[Revelation 6:16-17]

Luke 21:
22 That days of vengeance these are,
of the to be fulfilled all the having been written, .
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!
for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath/ὀργὴ<3709> upon this people.

28 Of beginning yet of these to be becoming up-bend, and lift up the heads of ye,
thru that is nearing the loosing of ye.'
[Revelation 11:18]

Romans 1:18
for revealed is the wrath/ὀργὴ<3709> of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.
[Luke 21:23 Revelation 11:18]

Revelation 6:
16 And they said to the mountains and rocks,
"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> of the Lamb:[Luke 23:30]
17 For the great day of His wrath/ὀργῆς<3709> is come;

and who shall be able to stand?
[Matthew 3:7 Luke 3:7]

Revelation 11:18
The nations are angered<3710>, and came Thy wrath/ὀργή<3709>,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”


.
 
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BABerean2

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I feel you are having too much confusion finding the nation of Israel as it is.


Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

.
 
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Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

.
:oldthumbsup:Thanks for confirming my suspicions
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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JM said:
Any Prewrath Rapture proponents on CF?

Thanks,
jm
Why, are you one?
Had to look that up......

Prewrath - Wikipedia

The concept of a prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end times events among some evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Great Tribulation, and before The Day of the Lord. The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between Satan's wrath in the Great Tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

What Does the Pre-Wrath Rapture Position Teach? - Ep. 17

In the main part of the program I discussed the following 15 tenets of prewrath eschatology:

1. There is a future seven-year period, and at the midpoint the Antichrist will be revealed and commit the abomination of desolation, initiating his great tribulation against the Church and Israel.

2. There is a biblical distinction between the Antichrist’s great tribulation against the Church and Israel and the day of the Lord’s wrath against the ungodly. The latter event happens after the former event.

3. The gathering of the elect mentioned in Matthew 24:31 refers to the rapture (cf. Mark 13:27; Luke 21:28; Rev 7:9–17; 1 Thess 4:13–18; 2 Thess 2:1).

4. At an unknown day and hour during the second half of the seven-year period, the Antichrist’s great tribulation will be cut short by the Revelation of Christ to resurrect and rapture God’s people, and this will be followed immediately by the day of the Lord’s wrath executed upon the ungodly.

5. On the same day the rapture happens, the onset of the day of the Lord’s wrath takes place, just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:22–37; cf. 2 Thess 1:5–10).

6. The second coming (parousia) is not a simple (instantaneous) event. The second coming is a complex-whole event containing various purposes of God, beginning with the Revelation of Christ in the sky displaying his Shekinah glory and power to the whole world, and resurrecting and rapturing God’s people, followed by the day of the Lord’s judgments upon the ungodly and Antichrist’s kingdom, restoring Israel to salvation, and culminating in Christ’s earthly reign.

7. Although Armageddon is an element within the complex-whole second coming, Armageddon does not initiate the second coming; instead, the second coming begins between the sixth and seventh seal.

8. The resurrection and rapture happens between the opening of the sixth seal and the seventh seal.

9. The first six seals are not part of the day of the Lord’s wrath. The first six seals are conditional events that must happen before Christ’s return.

10. The sixth seal signals the impending day of the Lord’s wrath as recorded in Joel 2:30–31; Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25–26; Mark 13:23–25; and Revelation 6:12–17.

11. The seventh seal pronounces the day of the Lord’s wrath.

12. The trumpets, bowls, and Armageddon contain and execute the day of the Lord’s wrath.

13. The trumpets, bowls, and Armageddon will not occur before the seventh seal is opened.

14. Paul’s “last trumpet” (1 Cor 15:52) is not identified as the seventh trumpet judgment in the book of Revelation.

15. Christ’s return to resurrect and rapture God’s people is not imminent (“any moment”), since discernible prophesied events must happen first (e.g., the Antichrist’s revelation and his ensuing great tribulation; the apostasy; coming of Elijah; and a cluster of discernible celestial events). Christ can return in any generation of the Church.

The Pre-wrath Tribune: Are Matthew 24 And Luke 21 The Same Teaching? Part 2

Are Matthew 24 And Luke 21 The Same Teaching? Part 2
In the last column, we looked at the scriptural evidence for the fact that, while both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 contain strong similarities, the bulk of these two sections of scripture are different teachings given at separate times. Both passages teach of the future return of Christ, but I believe the “tribulation” described in Matt. 24:9-22 is the period of time where the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place at the midpoint of the yet-to-happen 70th Week of Daniel. The “persecution” described in Luke 21:12-24 speaks of the historical attack on Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.
 
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Berean Tim

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Had to look that up......

Prewrath - Wikipedia

The concept of a prewrath rapture is one of several premillennial views on the end times events among some evangelical Christians, and states that Christians will be raptured at the end of a time called the Great Tribulation, and before The Day of the Lord. The prewrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between Satan's wrath in the Great Tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

What Does the Pre-Wrath Rapture Position Teach? - Ep. 17

In the main part of the program I discussed the following 15 tenets of prewrath eschatology:

1. There is a future seven-year period, and at the midpoint the Antichrist will be revealed and commit the abomination of desolation, initiating his great tribulation against the Church and Israel.

2. There is a biblical distinction between the Antichrist’s great tribulation against the Church and Israel and the day of the Lord’s wrath against the ungodly. The latter event happens after the former event.

3. The gathering of the elect mentioned in Matthew 24:31 refers to the rapture (cf. Mark 13:27; Luke 21:28; Rev 7:9–17; 1 Thess 4:13–18; 2 Thess 2:1).

4. At an unknown day and hour during the second half of the seven-year period, the Antichrist’s great tribulation will be cut short by the Revelation of Christ to resurrect and rapture God’s people, and this will be followed immediately by the day of the Lord’s wrath executed upon the ungodly.

5. On the same day the rapture happens, the onset of the day of the Lord’s wrath takes place, just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:22–37; cf. 2 Thess 1:5–10).

6. The second coming (parousia) is not a simple (instantaneous) event. The second coming is a complex-whole event containing various purposes of God, beginning with the Revelation of Christ in the sky displaying his Shekinah glory and power to the whole world, and resurrecting and rapturing God’s people, followed by the day of the Lord’s judgments upon the ungodly and Antichrist’s kingdom, restoring Israel to salvation, and culminating in Christ’s earthly reign.

7. Although Armageddon is an element within the complex-whole second coming, Armageddon does not initiate the second coming; instead, the second coming begins between the sixth and seventh seal.

8. The resurrection and rapture happens between the opening of the sixth seal and the seventh seal.

9. The first six seals are not part of the day of the Lord’s wrath. The first six seals are conditional events that must happen before Christ’s return.

10. The sixth seal signals the impending day of the Lord’s wrath as recorded in Joel 2:30–31; Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25–26; Mark 13:23–25; and Revelation 6:12–17.

11. The seventh seal pronounces the day of the Lord’s wrath.

12. The trumpets, bowls, and Armageddon contain and execute the day of the Lord’s wrath.

13. The trumpets, bowls, and Armageddon will not occur before the seventh seal is opened.

14. Paul’s “last trumpet” (1 Cor 15:52) is not identified as the seventh trumpet judgment in the book of Revelation.

15. Christ’s return to resurrect and rapture God’s people is not imminent (“any moment”), since discernible prophesied events must happen first (e.g., the Antichrist’s revelation and his ensuing great tribulation; the apostasy; coming of Elijah; and a cluster of discernible celestial events). Christ can return in any generation of the Church.

The Pre-wrath Tribune: Are Matthew 24 And Luke 21 The Same Teaching? Part 2

Are Matthew 24 And Luke 21 The Same Teaching? Part 2
In the last column, we looked at the scriptural evidence for the fact that, while both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 contain strong similarities, the bulk of these two sections of scripture are different teachings given at separate times. Both passages teach of the future return of Christ, but I believe the “tribulation” described in Matt. 24:9-22 is the period of time where the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place at the midpoint of the yet-to-happen 70th Week of Daniel. The “persecution” described in Luke 21:12-24 speaks of the historical attack on Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.
Thank You Little Lamb. I'm PreWrath and hold to these points. However I'll leave room for variants to some. I don't think any of us knows exactly how it will happen
 
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BABerean2

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1. There is a future seven-year period, and at the midpoint the Antichrist will be revealed and commit the abomination of desolation, initiating his great tribulation against the Church and Israel.

2. There is a biblical distinction between the Antichrist’s great tribulation against the Church and Israel and the day of the Lord’s wrath against the ungodly. The latter event happens after the former event.

If you start wrong, you will usually end up wrong.

1. There is no 7 year tribulation period found in scripture.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 month period in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

2. There is only one people of God found in John 10:16.
An understanding of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, destroys the Two Peoples of God doctrine.


.
 
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keras

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So, what you're saying is PreWrath is legit?
NO 'rapture to heaven' is legit!
That fanciful idea is never to be found in the Bible.
The joke is that those who like the idea of going to heaven, something that Jesus specifically said was impossible, is that this false teaching has been discussed for over 100 years, without any real consensus.
Isn't that fact enough to indicate the inherent foolishness and deception of the whole 'rapture' theory?
Why is it so difficult for people to see that God will continue His Plan to have a people in His holy Land, who will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16
Every faithful born again Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
 
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iamlamad

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So, what you're saying is PreWrath is legit?
Since I disgree MUCH with keras, I want to answer your question.

Is "prewrath" legit? If someone said, "the rapture of the church will be before God's wrath" I would agree, 100%. God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath.
The great crowd John saw in heaven, in Rev. 7, is the just raptured church. The church will be taken out a moment before the Day of the Lord begins. That is what Paul teaches us in 1 Thes. 5, and what John shows us in Revelation.

HOWEVER: the "standardized" "prewrath" theory started by Rosenthal and Van Kampen is 99% BOGUS. Their theory which has become very popular and called "prewrath" is just plain WRONG. These two men started off on the wrong foot, and ended up miles from the intent of the scriptures.

One day Van Kampen called Rosenthal and said, "I FOUND IT!" His meaning, he found this "key" that believers had missed for centuries: the key to when the rapture would be.

So what was it he found? He read in Matthew 24 that the signs in the sun and moon would come AFTER the "tribulation." He read in Joel 2 that the signs in the sun and moon would be BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Therefore, in his (Van Kampen's) mind, the correct order would be tribulation first, then signs in the sun and moon, then the rapture, then Day of the Lord.

Is this really what the word of God tells us? No, they started off with error, and ended up with GROSS error.

The TRUTH? Indeed, just as Joel tells us, there WILL BE signs in the sun and moon - the moon turning blood red - meaning a moon that is SEEN. And this is the sign for the Day of the Lord. It begins just as John shows us, at the 6th seal. (Note carefully that the 6th seal comes before the 7th, and that the trumpet judgments follow the 7 seals and that the vials come after the 7 trumpets.)

John's order or chronology is perfect as written and needs no rearranging. The signs come with the moon appearing blood red. Then THE DAY starts (6th seal) then the 70th week or "the trib" starts at the 7th seal. The trumpets come in the first half of the week, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.

"The tribulation" or the 70th week is covered from chapters 8 through chapters 16 in Revelation, ending with the 7th vial. Yet, for Prewrath, the days of tribulation are forced to be before the 6th seal - or seals 1 through 5! In reality, seals 1 through 5 are church age.

Finally, somewhere in chapter 19, just before Jesus comes, there will be signs in the sun and moon AGAIN (second time) but they will be different: it will be totally dark - neither the sun or moon will be visible! And this will be the sign of HIS COMING to the battle of Armageddon.

Always remember: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect - and WILL BE proven wrong.
 
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iamlamad

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1. There is a future seven-year period, and at the midpoint the Antichrist will be revealed and commit the abomination of desolation, initiating his great tribulation against the Church and Israel.
This is truth: this exact midpoint is 'marked' by the 7th trumpet.
2. There is a biblical distinction between the Antichrist’s great tribulation against the Church and Israel and the day of the Lord’s wrath against the ungodly. The latter event happens after the former event.
People TRY and separate the Day of the Lord from the days of great tribulation - but does God and does John? Absolutely not! John starts THE DAY at the 6th seal. Then starts the 70th week or "the trib" at the 7th seal. Then BOTH are continuing on concurrently. The 70th week or "the trib" ends at the 7th vial, but THE DAY continues on.

In other words, the trib, or the 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. This is the way John wrote it. What John shows us, is that the days of great tribulation caused by the Beast and False prophet come WHILE or DURING God's wrath - both are concurrent or simultaneous - happening at the same time. It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE to separate them as far as time is concerned.

The truth is, God begins to pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN the days of great tribulation - again proving they are simultaneous events: Satan's wrath at its peak, when God begins the vials filled with His wrath.
 
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iamlamad

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3. The gathering of the elect mentioned in Matthew 24:31 refers to the rapture (cf. Mark 13:27; Luke 21:28; Rev 7:9–17; 1 Thess 4:13–18; 2 Thess 2:1).
...

People have been attempting to make the gathering in Matthew 24 the same as the gathering in 2 Thes. 2 - that is Paul's rapture. The truth is, they are two different gatherings that come at two different times, separated by over 7 years of time.

The Matthew 24 gathering gathers from heaven. Paul's gathering gathers from earth. If we look in all the gospels, the gathering in Matthew 24 will gather from all of heaven and all of earth. This cannot possibly be Paul's gathering that gathers from earth. The dead in Christ fly up out of their graves, then those alive in Christ are changed and fly up, and TO-GATHER we are raised up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. It is an EARTH gathering.

Paul's gathering comes a moment before the start of the Day of the Lord, so a moment before the 6th seal in Revelation. The Matthew 24 gathering, IF JOHN WROTE OF IT - would be written in Rev. 19 as Jesus descends to earth. John did not see it so did not write it.
 
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