Discussion moved from "End Times Fiction" thread

Douggg said:

It is real easy to see Jesus is not talking about the church as Israel.

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Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

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Douggg said:

You are posturing the question in light of Jesus died and came out of the grave as being something that all of us Christians believe on is the foundation of the gospel preached throughout the world, as our salvation for forgiveness and removal of sins.

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Correct, because only Jesus can put away sin, only can Jesus atone for wickedness, no? Do you believe anyone else can fulfill those 2 points from Daniel 9:24?

So again, do you believe that ANY, even 1, of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled yet? It's a simple yes or no.

Douggg said:

But Daniel 9 is not framed as being directed at us Christians. The six points are something that will be completed when the people they are directed to receive Jesus.

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Daniel 9 is framed as being directed at Jesus, who was from Daniel's people and city. Jesus ended the transgression by obeying the law perfectly to the point of death, Jesus put away sin by his sacrifice, Jesus atoned for wickedness by his sacrifice, Jesus brought in everlasting righteousness before God, Jesus fulfilled everything written about him in the law, prophets, and psalms, Jesus is the Most Holy that was anointed.

And guess what, he fulfilled it perfectly within the time frame of 70 weeks (490 years).

The work is done, "it is finished".

Douggg said:

Have Israel's and Jerusalem's transgressions against Jesus been reconciled yet? The answer is "no",

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The answer is 'yes'. By Jesus' death he redeemed those who committed transgressions under the first covenant. Those under the 1st covenant would be Israel or gentile proselytes. For you to say 'no', you must deny the truth of Hebrews 9:15:
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

It seems you are stating that because present national Israel, that is not currently under the old covenant with God, is unfaithful and unbelieving, that God's promises are yet to be fulfilled, ie: no atonement for sin by the cross just yet, not putting away of sin by the cross just yet......
Romans 3:3-4 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar,

claninja said:

And guess what, he fulfilled it perfectly within the time frame of 70 weeks (490 years).

The work is done, "it is finished".

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Aren't there authors in the NT who would have written things that are now included in the NT, where these things were written after this 70 weeks were allegedly fulfilled? Where in their writings do any of them ever declare that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled and exactly when, to the day, that they were finished? Why would they have been silent on something as important as that, if these 70 weeks were already finished when they were writing things that are now included in the NT?

claninja said:

It seems you are stating that because present national Israel, that is not currently under the old covenant with God, is unfaithful and unbelieving, that God's promises are yet to be fulfilled, ie: no atonement for sin by the cross just yet, not putting away of sin by the cross just yet......

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There is only one way to be saved, and Israel, Jerusalem, have not received it yet. It will not be until the middle of the 7 years, that Daniel's people Israel, and Jerusalem receive salvation and the kingdom.

It tells you in Revelation 12, that is going to happen after the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, followed by the war in heaven and Satan cast down...

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Satan accuses the Jews, Israel, of rejecting Christ day and night, of their sins, which they have not received his shed blood to wash them away. But in the middle of the 7 years, they turn to Jesus, and have the testimony of Jesus.
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Jesus returns to rescue the Jews in Zechariah 14. And he destroys those armies in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

And is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29. Who is Jesus talking about in those verses - the church or another group? It is easy to see He is not talking about the chruch.

Satan has already been cast out onto the earth.

Douggg said:

There is only one way to be saved, and Israel, Jerusalem, have not received it yet. It will not be until the middle of the 7 years, that Daniel's people Israel, and Jerusalem receive salvation and the kingdom.

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It is a good thing that One For Israel, which is a Christian Bible college in central Israel, does not know that Israelis cannot receive the Gospel yet...

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DavidPT said:

Here's is a question or two for you or anyone to answer. If there is no AC found in Daniel 9, how did this idea originate then, and for what reason? When was the first known time that someone concluded there is an AC found in Daniel 9 in the passage in question? If this can be traced back to the early days of the church where this idea initially originated, one can't blame it on modern thought in that case. Unlike something such as Pretrib where that is apparently a modern thought, and not something those in the early church ever concluded at the time.

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I am going to give you an opinion.

During the early years of the Church, very few people had a complete Bible such as we have today.

Very few people of that time understood the battle between the New Covenant of Christ and the Old Covenant. The Judaisers have won that battle during much of the history of the Church.

An incorrect interpretation of Daniel 9:27 came out of this confusion.

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DavidPT said:

Where in their writings do any of them ever declare that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled and exactly when, to the day, that they were finished?

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There is not 1 NT scripture that specifically states the 70 week prophecy has been fulfilled or when it would be fulfilled

There is also not 1 NT scripture that states the Anointed one would be cut off after 69 weeks. Does this mean the Anointed one has not been cut off yet?

DavidPT said:

Why would they have been silent on something as important as that, if these 70 weeks were already finished when they were writing things that are now included in the NT?

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There is a plethora of scripture that states the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled.

You believe that Jesus was cut off after the 69th week, even though NT scripture does not explicitly state that Jesus was crucified 69 weeks after the word went forth to rebuild and restore Jerusalem. And yet, you demand that NT should explicitly state that the 70 weeks was fulfilled as proof of its fulfillment, even though there are many scriptures stating the fulfillment of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24?

DavidPT said:

Here's is a question or two for you or anyone to answer. If there is no AC found in Daniel 9, how did this idea originate then, and for what reason? When was the first known time that someone concluded there is an AC found in Daniel 9 in the passage in question? If this can be traced back to the early days of the church where this idea initially originated, one can't blame it on modern thought in that case. Unlike something such as Pretrib where that is apparently a modern thought, and not something those in the early church ever concluded at the time.

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It began with the apostate papacy's attempt in the 16th century to deflect the Protestant Reformation doctrine of the apostate papacy as (an) antichrist, by commissioning Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera to produce a “counter-reformation” doctrine, which he did. That doctrine embodied a futurized antichrist. No Protestant was deceived by it until the 19th century, when Canterbury librarian Samuel Maitland, who scorned the Reformation, began to espouse the doctrine. The infection spread and was ultimately contracted by John Nelson Darby, who incorporated it in the dogmas of nascent dispensationalism. The dispensational adoption of a futurized antichrist necessitated the futurization of the 70th week of Daniel 9 in a heterodox attempt to harmonize the associated prophecies.

Dispensationalists claim that the early Church believed in a futurized antichrist. There certainly were those who did, but the papacy did not begin to emerge until the 4th century, and its apostasy did not begin to emerge until at least the 10th century. By the time of the Reformation, there were no Reformers who believed in a futurized antichrist. There can be little doubt that those of the early Church who believed in a futurized antichrist, had they theoretically survived to see the Reformation, would have joined the ranks of the Reformers in recognition of the identity of the predominant antichrist of the era, the apostate papacy.

And that's the (very brief) history of a counterfeit doctrine which is one of the essential underpinnings of modern dispensationalism.

Douggg said:

There is only one way to be saved, and Israel, Jerusalem, have not received it yet.

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I agree there is only 1 way to be saved. But I disagree that Israel has not been saved. those who believe are in Christ. And those who are in Christ are Abrahams' seed: Israel.

Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Douggg said:

It will not be until the middle of the 7 years, that Daniel's people Israel, and Jerusalem receive salvation and the kingdom.

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You are correct that Israel received salvation in the middle of the 70th week. You are incorrect that it is future. Salvation comes through Jesus, who was crucified in the midst of the 70th week, to all who obey.

Hebrews 5:8-9 although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered.And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Douggg said:

It tells you in Revelation 12, that is going to happen after the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, followed by the war in heaven and Satan cast down...

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Satan was cast out when Jesus ascended.

John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

The dragon chases the woman after he is cast out of heaven
Revelation 12:13 and when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

The woman goes into the wilderness after her child goes to heaven
Revelation 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

Thus the dragon is cast out when the child ascends to heaven.

The woman is nourished for 3.5 years following Jesus ascension. Thus, here is where you find the final half of the 70th week.

Douggg said:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

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Believers were already overcoming satan in the 1st century, thus satan was already cast out:
Revelation 12:11
They overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony;

1 John 2:14 I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Douggg said:

And is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29. Who is Jesus talking about in those verses - the church or another group? It is easy to see He is not talking about the chruch.

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The house of Israel received the Spirit at pentacost. This fulfilled Ezekiel 39:29

Ezekiel 39:29 And I will no longer hide My face from them, for I will pour out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ declares the Lord GOD.”

Acts 2:15-17 These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people;

claninja said:

The house of Israel received the Spirit at pentacost. This fulfilled Ezekiel 39:29

Ezekiel 39:29 And I will no longer hide My face from them, for I will pour out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ declares the Lord GOD.”

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You need to look at the verses that precede Ezekiel 39:29. Ezekiel 39:17-28.... then
Ezekiel 39:29.

claninja said:

For you to say 'no', you must deny the truth of Hebrews 9:15:
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

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DFs don't set much store by the letter to the Hebrews, and for the most part act as though it wasn't there. Otherwise they'd never be able to swallow the idea that the Church will be put aside and animal sacrifice in the Temple reinstated.

Here are details of the Ezekiel's Temple that our DF brethren are willing to accept as normative in "The Millennium:

18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.

19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt offer them before the Lord, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord God.


You can't really get far with that stuff in light of Hebrews, so the DFs just kind of treat the Letter like a dead possum, ignoring it if at all possible.

But wait, there's more:

18 Thus saith the Lord God; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary:
19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
20 And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house.
21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
23 And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the Lord, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
24 And he shall prepare a meat offering of an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and an hin of oil for an ephah.
25 In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.


These aren't some commemorations of bygone Temple ritual we're talking about, not some "aftershadowing" (a ridiculous concept on its face) of what had come before, these are the Temple rituals begun again, with the blood of livestock in place of the Blood of Christ. How is it possible to have read Hebrews, and understood it, and believed it, and still accept this as the future of the Kingdom of God?

"Oh," they say, "our Lord will be the High Priest." Good of them to give Him something to do, overseeing the spilling of the blood of cattle for sin offerings. Guess His sacrifice wasn't really once and for all time.

Can thinking Christians who have studied the New Testament and claim to believe it actually embrace such abominable nonsense?

DavidPT said:

Aren't there authors in the NT who would have written things that are now included in the NT, where these things were written after this 70 weeks were allegedly fulfilled?

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The idea that Daniel wwould be embraced as an "End Times" prophecy probably would not have occurred to them. The would also probably have expected that no one would be silly enough to think that the 70th week didn't immediately follow the 69th.

jgr said:

It began with the apostate papacy's attempt in the 16th century to deflect the Protestant Reformation doctrine of the apostate papacy as (an) antichrist, by commissioning Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera to produce a “counter-reformation” doctrine, which he did. That doctrine embodied a futurized antichrist. No Protestant was deceived by it until the 19th century, when Canterbury librarian Samuel Maitland, who scorned the Reformation, began to espouse the doctrine. The infection spread and was ultimately contracted by John Nelson Darby, who incorporated it in the dogmas of nascent dispensationalism. The dispensational adoption of a futurized antichrist necessitated the futurization of the 70th week of Daniel 9 in a heterodox attempt to harmonize the associated prophecies.

Dispensationalists claim that the early Church believed in a futurized antichrist. There certainly were those who did, but the papacy did not begin to emerge until the 4th century, and its apostasy did not begin to emerge until at least the 10th century. By the time of the Reformation, there were no Reformers who believed in a futurized antichrist. There can be little doubt that those of the early Church who believed in a futurized antichrist, had they theoretically survived to see the Reformation, would have joined the ranks of the Reformers in recognition of the identity of the predominant antichrist of the era, the apostate papacy.

And that's the (very brief) history of a counterfeit doctrine which is one of the essential underpinnings of modern dispensationalism.

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ditto

BABerean2 said:

It is a good thing that One For Israel, which is a Christian Bible college in central Israel, does not know that Israelis cannot receive the Gospel yet...

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Anyone can receive the gospel, including individual Israeli's and Jews, at any time. The responsible and blessing given to the church is to spread the good news of the gospel. Luke 24:44-48.

As far as embracing the gospel, Israel, and Jerusalem, as a whole, do not embrace the gospel until the middle of the 7 years. Revelation 12:6-10.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 negates the new covenant theology (self labeling) group's claim that the church has become Israel. No video or text - can negate Jesus speaking right in the text of the old testament regarding Israel - just as if He was standing right before you speaking.

Among my favorite verses in the bible - Ezekiel 39:21-29 absolute proof that the church has not become Israel. Luke 24:44-48 the beginning of Christianity. Luke 21:34-36, the escape from the beginning of the Day of the Lord, the rapture.

jgr said:

It began with the apostate papacy's attempt in the 16th century to deflect the Protestant Reformation doctrine of the apostate papacy as (an) antichrist, by commissioning Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera to produce a “counter-reformation” doctrine, which he did. That doctrine embodied a futurized antichrist. No Protestant was deceived by it until the 19th century, when Canterbury librarian Samuel Maitland, who scorned the Reformation, began to espouse the doctrine. The infection spread and was ultimately contracted by John Nelson Darby, who incorporated it in the dogmas of nascent dispensationalism. The dispensational adoption of a futurized antichrist necessitated the futurization of the 70th week of Daniel 9 in a heterodox attempt to harmonize the associated prophecies.

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How about no-one except the clergy of the RCC ever since the church at Rome became so powerful - was allowed to read the bible to even know what was in it.

We are in the age when knowledge is increased - not only in the general sense - but also in eschatology understanding because for one thing the big impact of the internet.

Douggg said:

Among my favorite verses in the bible - Ezekiel 39:21-29 absolute proof that the church has not become Israel.

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John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There is only one fold.

Is that fold Israel, or is it the Church?

Douggg said:

How about no-one except the clergy of the RCC ever since the church at Rome became so powerful - was allowed to read the bible to even know what was in it.

We are in the age when knowledge is increased - not only in the general sense - but also in eschatology understanding because for one thing the big impact of the internet.

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The Reformers knew their Scripture. Many of them came out of the papacy.

jgr said:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There is only one fold.

Is that fold Israel, or is it the Church?

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Neither.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Douggg said:

Neither.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

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What's the name of that fold?