Church of Constantinople officially recognizes the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate

buzuxi02 · Oct 17, 2018

E.C. said:
QFT. If the Greeks would actually speak their mind to their own tribe we wouldn't have had this problem.

They still believe Hellenism = Orthodoxy. They think Orthodox Christian's need to remain on the Hellenic plantation.

E.C. said:
These two are the ones which the EP recognized a few days ago as autocephalous. Keep in mind that KP supporters constantly persecute the Orthodox and are Ukrainian nationalists.

Keep in mind they never got the autocephaly. they asked for. The document makes clear that the 2 sects should no longer use violence or try to seize each others properties. In other words these groups are not merging, they are remaining as seperate entities. What's happened is they have been subordinated into the EP and basically will be controlled by the Greeks!

E.C. · Oct 17, 2018

buzuxi02 said:
They still believe Hellenism = Orthodoxy. They think Orthodox Christian's need to remain on the Hellenic plantation.

A real shame. Even the Roman Catholics eventually realized that it isn't an Italian centered Church.

Keep in mind they never got the autocephaly. they asked for. The document makes clear that the 2 sects should no longer use violence or try to seize each others properties. In other words these groups are not merging, they are remaining as seperate entities. What's happened is they have been subordinated into the EP and basically will be controlled by the Greeks!

Does this mean they may seize MP properties?

Also I do not see them submitting to the EP so easily. If they claim to have a patriarch, how can one patriarch be under or subordinate to another?

buzuxi02 · Oct 17, 2018

E.C. said:
A real shame. Even the Roman Catholics eventually realized that it isn't an Italian centered Church.

Does this mean they may seize MP properties?

Also I do not see them submitting to the EP so easily. If they claim to have a patriarch, how can one patriarch be under or subordinate to another?

Supposedly the two sects will try to hold a council to elect a new leader. (Dont hold your breath) . It's unlikely the title patriarch of Kiev will be retained. The smaller sect styles itself as archbishop of Kiev and all Ukraine..

Point 5 goes onto say not to appropriate each others properties (confirming further this autocephaly are 2 seperate entities). You decide if the warning against violence and property seizure extends to the canonical Church of Ukraine:
Announcement (11/10/2018). - Announcements - The Ecumenical Patriarchate

E.C. · Oct 17, 2018

buzuxi02 said:
Supposedly the two sects will try to hold a council to elect a new leader. (Dont hold your breath) . It's unlikely the title patriarch of Kiev will be retained. The smaller sect styles itself as archbishop of Kiev and all Ukraine..

Point 5 goes onto say not to appropriate each others properties (confirming further this autocephaly are 2 seperate entities). You decide if the warning against violence and property seizure extends to the canonical Church of Ukraine:
Announcement (11/10/2018). - Announcements - The Ecumenical Patriarchate

Yep, looks like the EP does not care for the MP parishes, clergy nor people.

A key thing we're all forgetting here is that presidential elections are coming up in Ukraine. The nationalists need the autocephaly to have a remote chance of winning.

Platina · Oct 17, 2018

E.C. said:
Yep, looks like the EP does not care for the MP parishes, clergy nor people.

A key thing we're all forgetting here is that presidential elections are coming up in Ukraine. The nationalists need the autocephaly to have a remote chance of winning.

And they're really not even hiding that that's what it's about.

gzt · Oct 17, 2018

If you present only one side in the most pejorative way, of course, nothing will be hidden.

buzuxi02 · Oct 17, 2018

E.C. said:
Also I do not see them submitting to the EP so easily. If they claim to have a patriarch, how can one patriarch be under or subordinate to another?

According to this from Archbishop Job of Constantinople. Filaret is recognized as a Metropolitan not a patriarch anymore. (Not that this has stopped Filaret) Андрей Кураев

AMM · Oct 17, 2018

buzuxi02 said:
Supposedly the two sects will try to hold a council to elect a new leader. (Dont hold your breath) . It's unlikely the title patriarch of Kiev will be retained. The smaller sect styles itself as archbishop of Kiev and all Ukraine..

Point 5 goes onto say not to appropriate each others properties (confirming further this autocephaly are 2 seperate entities). You decide if the warning against violence and property seizure extends to the canonical Church of Ukraine:
Announcement (11/10/2018). - Announcements - The Ecumenical Patriarchate

"To revoke the legal binding of the Synodal Letter of the year 1686, issued for the circumstances of that time, which granted the right through oikonomia to the Patriarch of Moscow to ordain the Metropolitan of Kyiv, elected by the Clergy-Laity Assembly of his eparchy, who would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as the First hierarch at any celebration, proclaiming and affirming his canonical dependence to the Mother Church of Constantinople."

So I guess this question is at the root of the controversy right now, but is this action legitimate? Can bishops just decide to revoke synodal decisions? Further, if they can, does the revocation mean that everyone is supposed to act as though it was never a practice? It seems like if Constantinople were allowed to revoke the decision, that would have to be a discussion made with Moscow, not unilaterally. There also seems to be an important difference between giving a different Patriarch the right to ordain a certain territory and taking away a Patriach's right and claiming it as one's own.

buzuxi02 · Oct 17, 2018

To revoke a "legally binding" tomos is absurd. In fact it was reiterated again in 1725 making clear Kiev is under the MP. Also this 1686 document from my understanding does not really exist, it has been lost and is just patched together from secondary sources.. There is a letter from Saint John of San Francisco about the EP [prophetically] calling this overreach:

"Thus, the Ecumenical Patriarch has become actually "ecumenical" [universal] in the breadth of the territory which is theoretically subject to him. Almost the whole earthly globe, apart from the small territories of the three Patriarchates and the territory of Soviet Russia, according to the idea of the Patriarchate's leaders, enters into the composition of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Increasing without limit their desires to submit to themselves parts of Russia, the Patriarchs of Constantinople have even begun to declare the uncanonicity of the annexation of Kiev to the Moscow Patriarchate, and to declare that the previously existing southern Russian Metropolia of Kiev should be subject to the Throne of Constantinople. Such a point of view is not only clearly expressed in the Tomos of November 13, 1924, in connection with the separation of the Polish Church, but is also quite thoroughly promoted by the Patriarchs. Thus, the Vicar of Metropolitan Eulogius in Paris, who was consecrated with the permission of the Ecumenical Patriarch, has assumed the title of Chersonese; that is to say, Chersonese, which is now in the territory of Russia, is subject to the Ecumenical Patriarch. The next logical step for the Ecumenical Patriarchate would be to declare the whole of Russia as being under the jurisdiction of Constantinople." (The Decline of the Patriarchate of Constantinople)

prodromos · Oct 17, 2018

If it was in any way valid then Constantinople should return Thessaloniki to Rome's jurisdiction. It is pretty bizarre that Thessaloniki is not part of the Church of Greece but falls directly under Constantinople.

Platina · Oct 18, 2018

Yeah, isn't it strange that the EP is going along with Ukraine's shouts of "independent state-independent Church" and yet, he has like 50 dioceses in Greece? Hmmmm....

Dorothea · Oct 18, 2018

buzuxi02 said:
They still believe Hellenism = Orthodoxy. They think Orthodox Christian's need to remain on the Hellenic plantation.

Not all Greeks think that.

buzuxi02 · Oct 18, 2018

Dorothea said:
Not all Greeks think that.

I don't. But if you look at most arguments in favor of the EP actions they come from guys with Greek last names who give a political argument not a canonical argument based on ecclesiology. It usually goes like this Russians are scary because they are numerous stay with our Greek patriarch who is universal.

Dorothea · Oct 18, 2018

buzuxi02 said:
I don't. But if you look at most arguments in favor of the EP actions they come from guys with Greek last names who give a political argument not a canonical argument based on ecclesiology. It usually goes like this Russians are scary because they are numerous stay with our Greek patriarch who is universal.

Yes. I’ve seen that in certain Greek circles. I’ve been told it has to do with first or second generation Greeks and certain particular places/institutions.

buzuxi02 · Oct 18, 2018

Dorothea said:
Yes. I’ve seen that in certain Greek circles. I’ve been told it has to do with first or second generation Greeks and certain particular places/institutions.

You also have western ukranians who have a vested emotional interest in this issue so leaving them aside there are basically two types defending EP. First NGO sponsored trolls making pretend they are Orthodox on internet or propaganda western media hit pieces.
These are easy to spot as they know nothing about Orthodox or its history and just disseminate talking points. The western hit pieces are all about "scary" Putin and how recognition of Denisenko will make him go away.
Then you have the Greeks, most are in denial and try to find loopholes in the canons to justify these decisions which evolves into papism. Others are greek westernized liberals who want to keep Greek hegemony over Orthodoxy and keep the Russians at bay and they make a Greek vs Russia argument pitting peoples emotions by making them choose a side in identity politics . Just a few months ago the Russian side included the Ukranians and most other Slavs as well!

gzt · Oct 18, 2018

buzuxi02 said:
You also have western ukranians who have a vested emotional interest in this issue so leaving them aside there are basically two types defending EP. First NGO sponsored trolls making pretend they are Orthodox on internet or propaganda western media hit pieces.

LOL

Christina C · Oct 19, 2018

How the BBC is reporting this:

Russian Orthodox Church severs links with Constantinople Russian Church breaks with Orthodox body

Orthodox Church split: Five reasons why it matters Five reasons why Orthodox Church split matters

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Oct 19, 2018

KernelPanic · Oct 19, 2018

Someone posted a picture of one of the churches that Filaret visited. It has some "unique" icons.

http://vidomosti.kiev.ua/images/stories//2018/10/12.10.18/DSC_5147.JPG

Original article: Патріарх Філарет відвідав Свято-Преображенський собор м. Кременця на Тернопільщині — Київські єпархіальні відомості

Translation from Yandex:

October 12, 2018, during an archpastoral visit to the region, his Holiness Patriarch of Kyiv and all Rus-Ukraine Filaret visited the Holy Transfiguration Cathedral of the city of Kremenets in Ternopil oblast.

In the beautiful temple of his Holiness consecrated the icon of St. great Martyr. George – the patron Saint of the fighters for independence of Ukraine. The Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate accompanied by the Patriarchal vicar, Metropolitan of Pereyaslav and Belotserkovsky Epiphanius, Metropolitan of Lutsk and Volyn Michael, the Manager of a diocese, Archbishop of Ternopil and Kremenets of Nestor, Bishop of Ternopil and Terebovlia Paul. In the temple, together with the lords prayed the priests of the district, and believers.

Painter Vasily Stetsko depicted next to the icon of St. great Martyr. Yuri Victor of the revolution of Dignity, the Heroes of the Heavenly hundred, the Ukrainian military, volunteers, chaplains, military doctors, patriots. The idea of the icon – "God With us. For us Ukraine".

After the consecration of the unique icons of the Patriarch addressing the audience said: "Without the Ukrainian Church independent from Moscow, our state would not have a solid spiritual Foundation. Due to the fact that there is a Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate and the other Christian, Patriotic Church, we have today an independent state. And when we have a single Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Russia will have no access to Ukraine. And then our government will affirm, strengthen and be a beacon of peace in the East of Ukraine", – said his Holiness.

In conclusion, his Holiness Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian defenders and benefactors of the temple high Church awards.

Just....yuck. A blessing of nationalistic propaganda as "icons" just rubs me in all the wrong ways.

TheLostCoin · Oct 19, 2018

KernelPanic said:
Someone posted a picture of one of the churches that Filaret visited. It has some "unique" icons.

http://vidomosti.kiev.ua/images/stories//2018/10/12.10.18/DSC_5147.JPG

Original article: Патріарх Філарет відвідав Свято-Преображенський собор м. Кременця на Тернопільщині — Київські єпархіальні відомості

Translation from Yandex:

Just....yuck. A blessing of nationalistic propaganda as "icons" just rubs me in all the wrong ways.

"This schism has nothing to do with nationalism - it's simply restoring Constantinople's legitimate rights to Ukraine over a legitimate Church."

Church of Constantinople officially recognizes the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate

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