Physical Kingdom Problems

DavidPT · Oct 17, 2018

Dave L said:
Didn't Paul say all the promises of God, including Ezekiel's are Yes in Christ? That is, Jesus fulfills all the promises in himself, and only through him will broken off apostate Jews become members of Israel again.

I understand all of that and don't disagree, yet none of that explains why God Himself, who is not a liar, would then declare things that are to come to pass, do not really come to pass. So why did He declare they would come to pass then? What point was He trying to make if He never was actually intending any of these thing to come to pass?

BABerean2 · Oct 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
Could you remind me where you are placing the time of the NHNE and NJ in Revelation 21-22? Was it before or after the 2nd coming that you place this?

I notice that you acknowledge that these would be unbelievers going up to Jerusalem. That's a plus.

Here's some of my line of thinking, though I expect you to disagree since you apparently don't think a thousand years fits with a time post the 2nd coming.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The first thing to note, the context makes mention of the NHNE. Verse 23 sounds somewhat like Zechariah 14:16 to me. Notice in verse 24----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me. What would be the nearest antecedent of they in verse 24? Would it not be all flesh that shall come to worship before Him?

Try looking at it like the following then.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Why would they be going forth, looking upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Him, unless it was a stark reminder and a dire warning, that if you, too, transgress against me, you, too, will end up like these? Would this threat and reminder be in affect for all of eternity though, or just a small portion of it, say a thousand years?

And then we have the following to add, which also appears to transpire during the NHNE.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

How can that be fulfilled after the following has already been fulfilled, meaning Revelation 20:7-15? Those in Isaiah 60:12 their fate would be the LOF judgment, obviously, except the LOF judgment would be history and never something that's ever going to happen again once Revelation 20:7-15 fulfilled. What I'm getting at then, if Isaiah 60:12 is meaning during the NHNE, and that the NNE are meaning after Christ returns, then so does Revelation 20:7-15 have to be meaning after Christ returns, in order to fulfill Isaiah 60:12 before the LOF judgments are past history to never happen again for forever.

It seems to me none of the all flesh in Isaiah 66:23 would be including immortal saints though. They would already be before Him worshiping Him, thus wouldn't need to come and do that since they would already be doing that by dwelling where He is dwelling, that being in the NJ.

Does your Bible have a New Testament?

If it does, read the New Testament to find out the proper interpretation of the Old Testament.

Luk 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

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claninja · Oct 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
Do you have an explanation for something such as the following then?

Ezekiel 44:17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.

DavidPT said:
Ezekiel 44:26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.

These are not easy questions, nor is Ezekiel an easy book. It is very difficult, in fact. However, the NT does tell us that "food and drink, and various washings and regulations of the body" were only UNTIL the time of Christ. Why?

Hebrews 9:9-11 According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed UNTIL the time of reformation. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come

Because they were only a shadow of Christ, who is/was/will be the true reality
Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities

Let's look at the uses for linen garments in the NT:
Matthew 22:11-12 But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.

Revelation 19:7-9 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory,for the marriage of the Lamb has come,and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

DavidPT said:
The first thing to note is who the speaker is here. Is it not God Himself? And didn't God say----And it shall come to pass---which would also have to include what He said in verse 26 and 27 as well? So how is it that God can declare something shall come to pass, except it never actually comes to pass without making God out to be a liar in the process? Why would He say these things shall come to pass if He already knew they wouldn't? I thought God wasn't capable of lying? And how is it possible to be misunderstanding what God was meaning in verse 26-27? He intended for one to take those things literally, Didn't He?

Notice that James quotes Amos 9 as fulfilled. In order for the rest of mankind, even the gentiles, to seek the Lord, David's fallen tent must first be rebuilt. Because the gentiles are being saved, James states the words of Amos 9 are in agreement. This means, that by this point, David's Fallen tent was already rebuilt.
Acts 15:14-18 Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
“ ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it, that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ b —things known from long ago.

I don't see a physical tent of David that was rebuilt in Jerusalem, but I do believe that Jesus rose again and ascended to the true throne where He fulfilled God's promise to David.
Acts 2:30-31 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption

I wonder where Paul got the idea of a spiritual temple from?
Ephesians 2:21-22 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

What OT scriptures did the disciples believe about a spiritual temple?
John 2:22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

DavidPT said:
BTW, if I'm not careful here, I might end up talking myself out of concluding no animal sacrificing ever again. How should one reason the things above, the fact God is the speaker, and He very clearly and plainly indicated these things shall come to pass? Do you have any other examples where God declared something would come to pass, but that it never did?

Everything God declares comes to pass. Just not the way everyone expects. Jesus was not what the Jews expected based on their interpretation of the messiah. He was heavenly, not earthly, thus they did not understand.

Jesus used the earthly picture of being born to describe believing in Christ. Nicodemus did not understand.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things

The law was only an earthly picture to describe the true heavenly reality: Jesus. If one does not understand the earthly (the law), they will not understand (the heavenly) who it pointed to.

So what was the purpose of the temple and all its ceremonial regulations?

DavidPT · Oct 17, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Does your Bible have a New Testament?

If it does, read the New Testament to find out the proper interpretation of the Old Testament.

Luk 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

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I take the time to type all of that out, and instead of working through these things with me since you obviously disagree with my conclusions, you post this instead. And what you posted is helpful exactly how? Do you think the OT was not inspired then, and that the NT trumps the OT, and that the OT should be discarded now that we have the NT? Do you not do basically the same things unbelieving Jews do? Do they not rely on only one testament alone, rather than both testaments together? How is that working for them?

claninja · Oct 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
Could you remind me where you are placing the time of the NHNE and NJ in Revelation 21-22? Was it before or after the 2nd coming that you place this?

after the great white throne judgment, when the old heavens and earth flee:
Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

DavidPT said:
Was it before or after the 2nd coming that you place this?

After

DavidPT said:
I notice that you acknowledge that these would be unbelievers going up to Jerusalem. That's a plus.

considering there are leaves for "healing" the nations in NHNE, there must be something that needs healing still.

Revelation 22:2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

Also sin still exists outside the New Jerusalem:
Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

BABerean2 · Oct 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
Do you not do basically the same things unbelieving Jews do? Do they not rely on only one testament alone, rather than both testaments together? How is that working for them?

Actually, if you ignore the words of Christ in Luke 24:25-27, or in Matthew 25:1-13, or Matthew 25:31-46, or in any other part of the New Testament, then it would be you who is doing what the Jews have done.

Some modern Jews say God does not have a son.
They must ignore Psalm 2 to make their viewpoint work.
Like almost all false doctrines, it is a doctrine built on ignorance.

.

corinth77777 · Oct 17, 2018

Dave L said:
Here's what I believe in this matter:

Jesus now sits on David's Throne since his resurrection/ascension Acts 2:29–33. This is the "kingdom" symbolized by the Jewish "Millennial Kingdom" Revelation 20:2 that Jesus said was "at hand" Matthew 3:2, "within you" Luke 17:21, "not of this world" John 18:36 and "comes without observation" Luke 17:20, being spiritual in nature.

And one must be born again to see it John 3:3. It is the kingdom many still look for physically in Premillennialism and Dispensationalism even though it has been here unnoticed by them, and in heaven since Pentecost 33 AD. Where Jesus remains on David's Throne/God's Throne 1 Chronicles 29:23 until the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world 1 Corinthians 15:21–26.

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration [New Heavens and Earth] when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28)

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His face the earth and the heavens fled away, and no place was found for them.” (Revelation 20:11)

““When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.” (Matthew 25:31)

Do you see the Kingdom? If yes, what do you see?

corinth77777 · Oct 17, 2018

DavidPT said:
If you are meaning future from now, it seems to me, that in Revelation 20:4, these are doing exactly that, sitting with Jesus in His throne, where you apparently admit is still future----And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. How can that not equal sitting with Christ in His throne?

So the question is are those who are in Christ seated with Him now on His throne?

DavidPT · Oct 17, 2018

corinth77777 said:
So the question is are those who are in Christ seated with Him now on His throne?

In order to answer that, it first needs to be determined when Christ sits on His throne. Currently He is set down with His Father in His Father's throne.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Two different thrones in view here----in my throne---my Father in his throne.

When does Scripture indicate Jesus sits in His throne?

Here for one.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Has this part been fulfilled yet----When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him? No. And the fact that what I have underlined begins with 'then', that cannot already be true before the parts I have don't have underlined are true first. It seems to me then, that if Revelation 20:4 equals sitting with Christ in His throne, and that Matthew 25:31 hasn't even been fulfilled yet, that places the timing of the reigning with Christ a thousand years, post the fulfillment of Matthew 25:31. So to answer your question then, those who are in Christ are not seated with Him now on His throne, because Christ Himself is yet to be seated on His throne, as demonstrated by Matthew 25:31.

Think about it like this maybe. Didn't Jesus have to humble Himself first, and suffer many things, then after enduring those things, He was then highly exalted? If that was good enough for Him, why shouldn't that procedure be good enough for us us well, that we first humble ourselves, endure many things, and at the end of all of it, we, too, are exalted and rewarded at that time?

DavidPT · Oct 17, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Actually, if you ignore the words of Christ in Luke 24:25-27, or in Matthew 25:1-13, or Matthew 25:31-46, or in any other part of the New Testament, then it would be you who is doing what the Jews have done.

Some modern Jews say God does not have a son.
They must ignore Psalm 2 to make their viewpoint work.
Like almost all false doctrines, it is a doctrine built on ignorance.

.

Unlike you though, in this case anyway, I am forming my conclusions based on both testamants. You are forming your conclusions based on one testament alone. If one inspired testament indicates there will be unsaved survivors, then that's how the other inspired testament should be interpreted to be meaning. But you would rather have these testaments contradicting one another, apparently. Beccause it is a contradiction if one testament is telling us there will be some unsaved survivors remaining, but that the other testament is telling us there will be zero unsaved survivors remaining. No contradiction could possibly be of the truth.

DavidPT · Oct 17, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Actually, if you ignore the words of Christ in Luke 24:25-27, or in Matthew 25:1-13, or Matthew 25:31-46, or in any other part of the New Testament, then it would be you who is doing what the Jews have done.

Some modern Jews say God does not have a son.
They must ignore Psalm 2 to make their viewpoint work.
Like almost all false doctrines, it is a doctrine built on ignorance.

.

When I indicated you do similar to what unbelieving Jews do, I was meaning you are basically forming your conclusions on only one testament, rather than both testaments combined. Even Jesus, in the NT, told the reader to go to the OT in order to gain more clarity as to the AOD He was referring to at the time. Some apparently think that it is only the NT that sheds light on the OT, which is true except for the only part. The OT sheds light on the NT as well. IOW both testaments help to shed light on each other. So it's a both thing, in regards to shedding light on things.

BABerean2 · Oct 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
When I indicated you do similar to what unbelieving Jews do, I was meaning you are basically forming your conclusions on only one testament, rather than both testaments combined. Even Jesus, in the NT, told the reader to go to the OT in order to gain more clarity as to the AOD He was referring to at the time. Some apparently think that it is only the NT that sheds light on the OT, which is true except for the only part. The OT sheds light on the NT as well. IOW both testaments help to shed light on each other. So it's a both thing, in regards to shedding light on things.

I agree 100% that all of God's Word is the key to our understanding.

The Bible is a book about Jesus Christ, starting with the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15, and Abraham's seed in Genesis 12:3, and David's seed, later in the Old Testament.
Matthew 1:1 reveals this fact.
John 1:1 is my favorite verse in the Bible.

The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9, reveal that the baby born in a manger is the Messiah of the Hebrew scriptures.

I apologize David if I have been to hard on you.
Sometimes my patience is not what is should be.

Many false doctrines are built upon an interpretation of the Old Testament that must ignore what we find in the New Testament.

There are many good, honest, Christians who believe that Christ will have an earthly reign of 1,000 years after His Second Coming.
You are one of them.

I love you, Brother.

.

Dave L · Oct 18, 2018

corinth77777 said:
Do you see the Kingdom? If yes, what do you see?

The kingdom is spiritual and invisible. But we see the evidence for it in our hearts. And in the world around us as we learn to identify God's hand in all that happens in the world. The best way to do this is to define any topic that comes to mind from the New Testament. And then you can pick it out in the world around you according to that description.

Some examples are: In the NT, Jesus, and believers in him, are biblical Israel. So OT prophecies about Israel refer to him and us. The restoration of Israel happens on the last day in the resurrection (restoration of believers) in the New Heavens and earth (documentation available). Many golden age prophecies find fulfillment here now in the church and in heaven, and also in the new heavens and earth. Jesus is the Temple just as we are according to Paul. God rules every nation and the universe. So we see the kingdom here too because Jesus is God. And especially important: all the promises of God are yes in Jesus. So all OT prophecies and promises find better fulfillment in Jesus than what they originally forecast in limited physical concepts.

Dave L · Oct 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
I understand all of that and don't disagree, yet none of that explains why God Himself, who is not a liar, would then declare things that are to come to pass, do not really come to pass. So why did He declare they would come to pass then? What point was He trying to make if He never was actually intending any of these thing to come to pass?

All that God promises is Yes in Jesus. Fulfilled in better ways than originally forecast using limited physical concepts. Example: Jesus Is Israel, so the land of Israel extends far beyond Canaan. It includes the whole world as promised to Abraham and the New Heavens and earth.

DavidPT · Oct 18, 2018

Dave L said:
All that God promises is Yes in Jesus. Fulfilled in better ways than originally forecast using limited physical concepts. Example: Jesus Is Israel, so the land of Israel extends far beyond Canaan. It includes the whole world as promised to Abraham and the New Heavens and earth.

I doubt in this lifetime I ever grasp what you are meaning by Jesus is Israel. I think you may have tried explaining it to me in the past, and if so, I apparently still failed to grasp what you are meaning by this. In the OT there is clearly land containing literal borders in literal regions, that are promised to His people the Jews. The texts clearly indicate this promised land is where their fathers have dwelt. Therefore this land promised has to contain literal borders in literal regions since it obviously did when their fathers dwelt there. One can't have this land meaning land with literal borders in literal regions, when their fathers dwelt there, and then have this same land in question meaning the entire world sometime in the future. Either God said what He meant, meant what He said, or that He didn't. You apparently subscribe to the latter.

Dave L · Oct 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
I doubt in this lifetime I ever grasp what you are meaning by Jesus is Israel. I think you may have tried explaining it to me in the past, and if so, I apparently still failed to grasp what you are meaning by this. In the OT there is clearly land containing literal borders in literal regions, that are promised to His people the Jews. The texts clearly indicate this promised land is where their fathers have dwelt. Therefore this land promised has to contain literal borders in literal regions since it obviously did when their fathers dwelt there. One can't have this land meaning land with literal borders in literal regions, when their fathers dwelt there, and then have this same land in question meaning the entire world sometime in the future. Either God said what He meant, meant what He said, or that He didn't. You apparently subscribe to the latter.

Jesus Is Israel = the land of Israel covers the whole world to whom the promises apply.

claninja · Oct 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
Here's some of my line of thinking, though I expect you to disagree since you apparently don't think a thousand years fits with a time post the 2nd coming.

I believe the 1000 years of revelation 20 is prior to the 2nd coming.

DavidPT said:
The first thing to note, the context makes mention of the NHNE. Verse 23 sounds somewhat like Zechariah 14:16 to me.

I agree. Especially because I believe the Jerusalem of Zechariah 14:11 is the New Jerusalem.

DavidPT said:
. Notice in verse 24----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me. What would be the nearest antecedent of they in verse 24? Would it not be all flesh that shall come to worship before Him?

I agree. I also believe the Greek Septuagint version of Zechariah 14 also supports your point of the similarities with Isaiah 60 and 66. Notice the Septuagint version does not mention "no rain" instead it states that those who do not come up to Jerusalem to worship will be "added to the others" (destroyed).

Zechariah 14:17 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever of all the families of the earth shall not come up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the Lord Almighty, even these shall be added to the others.

DavidPT said:
Why would they be going forth, looking upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Him, unless it was a stark reminder and a dire warning, that if you, too, transgress against me, you, too, will end up like these?

God uses examples of disobedience and punishment for his people's benefit.
1 Corinthians 10:6-11 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” a We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test Christ, b as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

DavidPT said:
Would this threat and reminder be in affect for all of eternity though, or just a small portion of it, say a thousand years?

Considering I believe this is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, It's been longer than 1,000 years. I am still reminded of the destruction of Jerusalem, which was terrifying.

DavidPT said:
Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

How can that be fulfilled after the following has already been fulfilled, meaning Revelation 20:7-15?

How can nations perish AFTER the final judgment?

How can nations still need healing after the final judgment?

Revelation 22:2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

How can their be sinners outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and Earth?
Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Notice the Bride (New Jerusalem/Body of Christ) states "come!" If unbelievers don't exist after the final judgment, who is the bride talking to?
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

DavidPT said:
What I'm getting at then, if Isaiah 60:12 is meaning during the NHNE, and that the NNE are meaning after Christ returns, then so does Revelation 20:7-15 have to be meaning after Christ returns, in order to fulfill Isaiah 60:12 before the LOF judgments are past history to never happen again for forever.

I slightly agree and disagree. I agree that unbelievers still exist in the NHNE because of revelation 22 (see verses posted above). But I disagree that the NHNE come before the final judgment.

The NHNE come AFTER the final judgment because of 2 peter 3

The ungodly are destroyed when the heavens and earth pass away
2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

The heavens and earth pass away on the day of the Lord
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. a

When the heavens and earth pass away, God creates the New heavens and earth
2 Peter 3:12 That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

2 Peter 3 matches up with revelation 20:11-21:1
revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea

DavidPT said:
It seems to me none of the all flesh in Isaiah 66:23 would be including immortal saints though. They would already be before Him worshiping Him, thus wouldn't need to come and do that since they would already be doing that by dwelling where He is dwelling, that being in the NJ.

All of this comes down to what you believe the NHNE and New Jerusalem actually are.

claninja · Oct 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
I doubt in this lifetime I ever grasp what you are meaning by Jesus is Israel. I think you may have tried explaining it to me in the past, and if so, I apparently still failed to grasp what you are meaning by this. In the OT there is clearly land containing literal borders in literal regions, that are promised to His people the Jews. The texts clearly indicate this promised land is where their fathers have dwelt. Therefore this land promised has to contain literal borders in literal regions since it obviously did when their fathers dwelt there. One can't have this land meaning land with literal borders in literal regions, when their fathers dwelt there, and then have this same land in question meaning the entire world sometime in the future. Either God said what He meant, meant what He said, or that He didn't. You apparently subscribe to the latter.

Here is what he means

Both Israel and Jesus were called out of Egypt
Deuteronomy 6:21 then you are to tell him, “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand
Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son

Both Israel and Jesus were tempted in the wilderness
Deuteronomy 8:2 Remember that these forty years the LORD your God led you all the way in the wilderness, so that He might humble you and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep His commandments.
Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Where Israel failed the test of manna and grumbled, Jesus fulfilled
Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord
Matthew 4:3-4 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written,“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Where Israel failed and put God to the test, Jesus fulfilled
Deuteronomy 6:16 You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah
Matthew 4:5-7 Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you,a nd “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’

Where Israel failed and worshipped false gods, Jesus fulfilled
Deuteronmy 6:13 It is the Lord your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear. You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you—
Matthew 4:8-11 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.

Where Israel failed to be the vine, Jesus was/is the true vine
Jeremiah 2:21-22 Yet I planted you a choice vine, wholly of pure seed. How then have you turned degenerate and become a wild vine?
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.

Where Israel failed to be a light for the nations, Jesus was/is that light for the world.
Isaiah 49:6 I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”
John 8:12 Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Old covenant Israel was only a shadow of the true Israel, that is Jesus Christ.

DavidPT · Oct 18, 2018

claninja said:
Here is what he means

Both Israel and Jesus were called out of Egypt
Deuteronomy 6:21 then you are to tell him, “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand
Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son

Both Israel and Jesus were tempted in the wilderness
Deuteronomy 8:2 Remember that these forty years the LORD your God led you all the way in the wilderness, so that He might humble you and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep His commandments.
Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Where Israel failed the test of manna and grumbled, Jesus fulfilled
Deuteronomy 8:3 And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord
Matthew 4:3-4 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written,“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Where Israel failed and put God to the test, Jesus fulfilled
Deuteronomy 6:16 You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested him at Massah
Matthew 4:5-7 Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you,a nd “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’

Where Israel failed and worshipped false gods, Jesus fulfilled
Deuteronmy 6:13 It is the Lord your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear. You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you—
Matthew 4:8-11 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.

Where Israel failed by the vine, Jesus was the true vine
Jeremiah 2:21-22 Yet I planted you a choice vine, wholly of pure seed. How then have you turned degenerate and become a wild vine?
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.

Where Israel failed to be a light for the nations, Jesus was that light for the world.
Isaiah 49:6 I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”
John 8:12 Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Old covenant Israel was only a shadow of the true Israel, that is Jesus Christ.

I understand your point here. Yet it seems to me then that this doesn't make Jesus Israel but makes Jesus the remedy for Israel. To me, Jesus is Israel, and Jesus is the remedy for Israel, this sounds like two different ideas.

claninja · Oct 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
I understand your point here. Yet it seems to me then that this doesn't make Jesus Israel but makes Jesus the remedy for Israel. To me, Jesus is Israel, and Jesus is the remedy for Israel, this sounds like two different ideas.

The law (genesis, exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) is the shadow of Christ. He is both it's true reality and its perfect fulfillment. The law is only a picture/a school master for children about Jesus

Let me give you an example:

To see the kingdom of God, you must be born again. Your argument is similar to Nicodemus: "how can one go through their mother's womb again?" You still don't seem to be understanding that the law was only an earthly picture for Christ. The Law testifies to and was written about Jesus. He fulfilled it perfectly.

Jesus is the true reality of the scriptures
John 5:39-40 You study c the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

What is marriage? an earthly symbol of a man and woman becoming one flesh that represents the true reality of the church and Christ. While the marriage of man and woman is a real physical thing, it is only a temporary and fleshly picture of the true spiritual nature of Christ and the church. The true meaning of marriage is Christ and the Church. So to is the law and Christ.

The NT scriptures, as I have posted above, reflect and testify that Christ is the true Israel.

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