Understanding the Liturgy

YCGP said:

My aunt thinks it is appropriate to convert to RC like my mother's side of the family since I cannot understand anything that happens in the liturgy. Her argument is if I was RC I would at least be able to understand the mass.

I know many of you do not speak the language spoken during liturgy... What's your opinion on this?

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So go to an English speaking OCA parish. Liturgy is spoken in many, many, languages and always has.

YCGP said:

My aunt thinks it is appropriate to convert to RC like my mother's side of the family since I cannot understand anything that happens in the liturgy. Her argument is if I was RC I would at least be able to understand the mass.

I know many of you do not speak the language spoken during liturgy... What's your opinion on this?

Click to expand...

or.. maybe find a parish that does speak your language??

Our Liturgy is about half/half Greek/English with different parts spoken in the various language from week to week.
e.g. the litany may be 1st part Greek this week, English next week..

Speaking only for me, being exposed to the Greek has been beneficial in my personal growth, spiritually and intellectually ymmv.

go to an English speaking parish. get English Liturgy books.

plus, even if you can understand what is said in the Roman church, it doesn't matter if they are in error.

Ditto, you can easily get a liturgy book in your language and follow along. Many Romanians at my parish, where Liturgy is in English, do this.

OR - check out an OCA parish. or another English-language parish. And still look at a liturgy book to follow along at first.

YCGP said:

My aunt thinks it is appropriate to convert to RC like my mother's side of the family since I cannot understand anything that happens in the liturgy. Her argument is if I was RC I would at least be able to understand the mass.

I know many of you do not speak the language spoken during liturgy... What's your opinion on this?

Click to expand...

Until Vatican ii the mass were held in Latin which was a language few people understood at least in any depth, should that disqualify the validity of all of the masses held prior to 1962?

I've been to one vernacular DL and I loved it to be honest, absolutely loved it. It's under the EP so I won't go there anymore , but all the other (not to many, but still) DLs I've been to have been in church slavonic. Needless to say I understand nada, but still I pray and I venerate the icons and just enjoy the choir in the church.
Point is, I dont need to understand the liturgy in order to participate in the worship. It sure is an advantage, but it's not a requirement.

Remember that the Roman church were more like the Orthodox church when she held latin mass. Back in the days when she did there was few churches that has pews and this more modern day style.
People moved around the church and venerated, lit candles and prayed while the celebrant prayed mostly silently at the altar.

Dont choose romanism over Orthodoxy due to this.

If I may be permitted

What language does your Parish use ?

Speaking for myself - I was in a Ukrainian speaking parish for over 12 years - English was not tolerated there. I used a bi-lingual English/Ukrainian copy of Liturgy . I learned to sing Liturgy in Ukrainian , I also, at times, chanted the Epistle in Ukrainian. I still don't speak it or understand it but I knew exactly what was happening during Liturgy.

Now I'm in an English usage Parish - and I have to admit I'm enjoying using English BUT I could also cope with Liturgy in Slavonic , and French and did so on more than one occasion.

Try and get hold of a bi-lingual copy of the Liturgy - that way you will be able to read each prayer and understand the depth of the meaning.

ArmyMatt said:

go to an English speaking parish. get English Liturgy books.

plus, even if you can understand what is said in the Roman church, it doesn't matter if they are in error.

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Father with all due respect I think we need to realize that many people find other aspects more important when choosing a church than theology which obviously is sad. For lots of people it's a question of distance from their home, westerness end other trivial things that weight far heavier than correct dogmas.

I find such attitudes to be very foreign, but still I can understand it to some extent.

Knocking On Heavens Door said:

Until Vatican ii the mass were held in Latin which was a language few people understood at least in any depth, should that disqualify the validity of all of the masses held prior to 1962?

I've been to one vernacular DL and I loved it to be honest, absolutely loved it. It's under the EP so I won't go there anymore , but all the other (not to many, but still) DLs I've been to have been in church slavonic. Needless to say I understand nada, but still I pray and I venerate the icons and just enjoy the choir in the church.
Point is, I dont need to understand the liturgy in order to participate in the worship. It sure is an advantage, but it's not a requirement.

Remember that the Roman church were more like the Orthodox church when she held latin mass. Back in the days when she did there was few churches that has pews and this more modern day style.
People moved around the church and venerated, lit candles and prayed while the celebrant prayed mostly silently at the altar.

Dont choose romanism over Orthodoxy due to this.

Click to expand...

By the way... unless you are under the mp, you can still go to any EP parish...

archer75 said:

By the way... unless you are under the mp, you can still go to any EP parish...

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As a catechumen to be I really shouldn't mingle anywhere but the place I'm interested in converting to, which is the Moscow Patriarchate.
Later on I may very well go to DL in the EP as a fellowship kind of thing, but after some consideration I'm not interested in doxing to the EP.

I’ve had past experiences in a church where I didn’t understand the language (Greek) and couldn’t find a parish that used English. It’s hard, and I hope that isn’t the situation you are in! Like everyone else said hopefully you can find a church that does the liturgy in English, but that could be in any jurisdiction I believe! So don’t lose heart if there are no OCA churches near you. Our ROCOR parish uses mostly English but there are some parts they do both English and Slavonic. Our priest is an English-speaking convert, and I miss nothing by not understanding the Slavonic. I’ll also add that I couldn’t tell if this would be the case based solely on the website so I’m really glad I actually gave it a try.

To tell you the truth, I was not that worried about this until now. I thought it was more of a Hierarchical brotherly spat. However, now, after thinking of the possibilities, I am much more concerned. I am thinking this may be the catalyst for the birth of a Nationalist Orthodox Church...in a bad way.

When emissaries from Kiev were sent out to investigate the neighboring religions they came back with this report:

‘When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgar bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good. Then we went among the Germans, and saw them performing many ceremonies in their temples; but we beheld no glory there. Then we went to Greece, and the Greeks (including the Emperor himself) led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendor or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We only know that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty"....

They did not know the languages but it still stirred their spirits. Saying, 'we know God dwells there'.

If you attend a DL under the EP, keep it on the QT so OCA won’t put you on KP and you end up MIA in the former CCCP with VIP’s like the MP.

archer75 said:

By the way... unless you are under the mp, you can still go to any EP parish...

Click to expand...

gurneyhalleck1 said:

If you attend a DL under the EP, keep it on the QT so OCA won’t put you on KP and you end up MIA in the former CCCP with VIP’s like the MP.

Click to expand...

Robin Williams would be proud

I like English liturgies. I can understand and love Arabic liturgies. I would love to see a Spanish liturgy one day. Between Slavonic and Greek I'm more "at home" with Slavonic because the music and readings are more similar to the Anglicized Slavonic style music of the OCA. I can't stand a Greek liturgy. And more than anything I can't stand a choir, of any language, that spends five minutes to sing three "Lord have mercy"s in a foreign language and then emotionlessly speeds through the same amount in English.

There was a German gentleman at my old parish named Sergei. His wife was Russian-born in Serbia, God bless their souls. He did not speak Russian nor knew Slavonic, but he still became Orthodox anyway. We were talking about languages after Pascha one year and he said, "No matter what language the words of the Liturgy are in, they will bring you holiness."

YCGP, I see in your profile that you're in Canada. There are English parishes there. There's even French ones. When I was learning Arabic I had the luxury of alternating between the 50/50 Arabic/English parish and the 100% English OCA parish. If there's an English parish that you can get to semi-regularly, go there once in a while. Even if you need to carpool or make a weekend trip of it once a month or two months. Yes, it is the same Liturgy and Orthodoxy no matter the language, but as a military person I'm going to steal a line from a movie and say, "There's no place like home".