Who is the woman in Revelations 12?

Major1

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Eve had not given birth yet. Whatever physical pain she experienced would not have a known meaning. It's followed with "yet your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you. What does that have to do with physical pain of childbirth? If we consider that sin is the cause of increased pain of having children we can think that a mother's pain is increased when her children are born in sin. That pain was realized when Cain killed Abel. In that light it makes more sense that her yearning would be for her husban because he shares her pain and she is utterly alone without him. That all happened to Adam and Eve and he did rule over her by not having another child until she was ready to accept his authority. Listen to his voice again. The reward.

Genesis 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Mary bore the pain in it's entirety having given up her Son to the sinful world He was born into.

I can not agree with you and in fact you have missed the whole point I was making.

You may wish to consult a Catholic commentary on the Scriptures for insight into these and other interpretations taught by the RCC. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the virgin birth was also a painless birth, without defining it dogmatically. However, as its inclusion in the Catechism of the Council of Trent affirms, it is a logical conclusion from the Church’s definitive teaching regarding Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth:

"To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain."

The RCC seems to have removed Revelation 12:2 from their Bibles as they teach and many believe that MARY Is the Woman of Revelation 12.

Rev. 12:2:
"She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. "


IF the woman is Mary then what is the explanation of her "Being in PAIN"??????
 
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Eloy Craft

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IF the woman is Mary then what is the explanation of her "Being in PAIN"??????
The child born to her was dying an innocent man in the most cruel way in the hands of sinful men. Her pain in childbearing is multiplied because He is born in a world of sin. Mary bore the pain of eve's punishment fully at the foot of the cross. I know what the Catholic church teaches. I'm Catholic
 
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Major1

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I can not agree with you and in fact you have missed the whole point I was making.

You may wish to consult a Catholic commentary on the Scriptures for insight into these and other interpretations taught by the RCC. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the virgin birth was also a painless birth, without defining it dogmatically. However, as its inclusion in the Catechism of the Council of Trent affirms, it is a logical conclusion from the Church’s definitive teaching regarding Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth:

"To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain."

The RCC seems to have removed Revelation 12:2 from their Bibles as they teach and many believe that MARY Is the Woman of Revelation 12.

Rev. 12:2:
"She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. "


IF the woman is Mary then what is the explanation of her "Being in PAIN"??????
Ooops.
 
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Major1

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The child born to her was dying an innocent man in the most cruel way in the hands of sinful men. Her pain in childbearing is multiplied because He is born in a world of sin. Mary bore the pain of eve's punishment fully at the foot of the cross. I know what the Catholic church teaches. I'm Catholic

Unfortunately you are not addressing the point at hand. I will repeat it to you.

Church’s definitive teaching regarding Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth:

"To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain."

The RCC seems to have removed Revelation 12:2 from their Bibles as they teach and many believe that MARY Is the Woman of Revelation 12.

Rev. 12:2:
"She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. "


IF the woman is Mary which is taught by the TCC then what is the explanation of her "Being in PAIN"??????

The woman therefore in Rev. 12 can not be Mary!!!!
 
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Mountainmike

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Numerous times in the OT.

Well, "harlot" a few times, "backsliding heifer" at least once. But also "woman."

Where for instance - give an example.


(..and even if so it is long shot compared to Mary, who is referred to as Woman numerous times! )
 
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Fidelibus

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Did Mary Experience Labor Pains?

I think this article from the Catholic Exchange Editors, Dec. 24, 2002 gives a precise Catholic perspective of Rev.12:1-7.

"Greetings in Christ. We will address the issue of Mary’s having childbearing pain first, and then present what the Church teaches regarding the effects of original sin.

Regarding your first question, we can consider Revelation 12:1-7. This passage describes a woman clothed with the sun and crowned with 12 stars. Revelation 12:2 describes the woman as undergoing pangs of childbirth. You asked how the Church could use this passage in its defense of honoring Mary when the woman is described as having birth pangs. In other words, how can the Church reconcile its teaching that Mary didn’t experience labor pains with this passage from Revelation 12? Scripture is traditionally interpreted in four senses (please see our Faith Fact, Scripture Sense): literal, allegorical, moral, and anagogical. God not only teaches through words (literally), but also through the things, people, and events mentioned in scripture (see Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 115-19).

Hence, the woman in Revelation 12:2 has more than one meaning. On a most basic, literal level, we observe a woman, a child, and a dragon. However, the information conveyed indicates that these are Mary, Jesus, and the devil, respectively. In a spiritual sense, she is also Zion, Jerusalem, with her 12 stars, bringing forth the messianic era with the pangs of childbirth (cf. Isaiah 26:17). The woman is also the Church who gives birth to children of God (Mary herself is a figure or image of the Church). Mary is also the Mother of the Church that was born on Calvary, clearly in Mary’s pain (cf. Luke 2:34-35; Catechism, no. 766).

Thus, the Blessed Virgin Mother does not have pangs at Jesus’ miraculous birth into the world; rather, her “birth pangs” are deferred to the suffering she shares with Him on the Cross, as he is born into eternal glory. Indeed, Jesus takes up His throne only after he is glorified through His victory on Calvary. By sharing in her Son’s suffering, Mary also becomes the Mother of all His followers, i.e., the Body of Christ (Revelation 12:17), and thus the Mother of the Church. For those who argue for a more literal interpretation of Revelation 12, saying that Mary did have such labor pains, they would also have to believe that the devil was present in Bethlehem at Jesus’ birth as a dragon, ready to devour Jesus; that Jesus was swept up to heaven to safety upon His birth; and that Mary took refuge in the wilderness because of the devil’s threat. None of this, of course, is substantiated in the infancy narratives of the gospels. Given the figurative nature of the Book of Revelation, we need to rely on the God-given Magisterium to properly interpret it (Catechism, nos. 84-87).

Through the years the Church fathers have given many enriching exegeses of this passage. You may wish to consult a Catholic commentary on the Scriptures for insight into these and other interpretations. The Church teaches that the virgin birth was also a painless birth, without defining it dogmatically. However, as its inclusion in the Catechism of the Council of Trent affirms, it is a logical conclusion from the Church’s definitive teaching regarding Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth:

To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain.

The virgin birth is that Christ miraculously passed from the uterus through the vaginal opening without altering the physical state of Mary. By way of analogy, consider that light passes through a glass window without altering the window. Mary’s miraculous birth would entail the absence of pain. The absence of labor pains is a logical conclusion from Mary’s dogmatically defined Virgin Birth. In addition, Mary’s being conceived without sin spares her from the temporal effects of original sin—including the curse of labor given to Eve and her descendants."


I found this part if the article quite interesting:

"For those who argue for a more literal interpretation of Revelation 12, saying that Mary did have such labor pains, they would also have to believe that the devil was present in Bethlehem at Jesus’ birth as a dragon, ready to devour Jesus; that Jesus was swept up to heaven to safety upon His birth; and that Mary took refuge in the wilderness because of the devil’s threat."

And that,,,, "None of this, of course, is substantiated in the infancy narratives of the gospels."

Would any Non-Catholic posters care to give their perspective on this?



Again, as the article states....."Given the figurative nature of the Book of Revelation, this is why we need to rely on the God-given Magisterium to properly interpret it." ----- (Catechism of the Catholic Church. nos. 84-87).


Have a Blessed Day
 
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Eloy Craft

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Unfortunately you are not addressing the point at hand. I will repeat it to you.

Church’s definitive teaching regarding Mary’s Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth:

"To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain."

The RCC seems to have removed Revelation 12:2 from their Bibles as they teach and many believe that MARY Is the Woman of Revelation 12.

Rev. 12:2:
"She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. "


IF the woman is Mary which is taught by the TCC then what is the explanation of her "Being in PAIN"??????

The woman therefore in Rev. 12 can not be Mary!!!!
Major, you are insisting on an earthly birth as the sole meaning of a birth within a vision of heaven. The heavenly birth and the earthly birth aren't mutually exclusive. Jesus called death entering into life. There was pain when Christ entered into eternal life. The pain of being born in a world of sin. Not just His pain is eternal in heaven but His Blessed Mother's pain is also. How else could the Prophet Simeon reveal it before hand? The old Prophet revealed the pain of the Virgin Mother at Her Son's Birth into heavenly life. It's not an either/ or thing it's a both/ and.
 
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Major1

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Major, you are insisting on an earthly birth as the sole meaning of a birth within a vision of heaven. The heavenly birth and the earthly birth aren't mutually exclusive. Jesus called death entering into life. There was pain when Christ entered into eternal life. The pain of being born in a world of sin. Not just His pain is eternal in heaven but His Blessed Mother's pain is also. How else could the Prophet Simeon reveal it before hand? The old Prophet revealed the pain of the Virgin Mother at Her Son's Birth into heavenly life. It's not an either/ or thing it's a both/ and.

Not so my friend. I am only reading what the Word of God said and believing it as it is written.

Actually, I have NO clue on what you just posted about earthly and heavenly births.

ALL men are born EARTHLY by conception. A man and a woman produce a child PHYSICALLY.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God and both were found guilty. The sentence for Eve was to have pain in child birth.

The heavenly birth is when we are "Born Again". It is the moment we accept Jesus as our Saviour and we are then declared dead to sin and made alive in Christ. There is NO physical pain involved in the Born Again process as it is a SPITITUAL event.

As the result of the ORININAL sin of Adam and Eve, God said that women would suffer pain in childbirth. There is NO Bible Scripture which says Mary was exempt from childbirth pains. NONE!

The RCC and you are saying that Mary is the woman in Rev. 12 BUT when you read the verse, it says that the "WOMAN was in the pains of childbirth".

Now that literally means that Mary CAN NOT BE THE WOMAN IN REVELATION 12.

It is just that simple.
 
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Major1

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The child born to her was dying an innocent man in the most cruel way in the hands of sinful men. Her pain in childbearing is multiplied because He is born in a world of sin. Mary bore the pain of eve's punishment fully at the foot of the cross. I know what the Catholic church teaches. I'm Catholic

You said...….
"Her pain in childbearing is multiplied because He is born in a world of sin."

That is a contraction my friend and it is exactly what I have said. Mary experienced child birth pains and that alone removes her from being the woman in Rev. 12. as it denounces the RCC doctrine of "Original Sin" and you have just confirmed that.
 
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Major1

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It's Mary, and the eagle who protects her is the John who was given to her as her son (there was a tradition seeing John as an eagle, for one because there were four accepted gospels and the fourth animal in the tetramorph is an eagle, so the fourth gospel fits to the four animal), and when she is carried away, that's a type of her assumption into Heaven.

(Btw if John was Mary's son, and not by birth, then we have a case of Mary basically "adopting" someone, so why is it impossible for the explanation of Mary's other children being not that they were conceived but adopted by her?)

Now this is a perfect example of the word....."SPINNING".

Not one single Bible truth.

Well maybe one, John.

Very frequently, when the four Evangelists are pictured in manuscripts of the Gospels, each one is accompanied by his symbolic representative – A man (or angel) accompanies Matthew, a lion accompanies Mark; an ox accompanies Luke, and an eagle accompanies John. These particular symbols correspond to the faces of the cherubim in visions found in the Biblical books of Ezekiel and Revelation.

In Ezekiel 1:10, as the prophet describes a vision of the throne-chariot of God, revealed as the sovereign Ruler of all nations, he states that each of the four living creatures moving the throne (some interpreters might say that the creatures themselves are the throne) had four faces: ……..
“Each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle.”

In Revelation 4:7, as John describes a vision of God’s heavenly throne, he states that four living creatures were there: “The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle.”

These seem to be the same angelic beings described by Ezekiel, perceived by John in a form that is different but nevertheless recognizable. Ezekiel called them cherubim; John referred to them as living creatures, or zōē, the Greek word from which we get the word “zoo.”
 
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Major1

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The pain is the result of children born in sin. That consequence for Eve was realized when Cain killed Abel. That pain was bore fully by Our Lady at the foot of the cross.

NOPE.

The pain of childbirth was the result of Adam and Eves sin.

Genesis 3:16.……….
"To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

That pain has been born by every single woman who has ever lived when she gave birth.
The cross has nothing to do with the sin of Original Sin which was the judgment of God on women because of sin.

If it did......THINK!!! Why do women still have pain in children's birth today?
 
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Phil 1:21

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Where for instance - give an example.


(..and even if so it is long shot compared to Mary, who is referred to as Woman numerous times! )
When you get the time you may want to read Ezekiel 16. It's not very flattering to Israel. Jeremiah 3:8 is another one.
 
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Eloy Craft

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The Allegory of Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and the other by a free woman. 23 One, the child of the slave, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. 24 Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children,
burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs;
for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous
than the children of the one who is married.”

28 Now you, my friends, are children of the promise, like Isaac. 29 But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the slave and her child; for the child of the slave will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.” 31 So then, friends, we are children, not of the slave but of the free woman.

Can Israel be the Woman clothed with the sun? It's not her according to St. Paul. She is Hagar now.
 
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Eloy Craft

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NOPE.

The pain of childbirth was the result of Adam and Eves sin.

Genesis 3:16.……….
"To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

That pain has been born by every single woman who has ever lived when she gave birth.
The cross has nothing to do with the sin of Original Sin which was the judgment of God on women because of sin.

If it did......THINK!!! Why do women still have pain in children's birth today?
I don't disagree
Why does this follow the pain of birth punishment?
"
yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.



Is it only about physical pain?
 
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Major1

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I don't disagree
Why does this follow the pain of birth punishment?
"
yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.



Is it only about physical pain?

Seems to me that it is.

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

There is no way to spin this Biblical and PHYSICAL fact my dear friend.

The reason why is because it was the 2nd part of the judgment of God on Eve.
She lost any authority she had when she talked to the serpant instead of her husband. NOW she will be in subjection to him.

The subjection of the woman to the man and his rule over her was a just check of that bold taking upon her, both to talk so much with the serpent and also to do as he bade her, without any privity and knowledge of her husband. And it is as much as if God should have said to her: Because thou tookest so much upon thee without advice of thy husband, hereafter thy desire shall be subject unto him, and he shall rule over thee.
Genesis 3:16 - To the woman He... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary
 
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Eloy Craft

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Seems to me that it is.

To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

There is no way to spin this Biblical and PHYSICAL fact my dear friend.

The reason why is because it was the 2nd part of the judgment of God on Eve.
She lost any authority she had when she talked to the serpant instead of her husband. NOW she will be in subjection to him.

The subjection of the woman to the man and his rule over her was a just check of that bold taking upon her, both to talk so much with the serpent and also to do as he bade her, without any privity and knowledge of her husband. And it is as much as if God should have said to her: Because thou tookest so much upon thee without advice of thy husband, hereafter thy desire shall be subject unto him, and he shall rule over thee.
Genesis 3:16 - To the woman He... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary
Thanks for posting the commentary. I enjoyed reading it. I would like to post the passage as it is in the KJV.

Genesis 3
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
 
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ChurchMilitant

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Agreed and it is not surprising to find that Catholics would look at Rev. 12 and interpret “the woman clothed with the sun” as being a reference to Mary.

Is this position correct? No, it is not.

The TCC has a very real problem when it forces Mary to be the woman in Rev. 12.

If you notice the text in verse 2 it says that she was “with child and she cried out being in labor and in pain.” This is a problem because according to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary did not inherit Original Sin.

  • CCC 491, “Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”
If you’re not familiar with the concept of Original Sin, it is “the hereditary fallen nature and moral corruption that is passed down from Adam to his descendants."

Sin entered the world through Adam as seen in Ro. 5:12. He is the first man who committed sin, and that sin is reckoned to all people as recorded in 1 Corth. 15:22 and Ro. 5:18. This means that all descendants of Adam are under the effects of original sin.
Part of the curse of the Fall that caused Original Sin is spoken of by God in Genesis 3.

  • Gen. 3:16... "To the woman He said, 'I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you shall bring forth children. Yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.'”
Notice that part of the curse is pain in childbirth. This is why women suffer during the birth process. So, when we look back to the text of Revelation 12:1-2, we see that the woman clothed with the sun is suffering birth pain. Since the Roman Catholic position is that Mary could not be suffering birth pain (because of her Immaculate Conception and no Original Sin), then these verses cannot be about Mary.

Now, everyone is welcome to disagree with me as I am no expert. But I can read and I encourage you who do disagree to read the Catholic's own CCC 491, and compare that to the Scriptures.

Now you can see that you are in disagreement with God's Word......Not me!
A few verses before that, in Genesis 3, Jesus tells Adam and Eve that there will be enmity between the serpent and the woman(Mary), and between her seed(the Incarnate Word, Jesus Christ) and his seed. St. John Chrysostom, who in the words of noted Protestant scholar James White was "one of the greatest bible commentators of the early Church" affirmed such a position when he states the woman and her seed would be enemies of the serpent, who we know from St. John's Apocalypse(as it is traditionally called) to be the devil.

The Greek word for suffering pain in child births is ódinó, which is also used 3 times in the New Testament, in Galatians 4:19, Galatians 4:27, and Rev 12:2. And in Galatians 4:27 and 4:19, it's used in a metaphorical context. There is no reason why St. John The Apostle's Apocalypse cannot therefore follow such a position.

It would also be in the consistent position of the Holy Infallible and Innerant Gospels, where for instance in St. Luke's Gospel the Prophet Simon stated that a "sword will pierce their heart so that the thoughts of many will be revealed", of course a reference to the sufferings Christ will server not only on the cross, but before that when the Sanhedrin continuously persecuted him.
 
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packermann

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It's Israel. The child is the representation of Christ (the Head) and the Church (His body) coming together.

There is a problem in seeing this as Israel. This passage sees the woman in heaven clothed in glory. But Israel has rejected Christ. It is hard to see how Israel would be given such a lofty position in heaven since Israel has rejected its Messiah. This would mean that all Jews would go to heaven apart from Christ.

Also, there are three characters in this passage - the male child, the serpent, and the woman. The first two are individuals, not groups. So it would be natural for the woman to be an individual person, too.
 
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There is a problem in seeing this as Israel. This passage sees the woman in heaven clothed in glory. But Israel has rejected Christ. It is hard to see how Israel would be given such a lofty position in heaven since Israel has rejected its Messiah. This would mean that all Jews would go to heaven apart from Christ.

Also, there are three characters in this passage - the male child, the serpent, and the woman. The first two are individuals, not groups. So it would be natural for the woman to be an individual person, too.

Interestingly, the Church is called the Bride of Christ in holy scripture, not the brides of Christ. Also, Israel is called the wife of Jehovah, not the wives of Jehovah
 
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