What saves a person?

klutedavid said:

That is what the scripture states, that is not my opinion Jason. Salvation is by grace, and that is the free gift.

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But you are only looking at one side of Scripture.
The Bible has also many warnings against sin and how it can destroy (even the believer's soul).

You are also only looking at one side of reality in regards to gifts, too.
We know that a person can destroy a free gift by being irresponsible with it.
For if Rick receive a car as a free gift, that does not mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians. Rick would not have his free gift for very long if he were to do that.

Salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

It is not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:4-7).

The righteousness of God is imputed to us apart from works (Romans 4:1-8).

Grace and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation (Romans 11:5-6).

Yes, @Jason0047, there are two sides to the coin of scriptural truth.

On the one side (tails) is the law; those verses that tell us the perfect requirement of holiness that God has for all those who would desire to be saved through what they do/ their works/ their obedience/ their keeping of the law.

On the other side (heads) is the offer of forgiveness that we have through faith in Jesus Christ.

The tails side shows us that we need forgiveness.

The heads side reveals to us the salvation of the Lord.

justbyfaith said:

Yes, @Jason0047, there are two sides to the coin of scriptural truth.

On the one side (tails) is the law; those verses that tell us the perfect requirement of holiness that God has for all those who would desire to be saved through what they do/ their works/ their obedience/ their keeping of the law.

On the other side (heads) is the offer of forgiveness that we have through faith in Jesus Christ.

The tails side shows us that we need forgiveness.

The heads side reveals to us the salvation of the Lord.

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This all does not mean anything because you say you are a justified sinner.
You cannot live holy or obey God's commands if you claim defeat from out of the starting gate of the race. A person cannot serve two masters (God and sin). The Bible talks about how we can overcome grievous sin in this life. If one is not in line with God's program in doing that, then they are seeking to rebel against God.

@Jason0047, your presence on these boards and how you deal with the scriptures makes me think of John 5:39-40. Now I know that you will think that I am persecuting you. However, from my perspective, I feel that I am simply trying to wake you up so that your eyes can be opened to the truth.

Jason0047 said:

This all does not mean anything because you say you are a justified sinner.

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I have a specific reason for doing that.

However I want you to know that I am all in with verses like 1 John 3:9, Hebrews 10:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Jude 1:24, and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

justbyfaith said:

Salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

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Works Alone Salvationism. For a man who boasts in his works in being saved is not doing works of faith after being saved by God's grace. Paul mentions the necessity of works of faith in Ephesians 2:10. But he says in Ephesians 2:8-9 in how we are initially and ultimately saved. Paul says in Romans 8:13 that works of faith (not works of the Law) do play a part in our salvation. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that God has chosen us for salvation by two things. Belief of the truth and by the Sanctification of the Spirit. Paul says in Romans 11 that if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you can also be cut off like the Jews.

It is not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:4-7).

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Correct. Again, it is talking about Works Alone Salvationism. We are not saved by Works Alone but we are ultimately saved by God's grace and His giving us a new heart; But if you were to skip back a chapter, it says,

11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; " (Titus 2:11-12).

Titus 1:16 says we can deny God by a lack of works.
So yes. You need works, too.

The righteousness of God is imputed to us apart from works (Romans 4:1-8).

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The works of the Law of Moses and not the Laws of Christ.
Romans 3:1 says, "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?"

Why else do you think Paul makes his point involving circumcision in Romans 4:9-12? Please read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism."

You said:

Grace and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation (Romans 11:5-6).

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Who was Paul talking to in Romans 11?
He was talking to Jews.

This is the context.

justbyfaith said:

@Jason0047, your presence on these boards and how you deal with the scriptures makes me think of John 5:39-40. Now I know that you will think that I am persecuting you. However, from my perspective, I feel that I am simply trying to wake you up so that your eyes can be opened to the truth.

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You told me I believe in a false gospel. That is persecution because I believe I have the right gospel.

As for John 5:39-40:

Well, if we are to read this passage at face value as the same as me, you are again persecuting or attacking me by your assuming I have not come to Jesus. I have asked the Lord Jesus to be my Savior back in 1992 by way of a Chick tract called, "This was your life." Back in 2011 or so, I have come to debate against Eternal Security and other similar versions of it since that time very heavily on various forums. If there is one belief I consider to be the most wrong, it is that particular belief. A person is only conditionally secure in God's promises if they choose to abide in the Lord. God does not force us to be saved. Forced Salvationism would be more in line with Calvinism, and I find that to be even more offensive (on a moral level) and even more unbiblical.

I have studied this issue for years. I know my Bible. I know all the excuses. Sorry, many have tried (Who were able to respond with Scripture verses I have given to them before) over the years and they have failed. Why? Because what they teach is not in the Bible. They twist the Scriptures plain meaning in what it says and they cannot for the life of themselves make a real world example (parable) for Eternal Security that fits how things truly work in real life.

justbyfaith said:

I have a specific reason for doing that.

However I want you to know that I am all in with verses like 1 John 3:9, Hebrews 10:14, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Jude 1:24, and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

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But this is preaching a double message. That is like Rick saying he is justified serial killer by having a belief on Jesus and yet he later says that we cannot be serial killers and still saved. He is refuting himself. His belief is a contradiction. His belief would also be immoral.

Jason0047 said:

I have asked the Lord Jesus to be my Savior back in 1992 by way of a Chick tract called, "This was your life."

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I'm certain that it is no coincidence that I accepted Christ as my Lord and Saviour through the same tract in 1986.

Jason0047 said:

Please quote me where it says in the Bible that we are saved by the finished work of Christ and not by any works of faith that comes later and I will believe you.

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Romans 4:5

Galatians 2:21

Galatians 2:16

John 5:24

Romans 11:6

Ephesians 2:8

Philippians 3:9

John 1:12

Romans 4:1-4:25

justbyfaith said:

I'm certain that it is no coincidence that I accepted Christ as my Lord and Saviour through the same tract in 1986.

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I believe there are no coincidences, too. I can say that this coincidence is for me to reach you with God's Word, as well. But I will let the weight of Scripture and real world examples be the bulk of my argument or case with a healthy dose of prayer and not just my words alone.

Archer_on_Fire said:

Romans 4:5

Galatians 2:21

Galatians 2:16

John 5:24

Romans 11:6

Ephesians 2:8

Philippians 3:9

John 1:12

Romans 4:1-4:25

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Exact quote please.

No verse says that salvation is in the finished work of Christ alone and it does not include works of faith that follows God's grace.

Neostarwcc said:

Obviously Jesus saves as he is the only name to call upon to be saved. But what constitutes salvation? What saves a person?

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Jesus doesn't just save us; he is salvation itself. (1 John 5:11-12)

Neostarwcc said:

So it must be that every person who believes the gospel and calls upon the Lord for salvation will be saved right? Or am I missing something?

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I would add repentance to those things integral to the Gospel and salvation, as Jesus and the apostles did. (Matthew 4:17; Mark 6:12; Acts 3:19)

Also, I would say that not any sort of belief or exercise of faith will do when it comes to salvation. James makes it very clear that a saving faith anticipates corresponding behaviour, it expects to live in accord and in manifestation of the truths of the Gospel. A saving faith is not merely intellectual assent. (James 2:19-20)

Justbyfaith:

You have to convince me how it is morally superior of your position than mine to say that believers can say they are "justified sinners." This to me is starting out at an immoral position to begin with. Convince me how it is good using a real world example in saying we are evil people and how that leads us into being good guys.

From my experience in real life, if you focus on the negative or in affirming you are bad, then you are going to attract those bad things to you and make that your reality. Any hope of doing good or being good fades away into the dust.

Alcoholics join drug programs and can overcome the sin of alcoholism. This by a human program they can overcome sin. But with Jesus, He can help a believer to do so much more (See Romans 13:14, and 1 John 3:8).

When you say you are a justified sinner, you are implying that you can never truly obey God ever because you are declaring you are sinner. A person declares themselves to be a certain way based on their actions. A fire fighter is a fire fighter because he fights fires. He could be an ex fire fighter because he retired or something, but he would not currently be a fire fighter if he retired.

Jason0047 said:

But this is preaching a double message. That is like saying Rick saying he is justified serial killer by having a belief on Jesus and yet he later says that we cannot be serial killers and still saved. He is refuting himself. His belief is a contradiction. His belief would also be immoral.

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It seems to me that you are saying that we must be absolutely perfect in order to be saved.

For if being a serial killer is the same as all other sins, then if we commit any sin, it is on the level of mass murder and therefore we would be put in hell for doing it.

We would have to be made absolutely perfect in order to be saved; and therefore if we were somehow made perfect but then later sinned; we messed up; we would no longer be saved; we would have to start all over again. The minutest sin would put us out of the kingdom.

In such a scenario, salvation is not through forgiveness of sins through faith in the blood of Jesus but is based on becoming worthy of heaven whether we are forgiven or not. We would be accepted on the basis of being worthy and our former sins wouldn't matter even if they weren't forgiven because our current state is perfection and therefore it doesn't matter what we did in the past. But if we commit some minute sin in the present or the future after having been perfected, then we are in a load of deep doo-doo because now we are no longer worthy of heaven. So if we die in that state we have now been separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, through things present or things to come.

And this is simply not biblical.

'nuff said!

justbyfaith said:

It seems to me that you are saying that we must be absolutely perfect in order to be saved.

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Perfection as described in the Bible is another issue or topic. I believe perfection is some instances mentioned in the Bible (based on the context used) does not relate to our salvation. Discussing Perfectionism is not permitted in this particular thread or section of the forums.

I believe that a believer has to generally walk uprightly in this life by not committing grievous sin (like murder, lying, adultery, etc.) and they cannot teach a greasy grace gospel that can lead people into committing grievous sin (with them thinking they are not in any danger spiritually).

You said:

For if being a serial killer is the same as all other sins, then if we commit any sin, it is on the level of mass murder and therefore we would be put in hell for doing it.

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All sin is not the same. The Bible even tells you this fact.

"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17).
Yet, Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death.

Jesus says there is a greater sin (John 19:11). So that means there are degrees to sin. Not all sins are the same. In Matthew 12:31-32 says that speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven, and yet speaking bad words (blasphemy) against the Son can be forgiven. 1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism is not for salvation. Baptism saves us in having a cleansed conscience, but it does not cleanse us from the filth of the flesh (sin).

Even humans (in the real world) do not regards all sins the same. Going 5 mph per hour over the speed limit while driving is not considered the same kind of offense as say... murdering somebody.

I say this because Jesus made real world examples all the time. They are called Parables.

Jason0047 said:

Exact quote please.

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You're perfectly capable of looking them up yourself.

Archer_on_Fire said:

You're perfectly capable of looking them up yourself.

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No. I have read the New Testament many times and I am pretty sure that phrase you used is not in those verses. So I am asking you to quote the verse you think uses that exact phrase.

justbyfaith said:

It seems to me that you are saying that we must be absolutely perfect in order to be saved.

For if being a serial killer is the same as all other sins, then if we commit any sin, it is on the level of mass murder and therefore we would be put in hell for doing it.

We would have to be made absolutely perfect in order to be saved; and therefore if we were somehow made perfect but then later sinned; we messed up; we would no longer be saved; we would have to start all over again. The minutest sin would put us out of the kingdom.

In such a scenario, salvation is not through forgiveness of sins through faith in the blood of Jesus but is based on becoming worthy of heaven whether we are forgiven or not. We would be accepted on the basis of being worthy and our former sins wouldn't matter even if they weren't forgiven because our current state is perfection and therefore it doesn't matter what we did in the past. But if we commit some minute sin in the present or the future after having been perfected, then we are in a load of deep doo-doo because now we are no longer worthy of heaven. So if we die in that state we have now been separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, through things present or things to come.

And this is simply not biblical.

'nuff said!

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Exactly. I thank God that He led me out of that type of thinking.