Physical Kingdom Problems

BABerean2 said:

I do not have to explain your interpretation of an Old Testament text.

You have to explain how your interpretation of that text agrees with the words of Christ, and with Paul, and with John in the passages that I posted.

If you cannot do that, then your interpretation of that Old Testament text is wrong.

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So IOW you are admitting you can't show how immortal saved ones can be under the threat of plagues throughout all eternity, which would have to be the case if they are immortal. But if they are not immortal, and that there is a thousand years after Christ returns, the texts make sense then. But you apparently would rather have us believe that blessed saved immortal saints would be under the threat of plagues throughout all of eternity. No one could possibly be so naive to believe something so silly like that, yet you apparently must think some people are that naive since you apparently expect others to agree with your conclusions here.

Dave L said:

Revelation 20 covers the entire New Covenant era. Only the end of the world and the new heavens and earth remain unfulfilled.

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So reigning with Christ a thousand years is not the same as sitting with Him in His throne, correct?

DavidPT said:

I can see myself being onboard with your understanding of Ezekiel's temple, yet you failed to explain what all the animal sacrificing is all about, in regards to that temple. We can't ignore any of that, it is clearly in the texts.

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The burnt offering, sin offering, and guilt offerings were only shadows of Christ's ONCE FOR ALL offering
Ezekiel 40:39 In the portico of the gateway were two tables on each side, on which the burnt offerings, sin offerings and guilt offerings were slaughtered
Ezekiel 42:13 There they will put the most holy offerings—the grain offerings, the sin offerings f and the guilt offerings—for the place is holy
Ezekiel 44:29 They will eat the grain offerings, the sin offerings and the guilt offerings

Hebrews 10:8-10 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL

Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (guilt) and our bodies washed with pure water

It is the prince, who provides the offerings at the festivals, New moons, and Sabbaths. It is the duty of the prince to provide the offering to make atonement for God's people. These clearly shadows Christ's work on the cross for his body, his bride.
Ezekiel 45:15-17 These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, p grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

1 John 2:2 He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things coming, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Jesus is the prince who provided his free will offering, by laying down his life of his own accord. Notice the gate facing east is then opened for him (Christ's ascension to heaven)
Ezekiel 46:12 ‘When the prince provides a freewill offering to the Lord—whether a burnt offering or fellowship offerings—the gate facing east is to be opened for him.

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
1 John 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

The shadow is that these things needed to be offered, daily, yearly, continuously in order to purify, cleanse, and atone, hence the picture of the priests and prince offering continuous sacrifices. The true reality is that daily, yearly, and continuously, the body of Christ is purified, cleansed, and atoned by ONE ACT, ONCE FOR ALL: the cross.
Hebrews 10:10,14 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The sacrifices that we now perform in service to God in his temple and city are:
Hebrews 13:15-16 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased

Notice the shadow of the feast of unleavened bread contains many animal sacrifices
Numbers 29:17-25On the fifteenth day of this month there is to be a festival; for seven days eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. Present to the Lord a food offering consisting of a burnt offering of two young bulls, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. With each bull offer a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil; with the ram, two-tenths; and with each of the seven lambs, one-tenth. Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you. Offer these in addition to the regular morning burnt offering. In this way present the food offering every day for seven days as an aroma pleasing to the Lord; it is to be offered in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering. On the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

However, The true reality of the feast of unleavened bread involves no animal sacrifices, for Christ has fulfilled them for our atonement:
1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This is true for Ezekiel's temple: The shadow of the body of Christ contains the shadow of the once for all offering made by Christ.

Dave L said:

“and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

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But that is not meaning literally, correct? Therefore it must be understood spiritually. and if so, that presents a problem for Revelation 20:4, since John apparently sees the souls of those who have physically died, and that they are the ones reigning with Christ a thousand years. How could Ephesians 2:6 possibly apply to them, because that would then mean Ephesians 2:6 is meaning literally after all, and not spiritually instead.

Dave L said:

The kingdom, now present consists of all in heaven and believers on earth. Kingdom of God/Heaven are the same.

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So IOW, Ephesians 2:6 is being applied both spiritually and literally? I guess that's a possibility, yet I still don't feel Ephesians 2:6 is meaning in both senses though.

DavidPT said:

A----the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

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The resurrection
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people

DavidPT said:

B----And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

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Great tribulation of Jerusalem

Plagues that cause flesh and tongues to rot:
Zechariah 14:12 This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths

Revelation 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and loathsome, malignant sores broke out on those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image
Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish 11and curse the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds.

People seized with fear:
Zechariah 14:13 On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic.
Luke 21:26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world..

During the Jewish-Roman war, the main part of the war took place inside of Jerusalem between the 3 zealot factions.
Zechariah 14:13-14 They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. Judah too will fight at Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

DavidPT said:

C----every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem

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I would argue this is where Amillennialism has a more difficult time answering Zechariah 14. The Jerusalem of Zechariah 14:11 is clearly the New Jerusalem
Zechariah 14:11 they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely
Revelation 22:2 no longer will there be any curse

So how can their be unbelievers (those that do not go up to Jerusalem to worship nor receive rain) exist after the New Jerusalem?

It seems that revelation 22 has that answer: The New Jerusalem (body of Christ) provides healing for the nations after the city and sanctuary are destroyed.
Revelation 22:2 down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, producing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:15 Outside (the body of Christ; New Jerusalem) are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

DavidPT said:

No one could possibly be so naive to believe something so silly like that, yet you apparently must think some people are that naive since you apparently expect others to agree with your conclusions here.

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I expect you to agree with the conclusions of Christ, and Paul, and John.

Is that to much to ask?

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Dave L said:

Revelation 20 covers the entire New Covenant era. Only the end of the world and the new heavens and earth remain unfulfilled.

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Not true .
The rapture hasn't happened yet.
The 7 year tribulation hasn't happened yet.
The Second Coming of Christ hasn't happened yet.
Armageddon hasn't happened yet.
The 1,000 year reign of Christ hasn't happened yet.
The great white throne judgment hasn't happen yet.

claninja said:

The burnt offering, sin offering, and guilt offerings were only shadows of Christ's ONCE FOR ALL offering
Ezekiel 40:39 In the portico of the gateway were two tables on each side, on which the burnt offerings, sin offerings and guilt offerings were slaughtered
Ezekiel 42:13 There they will put the most holy offerings—the grain offerings, the sin offerings f and the guilt offerings—for the place is holy
Ezekiel 44:29 They will eat the grain offerings, the sin offerings and the guilt offerings

Hebrews 10:8-10 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL

Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (guilt) and our bodies washed with pure water

It is the prince, who provides the offerings at the festivals, New moons, and Sabbaths. It is the duty of the prince to provide the offering to make atonement for God's people. These clearly shadows Christ's work on the cross for his body, his bride.
Ezekiel 45:15-17 These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, p grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

1 John 2:2 He is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things coming, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Jesus is the prince who provided his free will offering, by laying down his life of his own accord. Notice the gate facing east is then opened for him (Christ's ascension to heaven)
Ezekiel 46:12 ‘When the prince provides a freewill offering to the Lord—whether a burnt offering or fellowship offerings—the gate facing east is to be opened for him.

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
1 John 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

The shadow is that these things needed to be offered, daily, yearly, continuously in order to purify, cleanse, and atone, hence the picture of the priests and prince offering continuous sacrifices. The true reality is that daily, yearly, and continuously, the body of Christ is purified, cleansed, and atoned by ONE ACT, ONCE FOR ALL: the cross.
Hebrews 10:10,14 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The sacrifices that we now perform in service to God in his temple and city are:
Hebrews 13:15-16 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased

Notice the shadow of the feast of unleavened bread contains many animal sacrifices
Numbers 29:17-25On the fifteenth day of this month there is to be a festival; for seven days eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. Present to the Lord a food offering consisting of a burnt offering of two young bulls, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. With each bull offer a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah of the finest flour mixed with oil; with the ram, two-tenths; and with each of the seven lambs, one-tenth. Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you. Offer these in addition to the regular morning burnt offering. In this way present the food offering every day for seven days as an aroma pleasing to the Lord; it is to be offered in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering. On the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

However, The true reality of the feast of unleavened bread involves no animal sacrifices, for Christ has fulfilled them for our atonement:
1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This is true for Ezekiel's temple: The shadow of the body of Christ contains the shadow of the once for all offering made by Christ.

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Do you have an explanation for something such as the following then?

Ezekiel 44:17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.


Let's skip down to the following which is also part of this same context.

Ezekiel 44:26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.


The first thing to note is who the speaker is here. Is it not God Himself? And didn't God say----And it shall come to pass---which would also have to include what He said in verse 26 and 27 as well? So how is it that God can declare something shall come to pass, except it never actually comes to pass without making God out to be a liar in the process? Why would He say these things shall come to pass if He already knew they wouldn't? I thought God wasn't capable of lying? And how is it possible to be misunderstanding what God was meaning in verse 26-27? He intended for one to take those things literally, Didn't He?

BTW, if I'm not careful here, I might end up talking myself out of concluding no animal sacrificing ever again. How should one reason the things above, the fact God is the speaker, and He very clearly and plainly indicated these things shall come to pass? Do you have any other examples where God declared something would come to pass, but that it never did?

Dave L said:

We are Christ's body. We are seated with him in heaven. If he is God, who rules the universe, why would he want a physical kingdom in Canaan, doing what he already does best from heaven?

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When He returns, it will be Jesus physically returning. There are no depictions of Jesus, while in a physical body, being in numerous places at the same time, not that He couldn't be if He wanted to. That means His physical body will have to be taking up residence somewhere on this planet when He returns. Why not in the Middle East then? I seriously doubt He plans on taking up residence in Texas instead, or California, or New York, etc.

Dave L said:

The Ninevites?

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Wasn't that prophecy conditional though? I'm not seeing in the text I submitted from Ezekiel 44, that this coming to pass of these things have conditions attached to them. Or maybe they are there and I'm just not seeing them?

claninja said:

I would argue this is where Amillennialism has a more difficult time answering Zechariah 14. The Jerusalem of Zechariah 14:11 is clearly the New Jerusalem
Zechariah 14:11 they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely
Revelation 22:2 no longer will there be any curse

So how can their be unbelievers (those that do not go up to Jerusalem to worship nor receive rain) exist after the New Jerusalem?

It seems that revelation 22 has that answer: The New Jerusalem (body of Christ) provides healing for the nations after the city and sanctuary are destroyed.
Revelation 22:2 down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, producing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:15 Outside (the body of Christ; New Jerusalem) are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

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Could you remind me where you are placing the time of the NHNE and NJ in Revelation 21-22? Was it before or after the 2nd coming that you place this?

I notice that you acknowledge that these would be unbelievers going up to Jerusalem. That's a plus.


Here's some of my line of thinking, though I expect you to disagree since you apparently don't think a thousand years fits with a time post the 2nd coming.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


The first thing to note, the context makes mention of the NHNE. Verse 23 sounds somewhat like Zechariah 14:16 to me. Notice in verse 24----And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me. What would be the nearest antecedent of they in verse 24? Would it not be all flesh that shall come to worship before Him?

Try looking at it like the following then.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Why would they be going forth, looking upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Him, unless it was a stark reminder and a dire warning, that if you, too, transgress against me, you, too, will end up like these? Would this threat and reminder be in affect for all of eternity though, or just a small portion of it, say a thousand years?

And then we have the following to add, which also appears to transpire during the NHNE.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.


How can that be fulfilled after the following has already been fulfilled, meaning Revelation 20:7-15? Those in Isaiah 60:12 their fate would be the LOF judgment, obviously, except the LOF judgment would be history and never something that's ever going to happen again once Revelation 20:7-15 fulfilled. What I'm getting at then, if Isaiah 60:12 is meaning during the NHNE, and that the NNE are meaning after Christ returns, then so does Revelation 20:7-15 have to be meaning after Christ returns, in order to fulfill Isaiah 60:12 before the LOF judgments are past history to never happen again for forever.


It seems to me none of the all flesh in Isaiah 66:23 would be including immortal saints though. They would already be before Him worshiping Him, thus wouldn't need to come and do that since they would already be doing that by dwelling where He is dwelling, that being in the NJ.