(Orthodox) Who are our brothers in Christ?

Tolworth John

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That certainly goes both ways ... ironically IMO.

Christians in a number of Orthodox countries are confused when "missionaries" come and try to "convert them to Christianity".

Again what is a Christian?
Does being baptised etc into a faith, but never practising it make one a Christian?
Just because one is white and living in the west does not make one a Christian, neither does a ceremony performed on a small child.

It is each persons choice to follow jesus that makes them a Christian.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That depends on what you mean by 'brotherhood'.
if its sharing in politics, sport, a pop idol etc yes but being a brother in the Lord no.

yes, again, I never said they are our brothers in the Lord. what I said was that if we can treat them as brothers when they aren't Christians, we Orthodox can certainly do it for the heterodox.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Again what is a Christian?
Does being baptised etc into a faith, but never practising it make one a Christian?
Just because one is white and living in the west does not make one a Christian, neither does a ceremony performed on a small child.

It is each persons choice to follow jesus that makes them a Christian.
My point is that that determination is for God to make.

If I'm deciding whether a person is "Christian enough" to go into a ministry or business with them, marry, etc. then I can carefully consider whether they show by their character, words, and actions that it would be a good fit.

However, if it's only a question of will I treat them as a Christian, then if they claim Christ, that's enough for me. It's not my place to judge their current standing with God, their walk or their struggles, etc. I would simply treat them as I would any other brother in Christ.

And if they claim not to be Christian, then I will assume they are telling the truth, and regard them as a human made in the image of God and precious to Him. And pray for them.

Baptism in Orthodoxy is entrance into the Body of Christ. Ultimately judgement is in the hands of Christ alone. But we never assume that we are "already saved" just because we've been baptized. St. Paul speaks frequently on the need to persevere in the faith.

Baptism (or anything else we might do - so we would not regard the simple recitation of a particular prayer as such) is not in itself a "get out of hell free card".

I hope that helps.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Here ya go :)
http://roboam.com/BB_E_Orthodox_Manual.pdf

Also, during the Athens Olympics, YWAM and other evangelical groups were targeting Orthodox christians all over Greece.
Thanks for posting the link. :)

I looked at it, but that's not the one I remember from before. It could be an updated version, or from another source.

The one I read (and it's been some years) was either laughable, or tragic (depending on your pov). I guess I'm quite glad that with some searching, I actually can't find it.

This summary, however, is quite similar.

https://www.imb.org/2016/12/29/how-to-share-the-gospel-among-the-eastern-european-orthodox/

But I guess I'm glad that a bad book has either disappeared from the Internet or can't be easily found in a search.
 
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Dorothea

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I certainly do. For one thing, I know my family members are following Christ as best they can, and better than me. And it seems to me as if saying someone is *not* a brother/sister in Christ is like judging their salvation, which I certainly couldn't do. That's just the way it seems to me. Others may have a different take on it.
Ditto. I feel the same way.
 
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prodromos

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Thanks for posting the link. :)

I looked at it, but that's not the one I remember from before. It could be an updated version, or from another source.

The one I read (and it's been some years) was either laughable, or tragic (depending on your pov). I guess I'm quite glad that with some searching, I actually can't find it.

This summary, however, is quite similar.

https://www.imb.org/2016/12/29/how-to-share-the-gospel-among-the-eastern-european-orthodox/

But I guess I'm glad that a bad book has either disappeared from the Internet or can't be easily found in a search.
I thought you might have been talking about something else, because the document I linked to isn't actually that bad in that they don't misinterpret what we believe, they simply believe it is wrong.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I thought you might have been talking about something else, because the document I linked to isn't actually that bad in that they don't misinterpret what we believe, they simply believe it is wrong.
Yes. I think someone posted a link to it here, about 5 years ago? I just remember how far off it was on everything (and I didn't know much at all myself yet).

I'm just as glad it's no longer there. And most of the pages that come up in response to my search terms are about various folks having already become Orthodox. :)
 
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archer75

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I thought you might have been talking about something else, because the document I linked to isn't actually that bad in that they don't misinterpret what we believe, they simply believe it is wrong.
Yeah, I had a glance at the document from @prodromos and it was less totally off-base than I expected. This kind of things has to give rise to some weird conversations, though.
 
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Light of the East

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Let me pull the pin on this grenade.........

I have a habit of thinking that others who are not Orthodox or Catholic are Christians and some of them (probably most of them) love Jesus better than me.

I still think their worship "services" are nuts!!!!! **

** I'm thinking here primarily of the Jimmy Swaggart, Westboro Baptist, and some brands of Evangelicalism types.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Should we call non-Trinitarians brothers and sisters?
I figure whether someone really is in Christ in the end, only God knows.

Technically there's no way to consider them part of "the Body" in the sense that one is received in a Trinitarian formula. So I can't argue and say they are. (But see point one above - I won't argue and say I know they aren't or won't be either.)

When speaking to them directly, if it comes up, I won't deny them being my brother/sister. Mainly because it's not my place to judge?

This is all from a personal point of view, not speaking for the Church. I don't know why the Church would be asked to judge anyone, but I don't think she can affirm that they are our brothers and sisters. Again though - she might be unwilling to deny on a personal level. Though she certainly teaches that God has revealed Himself to us in the Holy Trinity and that is the only true belief.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Should we call non-Trinitarians brothers and sisters?

depends on what you mean. yes in the sense that we pray at Pascha to call brothers even those that hate us, but we would not say they are brothers and sisters in the faith.

so yes and no.
 
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Not David

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depends on what you mean. yes in the sense that we pray at Pascha to call brothers even those that hate us, but we would not say they are brothers and sisters in the faith.

so yes and no.
Ok, I'm asking because when I was Protestant, I was supposed to consider non-Trinitarians "brothers and sisters". When I decided to get into Orthodoxy, I was not sure, especially since they are not part of the Orthodox Church but I would have to do the same with Protestants and Catholics.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Ok, I'm asking because when I was Protestant, I was supposed to consider non-Trinitarians "brothers and sisters". When I decided to get into Orthodoxy, I was not sure, especially since they are not part of the Orthodox Church but I would have to do the same with Protestants and Catholics.

yeah, again, it depends on what you mean because they certainly are not brethren according to the faith.
 
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Lukaris

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Should we call non-Trinitarians brothers and sisters?

I would not but would still feel that the Lord would still call people among them as blessed according to most of His Beatitudes ( & realizing I am definitely not).
 
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~Anastasia~

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I do not feel comfortable calling Baptists and most evangelical types Christian because most of them do not believe in Theosis. Most seem to believe man decides who is saved instead of God. Very disturbing.
Welcome to CF.

One of the things I do is to meet with people who visit the Church during our yearly festival, and some have questions about what we believe and how it compares to their beliefs. Baptists/evangelicals are a large portion of the population here.

If you tell them we believe that we become like God by participating in the divine nature, they will recoil, assuming we believe that we assume God's very Essence and "become God". Of course we don't believe that either!

But if you explain that we believe that we cooperate with the grace of God, and by our actions, thoughts, and so on are transformed to be more and more like Christ, and that ultimately by the time we reach the stage of the life to come, God transforms us to be completely in Christ's likeness, and that we will be in perfect communion with God for eternity and that IS salvation - most agree wholeheartedly. The major difference in what they mostly believe is that most tend to think that even if we ourselves fall short, God will certainly and automatically complete the process. (And who knows - for very many I hope He will!)

So really, they do believe ultimately that God is more in charge of the process than us. Most of them do believe we must choose God, but then so do we, as we do not believe God merely selects some and rejects others and forces us into that path regardless of our own hearts as some Protestants believe.

They do not share our beliefs perfectly of course, but theosis is not really the biggest hurdle. The intercession of the Saints and that we honor them is easily misunderstood by many to be "worshipping" the Saints, because of anti-Catholic rhetoric they've been taught. In reality, many of them DO accept unofficially that their pious loved ones are in heaven and concerned about their lives, maybe "watching over them" and they might even ask Grandma to speak to Jesus for them - very unofficially and they wouldn't call this a "prayer" because for them prayer often equals worship, not simply asking.

The words we use tend to be bigger stumbling blocks than actual beliefs. And actual beliefs tend to vary a LOT so that it's hard to completely pin some groups down. Evangelicals are of such a recent innovation that they vary quite a bit, and Baptists vary quite a bit such that there are many labels for what kind of Baptist they are, and even then they may not find a congregation they perfectly agree with.
 
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I do not feel comfortable calling Baptists and most evangelical types Christian because most of them do not believe in Theosis. Most seem to believe man decides who is saved instead of God. Very disturbing.
Which group do you call Christian besides Orthodox?
 
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